I'm wondering what kind of recording equipment people are using when they post their recordings to the Member Recordings forum. I'd like to be able to record the piano for my own use (listening and analysis mostly), and don't need anything close to professional quality, but still would like a nice clear sound.

Let's say I have $500 to spend. My computer is right beside my piano. What would you recommend I use my money on?

I'm sorry if this question has been asked before, and if it has, kindly direct me to the post.

Video, or would just audio do?

Anyway, while we're waiting on the answer.... here's a thread from when I asked a similar question. I got the answer I was looking for, and it's been great.

Just audio. I'd love a Roland CD-2e (a voice teacher that I accompany for has one and it seems pretty slick) but it is out of my price range at $700+.

And thanks for the link, I'm reading it now!

Great -- that's what I went for. Here's the post on that thread where I talked about what I got. (It was suggested by our member ChopinAddict.)

It's the Edirol (Roland) R-09. I think it cost about $250 -- and it's unbelievably great. I just got done doing an audition recording on it, and I always marvel at how incredibly simple and incredibly great that little thing is.

edit: I just looked up the cost, and looks like it's more than what I said, but it's definitely well under the budget that you mentioned.

Yes, it looks like they are around $400 here in Canada. I love how portable it is! Definitely will be checking that out. Thanks for the quick info .

Ok, now i see there is also a model R-05 which is not quite as high quality, but half the price.

R-09 http://www.rolandus.com/products/productdetails.php?ProductId=960

R-05 http://www.rolandus.com/products/productdetails.php?ProductId=1077

Comparison chart: http://cms.rolandus.com/assets/media/pdf/r-series_brochure.pdf

Research time!

I got curious about that other model so I looked it up -- and, seeing the listing of the features, I didn't notice anything that's missing, compared to the R-09. Looks good! But....

I did find this review on Amazon that compares the two, and finds some issues....it's the last review on this page (the one dated 11/11/2010).

Make sure you check out the Zoom H2 and/or H4 as well (perhaps they're mentioned in the thread Mark linked) - many people here seem happy with them. (I have the H2 and I think it's excellent)

Yes -- various of the Zooms were discussed quite a bit.

looking at the way some recent "ahem" "discussions" have been going, I would invest in a harpsichord, and find a supplier of wax discs.

Does anyone have any comments about the Tascam range of recorders please?

Getting a decent recording is pretty easy nowadays. The portable recorders with good microphones available for $200, $300 maybe $400 tops are convenient and have really amazing fidelity.

Unfortunately for some of us, they will give a high-fidelity stereo recording that's equal parts your piano and the room it is in. It's amazing how many resonances or unpleasant reflections or imbalances your ear "automatically" tunes out when you're hearing the piano live and in person. The recorder will capture all those room shortcomings with a vengeance.

So if you have a good-sounding room you'll get fine results for a couple hundred bucks and an hour or so spent experimenting to get the best microphone placement. If you have a bad-sounding room you won't get very good results without ultimately modifying the room, no matter what kind of recording gear you throw at it.

Thanks everyone for your input. And Rostosky, you made me LOL!

I ordered the Roland R-05 last night -- the shipping was free, and if I'm not happy with it, I can return it to my local Long & McQuade store. I know if I see the R-09, I won't be able to settle for the 05, so I'm just going with the R-05 and pretending I don't know about the R-09.

My husband already hates this forum. On the weekend I announced that we were buying a new piano in the next couple years and now I'm buying recording equipment...

I'm using a set of DPA4060, Jecklin disk and EMU0404. Great audio quality but a bit above your $500. You can find some of my recordings on the ABF recital threads and on sam's recital index. I got much positive feedback on the quality.

Well, Toastburn, I have the Tascam 2488neo, which I like very well. You have to get mikes, cables, stands and all that to use it. It may be more of a production than Lady Chen has in mind, but I see that the price has been slashed to just under $500 US at Sweetwater...

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/manufacturer/TASCAM/popular/all
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/2488neo/

...which is quite a bit less than I paid for it, no doubt because they are going to introduce a new model soon. It serves the same need as the old Tascam PortaStudio that I used to have did, only better. The manual is more than a little arcane, and takes a very significant learning curve, though operation is simple enough once you figure it out. But I really like Tascam's stuff, and have for years.

I notice another model at the same price point...
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/DP03/

...which has condenser mikes built-in, yet also supports XLR ports with phantom power. Maybe it's the bridge between the little handhelds, with their quality and durability limitations, and the full-console models.

Thanks, JeffClef! They all look like lovely gear to have but are beyond what I was considering. A handheld should do me for the time being. Thanks again.

Went to Long & Mcquade and rented two "AKG 414 XLMs" plus a stand and cables. Hooked these up to my daughter's little Macbook through a Fast Track Ultra, which has a "phantom" power setting (whatever that is) that provides power to the mics. I use "garageband" on the Mac, just to record the piano.

My wife has an Edirol, which is excellent. But this bumps everything up to a new level. Not quite "pro" but maybe "prosumer". There are a settings on each of these mics which I don't completely understand, so I just play with them and listen for the best result.

Oh, here's a completely raw mp3 example of the sound...

http://www.box.com/s/28llz3nl7f757z0tlr2n

Here's a processed version of the same file: http://www.box.com/s/pcgjnn7zba2vimx4ma2o

JG

Let me reply to myself. This is a boxy, hard-to-listen-to recording. I have discovered that the AKG 414s, in a small room, MUST sit slightly inside the piano, to avoid picking up the tacky small room ambience.

OK.... back to the drawing board....!!!!

JG

OK...fixed the boxy problem. Mics here are 1 ft inside the piano, halfway between the lid and the strings, coincident, about 1ft apart, right mic angled slightly down towards bass strings, but not directly down; left mic towards treb strings, again, on an angle. O headroom and circular polarity setting on mics. I added some verb. That's it. No compression or any other effects. Excuse the playing... this is to test the recording capabilities of me and my mics!

http://www.box.com/s/pcgjnn7zba2vimx4ma2o

Yes, it is fast, heartless, and for recording purposes only

Wow! That is a really nice sound!

Great sound and great playing John! Too bad you ended it so close to the end as I enjoyed listening to it and wanted to see how you ended this master piece.

I love/hate my H-4. It does a good job of recording, but the controls are very hard to figure out.

Hello,

I was wondering if people with Zoom or Roland recorders would be kind enough to upload a sample so that we can gauge the quality of the recording among the different brands...

Thanks!
MC

My Roland R-05 came today!! Now... where should I put it when I record? I'm playing on an upright.

I need to play around with the settings a bit. Here is my first recording, using out of the box settings.. low gain mic setting. It's a bit quiet.

http://www.box.com/s/ds260sxegs5abkm27ckz

Just throwing in my 2 cents, I have omnidirectional heads on Rode NT5s and a Tascam US122 mkii (this thing sucks). I did quite a bit of research, and I think the best thing for piano is a pair of omnidirectional mics. Directional mics don't sound very realistic when it comes to piano since they tend to have quite biased frequency response as well. Naiant makes some cheap but apparently good quality omni mics. You'll have to get cable and an interface of some sort of course, but under 500 should be easy.

For reference, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDqPeYzuJ...mp;feature=plcp
was recorded with this setup. I know it sounds tinny, but I can attest that to my ears, this is basically exactly what my piano sounds like.

trigalg693:

Bravo!! Wonderful. You play this etude very convincingly.

I also use Rode Nt5 mics with the omni capsule to record my playing. Mics are placed in A-B spaced pair. Lid at full stick. Mics are almost horizontal to the floor directed at the inside of the open lid. About 40 cm apart and about 50 cm away from the side of the piano. Height 130-140 cm and placed at the curve of the piano.

I enjoyed your performance very much.
Thanks for sharing.

regards,

LadyChen, that's very lovely playing and a nice sound! Why don't you post it in Member Recordings? I think people would like to hear it!

It sounds to me like you're getting a very true recording with your settings. If you have any sound-editing software, perhaps you can import your recorded sound file into it and increase the "gain" of the wave before saving the file and converting it to mp3. Does that make any sense to you?

This last week, I have been using my little Tascam DP-004 to make some recordings. It's a pain in the neck. It does an o.k. job recording, I suppose, but managing and handling the files is awkward and cumbersome. I wouldn't recommend it to anyone, but I'll use it since I have it!

--Andy

Thanks Andy. I wanted something that I knew I wouldn't get red-light-nerves with, so i picked an easy favorite. I'm on holidays now, but when I get back, I'd like to record my Chopin nocturne .. but it's amazing how the things that never cause me a problem are suddenly challenging when recording .

Any recommendations for free sound-editing software? Or inexpensive at least? I don't mind paying a bit.

Yes, that stupid, insidious red light. My advice: practice with it on all the time until it becomes a part of the room and you can just ignore it. Also, there is no such thing as an invisible audience. It is you and the piano and the sound. That's all. Focus, LadyChen!

"Audacity" is a free sound editing program. I found it hard to figure out, even after five years of using CoolEdit Pro. I am guessing you are smart, though, and could probably figure it out. Many people on PW use it. CoolEdit morphed into Adobe Audition. It's typical $400-$500 software. I'm not sure what the current product is, but I really liked CoolEdit, and if I had been on the ball at the time, I would have migrated to Adobe Audition. Right now, I use CuBase, because it is what came with my USB interface. I bought DC8 ( clickable: Diamond Cut 8) recently, to use for its noise reduction feature. It has editing capabilities, and for $160, it's not a bad deal. Hopefully, you'll get some suggestions from others.

--Andy

I found Audacity super intuitive and that's what I use. I got Cubase LE with a bunch of stuff for free, and couldn't figure out how to work it. The EQing doesn't sound very good to me but it's not really necessary. I more or less don't really master my stuff.

trigalg693, I get the impression that you know everything. Do you?

I thought Audacity was easy to learn and use, and I'm by no means a techno person.

I use Sony Sound Forge and like it. It is Windows only. There are two versions, Studio for around $65 USD and Pro for around $375. While I use the Pro (I started with it before Sony bought it, and there was just one version, which eventually morphed into Pro), the Studio version looks like it has just about everything you could need.

heh since Cinnamonbear called me out, I take back the statement about EQing being unnecessary.

My point is more, with the equipment/experience that most amateurs have, it's hard to convincingly improve the audio. When I went to music camp, the person who recorded all the stuff added EQ and reverb to rather faithful recordings of a gorgeous Shigeru Kawai SK-9, and it ruined it IMO. The bass on that piano was already strong, and he pumped it up more so the rest of the notes sounded washed out, and the reverb wasn't to my liking. Part of the problem is different headphones and speakers, what sounds good to you from your headphones might sound bad with another pair of headphones or someone with different taste.

Hence, I like leaving the recordings alone, the most I'll do is apply levelling. EQing is fun to mess with but I don't trust my ears enough. When I say Audacity's EQ is bad, take that with a grain of salt. The distortion might just be in my head :P

Called you out?
I thought he was serious!

Ha-ha! I'm not exactly sure what either of you mean! But, yes, EQing is very, very tricky business. You can easily wreck things, but you can also substantially improve them, too. I recall one year going to a live, outdoor concert (an annual, local, multi-stage rock/jazz festival) and at one of the stages where there was music playing that I don't even normally like, I had to stay and listen because the sound guy had managed to bring definition and balance to every single sound that was coming from the five or seven instruments and voices on the stage. I was in awe. I had never heard sound coming from a PA so clearly as that day. I kept going back to that stage all weekend to hear many different bands sound so excellent because of the practiced hands and sensitivity of that sound guy, who was contracted by the venue. Holy smokes, he was good! (I told him so, too! ) The sound coming from the other stages did not even come close to matching the clarity that that guy had going for the musicians under his care.

And yes, trigalg, you are right. The guys that do EQ mastering for a living say that, as you are working on your stuff, you need to run it through a variety of different sound systems and make your compromises and find the happy middle ground, or adjust for the particular application (radio? tv? cd?). Different equipment does different stuff. For example, it is said that JVC speakers are bass-heavy. Also, some playback systems have EQ presets hidden in them that you can't even get to to adjust!

But it seems to me that, if you are making recordings, you owe it to your listener to make their experience as pleasant and meaningful as possible. The art of recording is as important as the art of performance if you are going to record a performance.

--Andy