Hello!

Can anybody help me to identify the nice upright piano? The original firm's plate is not survived, as well as builder's emblem on the cast iron frame inside.

The only fact I know is, that the piano has serial No. 15584 (wrote down by pencil), is very high - 152 cm (so the keys are extended with abstracts) and was made somewhere in Europe, probably Germany, ca. 1890-1920.

Originally this upright wasn't black, but probably mahogany, inlaid with nacre and brass thread, with candles' sconces. It has 3 pedals (with moderator) and 7 octaves AAA-a5. It has low dampers and cross strings.

I'll be thankful for every possible idea!

PS. The pictures are below.

In order for pictures to appear, they need to be put on a server on the internet, and then you can embed the URL.

The odds of there being much information about an old European vertical piano which is not readily identified are not good, in any case. The odds that it has any special value in the marketplace are even smaller.

OK, thank you BDB!

So, there are upright's pictures:

Have you asked on the German forum at www.clavio.de?

I can't tell you anything about the piano, but it looks to have been refurbished at some point. The felt-strip mute bar is definately a newer option. I bet it sounds great!

Rick

Not yet. I will do it.

Do you think it's newer? But the middle, 3rd pedal is original.

The sound is very profound and loud, full of overtones. The strings are extremely long, especially bass, even longer than in some "short" grands.

The serial number without the make is not very helpful for dating or identification. If you look at the fallboard at a very low angle and play with the lighting, you may be able to make out and read the name inlayed in brass under the black finish.

The piano looks like a typical German 85 note specimen, pre-1918, probably closer to 1900.
There is one way to maybe be able to date the piano more accurately: if you can find the name of the action maker's (stamp on the action rail) plus a serial number of that, a cross reference might be possible for dating.

I can tell you what it is not: It is not built by any of the dozens of companies that were (and are still) well known for their creation of musical instruments. Any company that was capable of making a "name" for itself by virtue of the quality of the instruments it was making would not waste that capital. They would have their name cast into the plate.

This is not to say that this was not a decent instrument when it was new, simply to state that it is not a Feurich, Bechstein etc. In contrast to Rick, I can't see any signs of restoration work on the photos. The mute rail looks 100 years old to me, just like everything else.

I may be wrong, or maybe my vision is not what it used to be, but the insides look much better than some of the 100 year old pianos I've encountered. And, I didn't know they even used a mute rail 100 years ago.

Maybe it was just taken good care of over the years. Or, maybe I don't know what the heck I'm talking about!

Rick

Guys,

What I see is that plate. I see screws across the top of the pinblock, and running down the sides. Can't quite tell if it is a full-perimeter, or one of those 3/4 with a seperate piece across the pinblock, but that's not 1890's construction. So, I lean towards post-1900 for sure, just on that evidence. The casework and styling are too elaborate for much later than 1915.

Best guess? I give it 1905 to 1908.

Thank you for info!

There is nothing on the fallboard under the black paint. It wasn't the inscription, but a firm plate, and only traces of the screws are still visible.

Yes, it has 85 keys. Probably it was restored once: some of strings seems be new.

I know, that there were thousands piano builders only in Germany, and every of them produced dozens thousands of uprights, so, even such "big" (or maybe "small") serial number is not helpful. But: the only possibility to identify this one I see in its height: I'm sure, it isn't very common to have uprights of 152 cm height. It can be something like a special idea of just this one piano builder, or something like a temporary fashion (exactly the "fashion": it wasn't economically justified, if you have the mass production).

As I wrote earlier, there is not firm's emblem on the frame, but only the hole of that. Someone "restored" it in way to erase all traces of the origin.

Oh, one more detail: there is engraved big letter "E" on the left side of frame.

Supply, I don't expect it's Feurich or Bechstein etc. I just have small but very nice collection of old pianos (1830-1900), and it's terribly annoying to have one "anonymous" between others...

Some new pictures:

No, TunerJeff, it isn't full-perimeter frame. It is illusion only if you see the top part of it. Then, lower, it start be smaller and thinner, so, on the bottom is only across the strings.
I cannot to attach the pics of down part of upright now - but in few next days I will.

Has it been repainted at some time? Many German pianos had inlaid names on the fallboard. If this one does, it might be possible to identify it.

The brass plates over the pinblock and the blue felt are reminiscent of Blüthner, but I would think they would have put their name on the plate.

Yes, BDB, it was repainted. But the original firm plate was removed then and didn't put back to its place. So, now under a layer of paint we can see only traces of the four screws.

It's missing quite a few strings. Though I like the look of it To me, it doesn't look too rundown. That's all I have to offer.

I think I just identified my piano. I found pictures of another upright, almost identical to mine, made by Joseph Konetzny, Berlin.
I put some pictures for comparison (my upright is black, Konetzny is mahogany).
If someone know something about Joseph Konetzny from Berlin, let me know please!

In your first post you said the piano wasn't originally black. It gets me thnking, maybe someone painted the piano black, and painted over the logo on the keycover/fallboard while they were at it, and you can't see it anymore. The two pianos look remarkably similar.

There is nothing under the paint - just four holes left by the firm plate:

That is probably as good a guess as anything. Just remember that piano components were made by a number of subcontractors who sold them to a number of assemblers.

this image is the pic of the one Tafelklavier doesn't own. The Screw holes on the black one roughly correspond to the screw positions holding the maker's name on the fallboard.

Joseph Konetzny was in business in Berlin from 1910 to 1929. There is not much more information available than that. During that era, there were literally hundreds of small piano manufacturers operating in the area around Berlin. Many of these had low production numbers and by all appearances did not necessarily have there own designs, but rather assembled components they acquired from larger, "no-name" suppliers (as BDB stated). Hence the screwed-on name plate, which could easily displayed the name of a dozen or more different "makers".

By the way, I suspect your piano was black from day one. From the photos, the finish looks like typical old and worn black shellac, typical of 90% of German pianos of the day. Any re-finisher would have filled the screw holes of the name plate and candle sconces. As well, the black finish is far too "perfect" around the inside of the case.

15584 is a "low number"? Maybe, if the firm produced 200.000 pianos, it will be low. But which firm can produced such number of instruments during over a dozen years of existence? BTW, I don't know nothing about Konetzny's production. Did they produce over 16.000 pianos? I don't know... The same is the problem with 85 keys' scale: if I know well, after the 1st world war new, 88 keys' scale is using. So, did they produced 16.000 of pianos during the first ca. 8 years of their existence?..


The problem is, that the layer of black paint is defective. When I try to wipe the dust, the paint is leaves. Also is visible, that paint covered the holes of the firm plate, the holes of the sconces and ornaments of brass and pearls. These decorations, which can be seen in the pictures, I discovered with a fingernail

What is 15584? It is only a number. Who said they started at 001? Maybe they started at 15001? Many companies exaggerated their serial numbers to give the appearance of high production numbers. The illusion worked then and it still works today, by all appearances. If a company made more than a few thousand instruments in total, they would be documented in the literature, and they would also have their name cast into the plate. 85 note pianos were normal in Germany for many years later than you state, I don't know where you get your information.


Regarding the paint: Many pianos were "modernized" at some point in their life. Candle sconces were removed (old fashioned!) and inlays were painted over because the styling did not suit the tastes of later owners or re-sellers. I still maintain the black is too perfect around the inside to be a later-day paint job. It's probably a black piano that was touched up in places.

What is more easy: to sell the piano in original color, or in other one, with badly masked traces of ornamentation? Everybody, who will see the piano, will have impression, that it isn't new, but used and anyhow refreshed.
Which producent will repaint his instrument and forget to install back his own firm plate?.. The holes of it were untouched...

But all this is not really important. It's not important, was it repainted few years ago, or in 1945, or in 1939, or in 1919.
Some of my instruments was repainted too, from brown / mahogany to black. It was just a fashion to have black pianos from ca. 1850 (up to now), so at that times many earlier instruments was repainted.


Well, at what time was the change of common piano scale from 85 to 88 keys? Since we know quite exact time frames of beginning of use a scale from AAA instead of CC, of starting to cross the strings, to use fully iron frame, to finish of Viennese action's production - let me know, when the scale up to c5 was definitively approved in middle Europe...

Let's remember that in a highly competitive no one builder produced any "old-fashioned" and "obsolete" instruments. This also applies to the used scale.

The newest piano I have seen with 85 keys was made in the 1970s.

Sorry, wrong again. It happened all the time. Think of the tens of thousands of straight-strung overdampers built in England until well into the 20th century. There are many more examples.

I understand you love these old pianos, but a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing as they say, and your assumptions and conclusions based on limited experience have a high probability of being incorrect.

That being said, I will send you a PM of who to contact with the information about the Joseph Konetzny pianos you have come across. Perhaps in the next edition of the European Piano Atlas there will be an updated and expanded entry on this brand, thanks to you!
regards,