I'm hoping some teachers can help me or give some insight....

My son is 16.....and is a gifted pianist. He likes to play....and practices a lot--if it's something he likes. He'll get music online and play it for hours.....and practices the music for a worship band he is in.

He takes lessons, also. But in the last few years, getting him to practice anything for his teacher is like pulling teeth. It's boring, he says. Actually, it's technically more difficult than anything he does on his own....but I guess Mozart is not as fun as video game music.

I don't know how hard a line I should take with him.....should I require so much time on "lesson" stuff? His teacher has tried to find things he likes....and will work with him on "his" songs, too. But she wants him to do certain songs sometimes, like songs from the summer competition list (which he cares nothing about, actually). He will practice a couple minutes a day on it...and spend the rest of the time on what he wants.

Am I wasting my money on lessons if the only time he works on his lesson music is during lessons?

Should I just let him quit? Part of me thinks I should be glad he is playing at all and let him be. But I hate shelling out money for lessons when he won't work on it other than during lesson time.

I know he has a gift....but part of the reason he is as good as he is and can do the things with his piano that he can is b/c of his amazing teacher. I hate for him to lose that.

I'm not sure what to do.

Dee

If he likes his teacher, and you approve of the teacher, and the teacher is not overly frustrated, I would just ride with it and keep going as usual.

No one but you can know your finances, but I would absolutely keep paying for lessons.

It might also be time to consider a change in teachers, come the end of this academic year. But a 16yo boy who has not quit piano, and like to play it a lot, is a rare item in our society, and needs fostering. Sometimes fostering = not meddling.

Yes.

If he likes piano enough when he's 24, he can find his own teacher and pay for lessons himself.

I have students who download video game music. In lessons we explore it, talk about the quality of the music, the style, and we talk about notational problems, since such music is often horrendously inaccurate. One thing I was looking at today had an F# in the LH and a Gb in the RH. It was a D7 chord, basically. The music itself I rather liked, and it was quite challenging for me to sightread. There were things there to learn, and this is a student who has only taken lessons a rather short time, started from scratch with me, reads amazingly well after such a short time.

But there is a catch here. I'm the teacher, and if I say that we need to work on something more traditional, even if the more traditional thing has a jazz or pop feel to it, he works hard on that too. There is cooperation.

If there were no cooperation, if he refused to play anything I asked him to play, I would end lessons.

Problem: again we are in a forum situation. We can't tell from what we have heard here if the student is stubborn and unreasonable OR if the teacher is not flexible enough.

At this point I am willing to simply say that EITHER is possible. The student may be talented and held back by the teacher, or the teacher may be excellent, dealing with a pig-headed, stubborn kid.

And it could even be a little of both.

As a parent of a once teen son, I wonder one thing. Should a conversation not be happening between the student and the teacher, where both of them can iron this out?

Yes, but again we do not know if the student is unreasonable, the teacher is inflexible, or if a dialogue has simply never been started.

Thank you guys, I appreciate everyone's advice.

I'll try to answer some of your questions to help better understand things....

His teacher is an amazing pianist (he's not likely ever to outgrow her skills and knowledge) and very patient with him. They have talked about this.....she works on some of his songs (and she points out the very things the pp said about such online music), and they do talk about the value in studying the classical things and he agrees. So at lessons things are fine.....he is agreeable and respectable....and come the next lesson, she tells me how beautifully he plays.....and I tell her, "But he hardly practiced at ALL!" I think sometimes she is too patient with him, although I can tell she does get frustrated, too. Because he could be doing so much more.

I wonder if maybe more detail about what she wants him to get done during the week would help. Like...by next week, be able to play down through the second page, etc. Then it would be clearer to him when he's not doing what he said he would. He's not that motivate about anything at his age....so he plays his piece for 5 minutes, gets bored and moves on to the fun stuff.

I don't want to make it a battle.....I am grateful he is playing. I actually posted on here when he was 13 that he didn't want to practice at all.....he has since found his love for it again and I don't have to tell him to practice. It's just frustrating as a mother (paying for lessons) to listen to him practice online video game music all week. Although I am thrilled he wants to play at church, too.

I know there is a line that moms can easily cross....and I don't want to nag him. So I thought a basic here's what we expect thing....low key would be best. With him and his teacher.

I don't fear he'll quit piano, even if he quits lessons. But he's 16.....he'd pick quitting lessons just b/c then he didn't have to get up early. And he could stay home and play video games while the other kids went. ; )

I appreciate your insight

It won't be your call very much longer-- he will be grown and gone. Formal music study as a young person is of such immense value for a whole lifetime. I would say, keep him in if you can.

He might not think those Romantic-era pieces were so boring if he found out the young ladies like them. Or maybe his musical 'diet' has not exposed him to some of the things, in the vast library of compositions, that really speak to him. Or maybe he hasn't experienced the level of encouragement that young lads who go out for football (for example) receive... as wrong as that may be.

I'm just guessing, of course. For yourself, count your lucky stars that your kid likes music instead of crime as a pastime. Music lessons are one of life's great bargains that way.

You are wise not to make a battle of this, but vinegar is not the only way to catch flies: there is the honey. You may not think your son listens to you sufficiently, but I'll bet he does; even if he doesn't seem to be very acknowledging in the moment, a lot goes in. You must already be good at listening--- that prime attribute of a fascinating conversationalist--- drawing him out about his dreams and ambitions, offering what help you can to show him how to build a bridge to get from now, until the dreams can be made real. This is riveting stuff for a teenage mind. He has the love, he has the energy being young, so the missing piece is the long view and the motivation to show how it's in his interest to put them together and go some exciting places.

We don't really know what is going on here. But I would say, any student who practices for hours a day is a gold mine. If I was his teacher, I would embrace that in any way I could. I would be making him sight read video game music every week that he has never seen. I would analyze the chord changes inside the songs with him. Work on scales that have to do with the song. Work on his articulation.

The teacher may be doing this and he is still being difficult, but we do not know that.

You could explore other teachers if you think that is an issue, but interview the teachers and see what solution they have when you explain his situation.

I think the bottom line is he is practicing and really into something so you should capitalize on that.

good luck

Oh does that sound familiar.

If the teacher has talked with him about how the classical training reinforces his capacity for playing the stuff he really likes, and he readily agrees (sincerely), then there is little more you can do on that score (pun intended).

Sixteen year old kids often don't process information the way WE want them to, as though they are fully mature adults. Sometimes, however, you can make progress with a "come to Jesus" conversation. Yes, another deliberate pun, given that you said he plays in a praise band.

YOU are telling us that YOU hate shelling out money for lessons when he seemingly won't do the requisite work that YOU think he needs to do to make the lessons truly productive. Have you had a calm but firm conversation about all of this with him? Have you laid out the choices in a rational way? Have you asked him to react to your view so that you can see what he actually thinks of the case you're laying before him?

If you have tried this kind of conversation, and he mumbles something back that implies he hasn't really given it much thought, maybe you need to push the discussion a bit further. If he cannot articulate why he should continue lessons when he won't work to make them productive then perhaps it is time to fold up the tents for a while. Oh, he may say something that's transparently self-serving and designed simply to get you off his case, but I'm sure you know your own son well enough to detect that kind of behavioral pattern.

Cutting off expensive lessons is a risk. He may NOT ever return to formal training. But if you are convinced that he will not get your money's worth, then stop paying. On the other hand, you may have to cut him off to demonstrate your seriousness. Then, two months later, he may be willing to cut a deal with you to get back to the training. As I said, it's a risk. Showing your seriousness adds to your credibility, but it also gives him an out. He gets to stop lessons, and it's your doing instead of his.

Ah, life is so simple ....

Thanks! You guys have helped me keep some perspective.

I think there is some middle ground. I am happy to pay for lessons, but I think it's reasonable to expect some effort on his part. I don't expect an hour a day of classical stuff....but it's only fair to his teacher to work with her at least a bit. He has been exposed to lots of cool classical pieces over the years.....but the more he gets into his own stuff, the less he likes them, I guess.

When I suggested that he might take a Wed. night off from playing at church b/c he didn't seem to have time for lesson stuff, he looked me in the eye and said, "To me.....church music takes priority over practicing to win shiny trophies." So...yeah, he's a smart kid, too...playing the religion card like that. ; )

I told him he was right.....but the reason he can do what he does on his own is b/c of what he has learned from his teacher. So even if he doesn't want to play in an orchestra for a living....learning all he can will help him with whatever he does piano-wise. I think the pp is right, too.....if he can make the connection in his mind of the value of what he's doing in lessons as far as what he wants to do....it would help him.

But you guys are right.....I won't have him for much longer and at this point saying, "Practice Mozart or I'll take your phone away!" wouldn't be all that helpful. ; )

Stick with it (paying for lessons) till he's 20..then let him pay for if he so desires,
remember when you were sixteen? parents were so "square" and out of it? then when you were 30..your parents "knew something" then by 40 your parents weren't so "dumb" after all..
of course by 60(which I'm on the heels of) I hope I'm as wise as they were..
just my 2 cents

Seems to me that mom is intruding on the relationship between her son and his teacher. And on the her son's relationship to music and the piano. Is this a money question or an educational question?

If we want to listen to the son, however, he has said something very interesting, namely that he feels a pressure to compete at the piano ("win shiny trophies"). Surely that pressure comes from his teacher, so maybe it's time to move to a more understanding and flexible piano teacher.

With all due respect....do I have NO say in it at all? He is 16, not 18...and I'm the one paying for lessons. I understand not wanting to go overboard, but really I don't get any input? Is it a money question or an educational question? Yes to both.

You may have a point with the competition thing. It's just always been something they do every year.....he's never said he didn't want to do it, although it's not his favorite thing. She's never told him he HAD to do it....but it's sort of assumed, I guess. She does encourage it.....but I don't think that means she's not understanding or flexible. I think a less understanding teacher would have pulled her hair out long ago with him.

One problem, I think, is she sees his talent and potential. But at 16, he doesn't share her enthusiasm. I AM happy he's playing, and I don't want to intrude....but I think a little bit of give on his part is fair.

Just a side note....we did have to switch temporarily from this teacher a few years ago (nothing to do with her teaching, but my pregnancy and distance to lessons) and it was a disaster. His new, younger, less experienced teacher was totally frustrated with him b/c he didn't like to sight read, but memorized everything, didn't check off practice boxes and like to practice stuff besides what she picked. He did much better when we were able to switch back to our current teacher.

I don't know....even if he didn't do the competition this summer, she'd still want him to do a more classic song to go along with what he likes to do.

Also, I try reeeeally hard not to nag him about this issue. But it was frustrating me...and that's why I asked you guys.....to sort it out in my mind.

Dee6, in answer to my question about communication between student and teacher, you wrote that she tries to do some of the music he likes with him, and stresses the importance of classical music. I had something more in mind than just choices of pieces - that doesn't go far. I'll try to explain.

Some students take lessons because they have to. But some people take lessons because they have a connection to music, and they have goals. Good teachers are very happy to teach toward those goals if they know about them. This is where teacher and student have to get in synch. Some kinds of goals:

- learning to play really well so you can be expressive in your music
- understanding how music works
- practical things to be able to play better (like in church)
- creative things like improvising
- creative things like composing

If your son has these kinds of goals and talks about them with his teacher, then she can teach toward them. She might find things that she wants him to do that will help him get there and explain that to him, and he would be motivated. Things like competitions, a particular piece of classical music, aren't that kind of goal at all. Sometimes competitions and exams are used to get people to practice who aren't motivated otherwise. But for a student who is interested in music already, they might actually get in the way.

Imho, a 16 year old young man is old enough to talk about these things with his teacher, especially if he has been playing for a while.

Keystring, I agree with you completely. And when I say she stresses the importance of classical pieces, it's not for the sake of it being classical music, but b/c of what you can learn from it. And b/c it can help with all the things you mentioned....except for composing, which he isn't really into.

And I agree that a competition isn't important in relation to these goals, per se.....or a particular piece of music, except for the reasons I mentioned above.

Maybe other people's 16 (end of Feb) year old sons are better at articulating their dreams and goals....mine not so much. She can always try talking with him again, though. Most times, one or two word answers is all you'll get. That's not just with piano.....it's with about anything these days. He's a good kid.....but communication is not the strong suit of a teenage boy. Or at least not mine. ; )

Dee: I'm just a beginner here (nothing to do with teachers.)

I also have a "grunt one or two words, stubborn" 16 yr old, male teenager. They are definately frustrating. Mine is not learning piano though he is learning violin.

When I got him the violin the deal was that he would practice everyday. He wasn't doing it so now I'm making him do it. My end of the bargain was purchasing the materials, his is to keep practicing. He will start with a teacher next week and it's the same deal. I pay, he practices. If that means I make him, then so be it. A deal is a deal.

Since I termed it that way to him (recently) he has been a lot better about practicing. Perhaps try that tactic and enforce it. (ex: you have to practice 15 mins a day of teachers choice rest of practice is your choice.)

Just a thought. I know how tough it can be to get through thier thick skulls. LOL

Dee,

Is the competition stuff serious or is it really light touch stuff like Federation auditions? If it's Federation auditions that's almost an anti-competition. There isn't a lot of pressure involved. It's really gentle and built around encouraging students.

It's the MAMA....Mid America Music Association. You get points based on your own performance....95 percent and above and you trophy. If you enter competitive they have a first, second and third place. But for solo you just play before one judge-no audience.

My son is in a high enough class that they do allow audiences....but he's used to that. And he sometimes does competitive division.

I don't have experience with other compititions, but the MAMA doesn't seem that big a deal. He's trophied every year as did his 9 year old sister her first two years.

He doesn't like this trophy and competitive stuff - and many of us share his view - but has never before voiced his thoughts about it. For your son it sounds like music is a private endeavor, except for playing in church. Or maybe he has secret dreams of playing with others in some pop format.
Maybe he has no idea what he wants from the piano, but he still keeps working hard at it. That's ok.

My guess is that his relationship with his current teacher is nearing its end, despite good will on both parts. Neither of them sounds like much of a communicator, and they just carry on with lessons as usual because, well, they just carry on. But if he were to study with a composer-pianist, or a jazz musician, he might blossom anew.

You could voice your own frustrations with his laggardly classical practice, or make him start to pay a portion of his tuition. That would help him decide how much he values his current teacher.

"With all due respect....do I have NO say in it at all? ... I understand not wanting to go overboard, but really I don't get any input? ...I AM happy he's playing, and I don't want to intrude....but I think a little bit of give on his part is fair...But in the last few years, getting him to practice anything for his teacher is like pulling teeth. It's boring, he says..."

It sounds to me like you are beginning to know your own mind about this, and have less confusion than at the top of the page. Of course you should have some input, you're the parent, it's your job, and you know that young people do better when there is structure in their life--- and you know that they are always testing to see where the boundaries are. With NO healthy boundaries they go into freefall, and this is terrifying for them (not to mention for society). With too harsh a treatment they rebel--- maybe even refusing to do what they actually would love to do. And oh, they can be so stubborn!

"I don't know how hard a line I should take with him.....should I require so much time on "lesson" stuff? ...He will practice a couple minutes a day on it...and spend the rest of the time on what he wants."

A certain number of minutes every day on the music lesson material is not unreasonable. Colleges say two to three hours of study for every classroom hour is what is needed. My music teachers over the years have told me "An hour a day, ON your lesson material, five days a week (plus the lesson)--- that's what it takes"

The law is already laid down--- laid down by the nature of music, and the nature of the brain. It is hardly arbitrary or a power trip for you to appraise him of some of these well-known truths. Without the essential skill of reading, so many doors will be closed in his face--- and here it is, offered to him just at the time of life when the brain is plastic and absorptive. Protecting this young person from these disappointments and crippling limitations is a fairly good working definition of what love in its true nature really is.

"Am I wasting my money on lessons if the only time he works on his lesson music is during lessons? Should I just let him quit?"

No, and no.

There was a thread on here a few years back about what people had to say about their parents and what they did (or didn't do) to keep the lessons going. Some people, it seems, do exactly as your son is doing now, then start to blossom. Slow though it may go, critical mass of information is acquired, and then they're off to the stars.

Anyone who has a teenager at home needs all the good wishes in the world coming their way. So, wherever you may be in the world, Dee, I hope you can feel a little benefit from mine.

I think the boy is a success by my standards. I really wish more students would play the stuff they like to play.

He is amenable to visiting the piano teacher and absorbing her guidance during the lesson. One day her passion for classical music will rub off on him, although that day may be long after she's out of the picture. I would not allow him to quit.

Dee, as a parent , I understand your frustration and wishes! Here you are, giving your son a great opportunity and you feel he's not taking full advantage of it.

You're not alone
I think, if he's enjoying music and his lessons overall, AND you can afford it, keep going. He's still engaged in a very positive, productive activity that may turn into a lifetime hobby.

If you think about, we all probably engaged in SOME activity where we didn't give 100% - and as an adult, I have apologized to my parents for that.

If his teacher insists on this "competition" and your son is rebelling against this, then there is indeed either a failure of communication or simple irreconcilable differences. Tell the teacher he simply isn't interested in this activity.

My sons have done this sort of thing because it was just part of the teachers' game plan. They didn't care much, and the event was pitched as just another performance opportunity to prepare them for much more important events. Points and trophies? Gahhh.

Now, some teens love high-risk, high-reward kind of events that are more serious than these trophy events. There are auditions that offer real scholarship money, real opportunities like a master class with Yuja while she is wearing one of her skimpy performance outfits (not really, but that's an amusing thought ), and the chance for them to meet and socialize with a bunch of truly excellent young musicians.

My 2 cents as a teacher, a parent of 3 kids (2 boys) who were once teens, and as a former teen student myself:

1. I went through phases like this. I practiced on end - but not my lesson material. That's why I'm such a good sight reader today! I do think that spending time at the piano is beneficial, even when not on task.

2. As I've written before, my kids all play 2 instruments, and all liked their "other" instrument better than piano, and never had to be nagged to practice the other one. But I felt piano was important and wasn't willing to let it slide. My kids didn't get an allowance; instead I paid them to practice piano. It was honor system - I kept a bowl of quarters and dollar bills on the piano, and they paid themselves based on what we agreed. It worked like a charm. When my middle son was at Juilliard, his teacher asked what his parents did to make him practice, and he told him. The teacher then instituted it with his own kids. I've had some of my students' families try a similar approach.

It works best to discover what motivates each kid individually. One of my students - who had begged for lessons - had to pay for her own lesson if she didn't meet practice requirements. It sounds harsh, but the reality is, when the kid does practice, they have a great lesson, feel good about what they're doing, and practicing stops feeling like a chore. I think she only ever paid for one lesson.

I've also discussed with my students ways to practice, such as asking them to keep their outside materials as "reward" for spending a certain amount of time on lesson materials, like dessert. I think you could ask your son for a compromise; spending some time on lessons material - maybe not as much as you want, but more than what he is doing.

As far as the religious aspect: We need some good church musicians who know more than 3 chords. Surely the teacher could help him in this area? Remind him that the church doesn't need more hacks; we are to offer the best we can, and this is a way to be faithful with our talents.

All I can add to the conversation is this:
If your child is interested in worship music and video game tracks, then find a teacher who will work with him on that level exclusively (I do that with my students, both in the teaching studio and online lessons, and have an extremely high student retention rate as a result). Unless his aspirations are to play Carnegie Hall, he does not need classical music pushed at him. This is not to say that there is not value in classical repertoire, simply that there are ways for him to learn the necessary fundamentals without ever playing another classical piece.
I'm sure that many of the teachers on this forum would disagree; I'm simply stating what I have seen work for students time and time again.

Thank you guys! I had a talk with my son last night......actually got more than 2 words out of him. ; )

I asked him what he wanted to do with piano.....he said, "Play for church, and maybe in a regular band, too someday." He said he doesn't mind doing the MAMA, doesn't mind having to songs for his teacher, but gets bored with them. He spends more time on his songs b/c they mean something to him (video game songs b/c he plays the games and also the church songs, or other things he hears that he connects with).

I told him that I thought his teacher should do stuff with him that he wants to....but that it's only fair that he put some effort into what she wants him to study, too, sometimes. I asked him if he could see how studying some other pieces would help him in HIS goals and he said he did.

I asked him if liked every single aspect of the video editing he does......he said there is some really detailed stuff he'd rather fast forward through sometimes. And I think that helped him see the value in doing some things b/c it will help with the end goal. I hope, anyway.

I told him if he didn't want to do the MAMA he didn't have to, but if he did, he should pick a song he wanted and then he had to give a little too.

It was a good talk, and he seemed very open about it....now....it could be that he does agree with me but still won't bring himself to practice the Mozart more than 5 minutes a day.

That's when I have to decide to step out of it and let it be for awhile. If he's still getting something from just the lessons, I think I'll keep my mouth shut for now. ; )

I appreciate everyone's insight. It really helped a lot.

Dee

Bravo, Dee! The best thing is simply that your son keeps at his music-making during these high school years. Legions of piano students drop out at his age, and he hasn't. We're rooting for him!

If he hits an impasse, tell him he can always explore pop lessons with Gordon in Binghampton via Skype (see earlier post).

Peter

If he can already play the music he wants to play on his own, why does he still need lessons?

I mean, if he wants to play video game music and he can play video game music, then that is good. But if he doesn't want to learn classical music and his teacher is making him, then why bother?

It sounds to me like piano is already a positive thing in his life- and like you don't want to pay for it. That's fine. My guess is he would keep playing even if the lessons stopped. That's what I did.

Remember, for a motivated student, most everything you need to learn music theory etc. is out on the internet.

If I were you, I would ask him if he thinks that spending your money and his time on these piano lessons is really worthwhile.

Then again, when I have kids, I'm going to give them a monthly education budget and let them spend it how they want- piano lessons, sports, whatever. I tell you that so you understand where I'm coming from- of course you might have a different idea.

Just ask him if he would still take piano lessons if you just gave him the money every month or if he'd spend it on something else.

Ultimately, though, it's your money that's being spent- so you have to decide if you want to keep spending your money this way. If you don't think it's worthwhile, then I'd suggest you stop. If you do think it's worthwhile, I'd suggest you continue. Either way- you have to see what you really feel and then decide. It's not something we can decide for you.

Is it really just Mozart or Classical era stuff that's boring to him? I may talk with the teacher about your talk with your son and see if perhaps she can include him on a selection of a different piece for the "competition" (this doesn't sound like a hard-core competition, so really it's use a great performance experience). If he has a say in why he plays, then if he doesn't practice it then it's partly on him for selecting that piece in the first place.

By the way, I think it's great that you had that talk with your son, helping him to reason out why he's doing what he's doing, and to be able to look beyond the immediate. I love Mozart, but I also know it's not for everyone. There is other repertoire out there that can teach him what he needs that perhaps he'd tolerate and want to practice a bit more.

Is it really just Mozart or Classical era stuff that's boring to him? I may talk with the teacher about your talk with your son and see if perhaps she can include him on a selection of a different piece for the "competition" (this doesn't sound like a hard-core competition, so really it's use a great performance experience). If he has a say in why he plays, then if he doesn't practice it then it's partly on him for selecting that piece in the first place.>>>>>>

Thank you! That is just what I did. I told him if he didn't want to do the MAMA, he shouldn't. He said he didn't mind it...he would do it. (About as much of a ringing endorsement you're going to get from a 16 year old male ; ) So I said, fine.....then if you don't like your song, you should pick a new one. THEN.....if you say you're gonna do it.....then you have to put in some effort. Only fair.

In the meantime, he is working a little more on lesson stuff. I don't really expect a huge change....but that is fine. I got my point across and I don't mind paying for lessons if he's getting something from it....I agree he probably wouldn't quit playing altogether if we quit lessons, but I'd like him to learn all he can and develop his talent as long as he's willing. Even if he only wants to play for fun.....everything he learns now can help him.

Thanks, again!

I don't see why he should be forced to practice/play music he doesn't enjoy. I think it's mostly or totally untrue that the only good way to become proficient at the most difficult church/video game music is by in including some classical music.

What kinds of things can only classical music teach him?

Agree with pianoloverus completely--the best way to capture a student's attention is to teach them something they like. The best teachers I have had have always been able to structure a lesson around something I am familiar with. You should be able to take most songs and build a lesson around them. So, if your student likes some current heavy metal song (to take an extreme example), figure out the chord progression and melody (if there is one:)) and start showing the student how to play it. They explain why the songs sounds the way it does. Then have the student compose something of their own using those same concepts. Really the sky is the limit as long as you get them excited in some way about what they are learning...

JPE