Just wondering which brands of pianos have a darker more mellow tone? I know a lot depends on how a piano is voiced, but traditionally(?) speaking.

Blüthner, Steingraeber & Söhne, what else?

I'd add to that a Walter 175 and, depending on prep/setup, certain NY Steinways. I wouldn't describe my experience with Estonias as a dark sound, but I generally find them more mellow than certain European and Asian makes.

Based on my experience with these two makes, I would not describe their house style sound as mellow. The Steingraeber in particular has a very big, bold sound.

In my personal opinion, I would have to go with Bösendorfer, Blüthner, and Shigeru Kawai for warm, dark and mellow.

In my experience, Shigeru Kawai are not all that mellow, nor dark. Some good NY Steinways suit the description. I recall Seiler having a dark tone, though it was not particularly mellow, but not bright.

Steingraeber is super bright... here in Europe anyway....

Try Bosendorfer

The Steingraebers I've played (and I've played a lot of them) have been all over the place, but usually on the brighter side. At the factory, they're bright, and the ones I've played in Chicago are, too. However, the Steingraebers I've played at Hurstwood Farm and Atlantic Music Center not as much. Different voicing preferences, I imagine....

If you read all these replies I think the answer to the OP s question would have to be : it all depends on who's ears are listening to which particular piano on which particular day.
My shigeru is incredibly warm and dark. Ive also played some very bright sounding specimens.
I just played a Bluthner for the first time yesterday at Allegro in NYC and found the sound to have very little colour. I would classify the sound of that piano as bright and fundamental -- not unlike some of the C. Bechsteins I've tried.
These types of threads are always going to get subjective answers. (Unless someone comes up with a standardized definition of what dark and warm means and then employs a scientific process to quantify a piano's level of darkness and warmth)

I full agree. The classical and full sound from old Blüthners was mellow with deep bass... Actually they have changed many things. Personally I think they are more in the bright/superficial side.

I find your experience with Bluther interesting. Considering Bluther is one of the best piano money can buy, one should expect a colorful sound, do we? do you think this is an isolated case?

Steingraebers are generally an inherently darker piano. However, the factory preference for voicing can be very bright and aggressive. This type of voicing can give one a very good sense of the power, range and energy of an instrument, but it is definitely not to everyone's taste. It is quite intentional on the part of the Steingraeber techs.
One can request that the Steingraeber factory voice a piano warmer (they would call this a more romantic voicing).

Udo Steingraeber is very wary of American techs who voice down Steingraebers. It is not because the Steingraeber does not respond to a warmer type voicing, but because he has personally heard Steingraebers voiced down in a way that killed the tone and that he felt no longer had the Steingraeber voice.

One of the best complements we have ever received was when Udo Steingraeber heard a concert on a Steingraeber that we had voiced and prepared to be much warmer and darker than the factory voicing and he exclaimed that it was the first time he had heard that type of voicing that still maintained the absolute authentic and undiminished voice and sound of a Steingraeber. We then demonstrated that the piano had more dynamic range in both directions, partially because of our voicing approach. We also demonstrated that the very aggressive dramatic type sound that Udo insists be in his pianos was still absolutely available, but the pianist had to work a bit harder to get at it.
A piano can be dark and not warm. A piano can also be warm and not dark. A piano can be dark and warm, but limited in its expressive/color/dynamic range. A piano can be cold and sterile sounding but also quite expressive and versatile.
I always consider the most important thing to be the expressive versatility of an instrument, and the inherant beauty/darkness/warmth etc of the piano's voice is secondary.

A good NY Steinway is an example of a piano that is warm but not dark. Hope I wasn't rambling too much here.

+1

I always thought of "warm", "dark", and "mellow" as synonyms but clearly Keith and Rotom think of the first two as meaning different things.

Would either of you care to explain how you interpret those two words?

I pretty much agree with you, Keith. Interestingly enough, I'll be meeting Udo for the second time this week, which I'm sure will be an excellent time. Some day, I'll have to visit your place and give your pianos a try!

I must admit that I find it interesting that not one post mentions Sauter pianos. IMHO, Sauter is the most round, mellow tones of all the "Tier 1" pianos.

An example of a piano that is both dark, warm and at the same time expressive is one few will know or have heard already: a genuine 'Stephen Paulello Piano'

With genuine I mean not one of these designs for Hailun/W&L/Feurich or Pleyel but one of those 5 to 7 handmade ones he makes per year in his own workshop.

Below are some 6 videos of Jazz Piano lessons. Unfortunately a lot of talking is going on but if you take the time to go through one of these videos completely - e.g. the first - you will have an idea of the sound nature of these pianos.

I do have quite a few DVD & CD recordings with this piano of both classical music and jazz and I find this piano amazing and different from many other brands:

Antoine Hervé on Stephen Paulello grand piano

schwammerl.

Broadwood is the brand that built pianos with the most daker and mellow tone ever produced. Pleyels of 1830-1869 also offers that kind of sound. They were in his times the very "high end". I don't know where you live, but depending on where you can have one of this (good restored , wich is dificult) in a very reasonable price.

Some videos of this quite unknown brand:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYV7gzPs330

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGKJZVeGMpk

Hi Russell,

I had a chance to try two new Deltas in the past two years. My impression of them was quite different than yours: beautifully made, but certainly more biased toward projection than round and mellow. Is that specific to the model, or just variability of instrument/prep? (notice I eliminated "tone deaf player" as an option...)

Here is a gentleman playing a Sauter Omega

IMHO if there were a "Super Tier 1" for the best of the best, Sauter would be one of only 4 brands in that tier.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4u2qMj5ALs

Higher end pianos tend to have a wider acceptable range for voicing, so as we're already seeing, there is less agreement on what is traditional. Like with Sauter, I've seen both sides as with Steinway, Petrof and many others.

While it is hard for people to agree what they like, it is still harder to agree on the words they use to describe it.

Visit us and take notes in your own words...you can then report all about it on Pianoworld

Sam's right . It's like trying to describe dark chocolate - a task I gleefully would accept. ALSO, I neglected to mention Grotrian,another piano I would describe as having a very round warm tone. IMHO, Bechstein, Steingraeber and Hamburg Steinway are much more aggressive in their approach to sound. Sort of like the difference between Brie and Aged Cheddar. Gee, I think I have a food fetish .

Re: Grotrian, I agree up to a point. I've played a couple of new 6'3" and one model 225. The smaller ones in particular underwent a substantial change to a brighter tone once pushed hard. The 225 could be incredibly docile when played gently, moreso than other 7'6" pianos I've played.

Modern pianos, as they are designed (The material of the hammers, design etc) are for me too bright. Yes there are some good tries to reach a mellow sound, but not mellow enought for me. I'm very sad with most of the pianos from +1940's.
They are not designed to compose classical music.

I don't know about the ultimate dark and mellow pianos ever made, but the 1964 Baldwin L my Dad still owns has a very nice dark tone to it. When I play it I find myself playing slower and more somber tunes than with brighter pianos, it is just perfect for them.

I'll try.

Warmness and darkness are different, right? Would you say a new Yamaha voiced very mellow to have a warm, dark sound? Sure, it may be mellow, but IMO it wouldn't sound dark or warm, rather having a cooler tone (what's the opposite of "dark" in a tonal sense??). Like my teacher's NY Steinway is very bright and is played hard, but i find the tone warm and dark, even though it is bright. And pianos can be warm, but not dark. Or dark but not warm. Or maybe it responds to the player particularly well, where the player wants it to be mellow, or dark, or warm, or bright, and extroverted, or cool (describing sound), the piano does it. But it depends quite a bit on the voicer, and the view/opinion of the person playing or commenting here. That's my view and opinion. Feel free to place your own view, I'd be interested

Folks, I would like to ask you for your opinion about August Förster, Petrof, Bohemia and W.Hoffmann with regarding to dark/mellow tone. Sorry for a little bit off-topic as some of those pianos are not considered higher-end pianos, but all are made in this region (3-4 hours drive from here) so preferred purchase if I'm going to purchase new grand in the future. Thanks! Karel

Not the way I use those words. What do you see as the difference?

Since I use mellow and dark as synonyms, my answer to your first sentence would be yes. I would use "bright" as the opposite of dark(or mellow or warm).

Thanks for posting that Schwammerl. That Stephen Paulello piano is absolutely gorgeous. I won't say that my Hailun 218 is quite as sweet but I *definitely* hear the lineage of Paulello's design coming through in my own piano. Clear and warm and growly at the same time! I absolutely love that sound! I would love to know with what and how Mr Herve recorded the piano to capture so much of the character coming through.

Thanks again,
Ryan

Ryan,

The DVDs were recorded at the studios of 'Koala Group' in France by Colin Roland:

Koala Group

Another recording on the Paulello at the same studio, but this time classical:

Koala-Pianiste Magazine-Paulello

Their YouTube Channel (not all piano recrodinds are on Paulello):

YouTube Colin Laurent

schwammerl.

I traded in a Yamaha C7 for a Bosendorfer 225 because the C7 was too "bright" for the small space. The sound just started to annoy me. The Bosendorfer, with its spruce rim, is probably among the most mellow pianos you can get. Other ones to consider are the Yamaha S6 (or S4), or the Grotrian 225. It's hard to say if what's "dark" to me is dark to you, but all of these have notes that hang around for a while, and more of the fundamental tone sustaining over time.

I am surprised Mason & Hamlin has not come up in this thread. Their new instruments may be somewhat brighter than their golden age ones perhaps, but there's a depth and richness in the M&H tonal ideal that some might call dark or mellow.

Grotrian is the only piano that Larry Fine qualifies "dark" in his book The Piano Book that you can find online

Hello
I would describe the sound of my Grotrian 225 as warm and dark especially in the mid range. May be comparable to the sound of a Boesendorfer of similar size in which the Boesendorfer seems to be a little bit more "refined". On the other side of the spectrum I see the new C.Bechsteins:
very clear and "transparent" but not at all "cold". But: I'm not an expert and this is my very subjective feeling.

Based on my experience playing Blüthner, Bösendorfer, C. Bechstein, Grotrian-Steinweg, Kawai, Yamaha and Steinway grands, Blüthner is easily the most mellow and dark in tone. It's also apparent on CD recordings (Mikhail Pletnev and Artur Pizarro are Blüthner pianists).

I once played an old Feurich grand, and I fell in love with it's dark, vocal, mellow. It wasn't particularly powerful, but it was nice. It was unrestored, and being 97 years old at the time, it was actually in pretty good shape. Just mentioning it, as it seemed to fit the description of "dark and mellow".

But they are nowhere near as bright as they were, maybe 10-15 years ago. These were the first Masons I ever played, and it wasn't a good impression. Of course, the pianos have changed a lot since then, and now I'm a big fan.

If you have room for a 7ft 2in, here's a snippet of my "home recording" of it.... might give you some idea of the sound:

http://www.box.com/s/28llz3nl7f757z0tlr2n

Here's a processed version of the same file: http://www.box.com/s/pcgjnn7zba2vimx4ma2o

Room humidity constant at 42; no tuning stability issues so far (6 months); touch permits very soft playing, absent using soft pedal. Overtones complex.

I like it. Oh... forgot....it's a Hailun 218 squeezed into 14x11ish space with large french doors to open up more when the family is out!

JG