SEARCH
Piano & Music Gifts & Accessories

PianoSupplies.com (a division of Piano World) Piano & music accessories, music theme decoratons, tuning & repair tools, moving equipment, party goods,music gift items, ... more
Free shipping on Jansen Artist Benches.
(ad) irocku - Rock Piano Lessons
irocku rock piano lessons
ad (Pianoteq)
Create your own piano with Pianoteq!
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
(ad 125) Sweetwater
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
Who's Online
167 registered (Aibori Firu, alans, alekkh, Amir, AldenH, Amaruk), 1252 Guests and 22 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Ad (Pearl River)
Pearl River Pianos
Forum Stats
64892 Members
40 Forums
132562 Topics
1894633 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
(ads by Google)
Forums by Piano World

www.pianoworld.com
Advertise on Piano World
Topic Options
#1837485 - 02/02/12 09:47 PM Open score
Elizabeth_Bennet Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/10/09
Posts: 128
My newest pianistic project is learning how to read open score. I have not yet had the need to use such reading skills, but I would like to start accompanying choirs soon. Learning to read open score, I think, will prove to be very valuable in helping a choir learn their parts, especially when the piano accompaniment differs from the vocal part.

I have several vocal scores, such as Bach’s Mass in b minor and Handel’s Messiah. My plan is to start reading through these scores, starting with just the soprano and bass lines, and then gradually adding the alto and tenor parts, respectively. Tenor will be most challenging because of the transposition – I will tackle it last.

A quick Google search unearthed this PianoWorld thread from 2007:

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthrea...ite_id/1#import

This is a treasure trove of information! I think I have a fairly good idea of what I need to do to become a proficient reader of open score – but I do have a few unanswered questions:

1) When choirs start learning a piece of new music, do they generally learn it under tempo and gradually work it up to speed, or do they start at the correct tempo?

2) Are most choir pieces written in treble and bass clefs – with the exception of the tenor – or do they use those weird old soprano, alto, tenor and bass clefs? (I only shudder to think of sight-reading those!)


Sorry about my convoluted writing style. I am a stressed student.

Thanks in advance!

Maybe someday I will even start reading orchestral scores... *dramatic music*
_________________________
Lizzy

Top
Piano & Music Acc. / Sheet Music


Sheet Music Plus Homepage
#1837508 - 02/02/12 10:25 PM Re: Open score [Re: Elizabeth_Bennet]
BruceD Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 15661
Loc: Victoria, BC
Originally Posted By: Elizabeth_Bennet
[...]
1) When choirs start learning a piece of new music, do they generally learn it under tempo and gradually work it up to speed, or do they start at the correct tempo?

2) Are most choir pieces written in treble and bass clefs – with the exception of the tenor – or do they use those weird old soprano, alto, tenor and bass clefs? (I only shudder to think of sight-reading those!)
[...]


Unless the music in question is particularly complex, I can't imagine choirs sections learning parts "under tempo". That's something that the individual singer might do at home; learning, for example, the melismatic passages in a Handel chorus, but I would think that by the time each singer gets to the first choir rehearsal - or even section rehearsal - they would rehearse pretty much at tempo. Think what problems rehearsing choirs under tempo would do with breathing!

Isn't that what orchestras do? At union wages, orchestras certainly don't have the luxury of multiple rehearsals where they are just bringing things up to tempo. It's the individual player's responsibility to come to rehearsals prepared, with all individual "kinks" worked out, ready to play to the conductor's whim.

Most choral scores are written in the standard treble and bass clefs. In fact, in all the study/reading I've done of choral scores, I've not seen any that are written in other than the standard treble and bass clefs. That doesn't mean to say that there aren't any, but I've not seen any. I would think that they would be fairly rare.

Regards,
_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190 in satin ebony

Top
#1837516 - 02/02/12 10:36 PM Re: Open score [Re: Elizabeth_Bennet]
AldenH Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 03/22/11
Posts: 271
Loc: Texas
About the only published music using C clefs in various locations on the staff (soprano clef, alto clef, tenor clef, baritone clef, etc) that I've seen are 15th and 16th century works; motets, madrigals and other genres. Unless you're getting involved with an early music society (in which case a piano would seem sort of silly, haha!), don't worry about it.

Open score reading is such a good skill! Not much fun until you develop an efficient systematic approach at reading them one at a time or somehow take them all in simultaneously, though. Once you get the hang of it, it's rather satisfying - not that I'm an expert on the subject, but the amount that I have done reading open score chorales, madrigals and string quartets has been very rewarding.

There's so much good music out there that's not for piano and should be looked through! So many great pianists have incredible anecdotes about their score reading skills (Liszt, Gould, Horowitz and so on), maybe they're on to something? =P
_________________________
Bach P+F 17 in G minor (WTC I), Mozart K. 488 (1st mvt), Beethoven Op. 10, No. 2, Chopin Ballade No.2 in F, Op. 38
Étude project: Chopin Études Op. 10 Nos. 8 and 9, Rach Étude-Tableau Op. 39, No. 5 in E-flat minor

Top
#1837575 - 02/02/12 11:59 PM Re: Open score [Re: AldenH]
Damon Online   happy
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 4481
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: AldenH
About the only published music using C clefs in various locations on the staff (soprano clef, alto clef, tenor clef, baritone clef, etc) that I've seen are 15th and 16th century works; motets, madrigals and other genres. Unless you're getting involved with an early music society (in which case a piano would seem sort of silly, haha!), don't worry about it.


I just read through a bunch of Cello etudes by David Popper which was my first encounter with C clefs. I didn't see the point in them but I surprised myself by growing accustomed to them quickly.

Top
#1837599 - 02/03/12 12:32 AM Re: Open score [Re: Elizabeth_Bennet]
Arghhh Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/31/08
Posts: 713
The transposition being referred to is where the tenor part is written in the treble clef, an octave above where it is to be played. It does take some getting used to.

Top
#1837602 - 02/03/12 12:34 AM Re: Open score [Re: Damon]
Arghhh Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/31/08
Posts: 713
Originally Posted By: Damon
Originally Posted By: AldenH
About the only published music using C clefs in various locations on the staff (soprano clef, alto clef, tenor clef, baritone clef, etc) that I've seen are 15th and 16th century works; motets, madrigals and other genres. Unless you're getting involved with an early music society (in which case a piano would seem sort of silly, haha!), don't worry about it.


I just read through a bunch of Cello etudes by David Popper which was my first encounter with C clefs. I didn't see the point in them but I surprised myself by growing accustomed to them quickly.


Try reading through Bach's Art of the Fugue in the original clefs (it has soprano, alto, tenor and bass clefs).

Top
#1837659 - 02/03/12 01:52 AM Re: Open score [Re: Damon]
Nikolas Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 2833
Loc: Europe
Originally Posted By: Damon
Originally Posted By: AldenH
About the only published music using C clefs in various locations on the staff (soprano clef, alto clef, tenor clef, baritone clef, etc) that I've seen are 15th and 16th century works; motets, madrigals and other genres. Unless you're getting involved with an early music society (in which case a piano would seem sort of silly, haha!), don't worry about it.


I just read through a bunch of Cello etudes by David Popper which was my first encounter with C clefs. I didn't see the point in them but I surprised myself by growing accustomed to them quickly.
you mean you don't see the point in the C Clef?

Think of it this way: If you have a melody that usually goes from 1 octave lower than the middle C to 1 octave higher than the middle C (what viola plays), then the C clef of the middle line is pretty handy... You don't need any ledger lines... Same goes for any other instrument that uses such registers (although I will admit that apart from the viola, the cello and the bassoon I don't recall many other instruments that desperately need the C clef and the voice clefs have become obsolete nowadays).
_________________________
http://www.musica-ferrum.com

Top
#1837768 - 02/03/12 07:49 AM Re: Open score [Re: Elizabeth_Bennet]
jdw Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/04/11
Posts: 146
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
Having sung in various choirs (professional as well as amateur), I would say it's very common practice to start learning under tempo as a group. Of course, it depends on the piece. It's true you have to adjust the breathing later, but going more slowly is often good for locking in the coordination and tuning among the different parts.

Modern choral scores use the standard clefs (thank goodness).
_________________________
1989 Baldwin R

Top
#1837775 - 02/03/12 08:02 AM Re: Open score [Re: Elizabeth_Bennet]
Orange Soda King Online   happy
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/25/09
Posts: 4624
Loc: Louisville, Kentucky, United S...
Originally Posted By: Elizabeth_Bennet


1) When choirs start learning a piece of new music, do they generally learn it under tempo and gradually work it up to speed, or do they start at the correct tempo?

2) Are most choir pieces written in treble and bass clefs – with the exception of the tenor – or do they use those weird old soprano, alto, tenor and bass clefs? (I only shudder to think of sight-reading those!)



1. It depends on how good the choir is. Usually, I would guess that they start going through it full speed. Some technically difficult sections (like melismas in Handel or parts that are difficult to lock in the harmonies because they fool the singers' brains at first) may be slowed down if they need to work on them a bit more.

2. Usually yes, treble and bass clefs, with tenor being treble clef down an octave.
_________________________
Discontinuing the streaming practice for now, unless a few members PM me and still want me to do it.

Top
#1837780 - 02/03/12 08:17 AM Re: Open score [Re: Nikolas]
Damon Online   happy
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 4481
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: Nikolas
Originally Posted By: Damon
Originally Posted By: AldenH
About the only published music using C clefs in various locations on the staff (soprano clef, alto clef, tenor clef, baritone clef, etc) that I've seen are 15th and 16th century works; motets, madrigals and other genres. Unless you're getting involved with an early music society (in which case a piano would seem sort of silly, haha!), don't worry about it.


I just read through a bunch of Cello etudes by David Popper which was my first encounter with C clefs. I didn't see the point in them but I surprised myself by growing accustomed to them quickly.
you mean you don't see the point in the C Clef?

Think of it this way: If you have a melody that usually goes from 1 octave lower than the middle C to 1 octave higher than the middle C (what viola plays), then the C clef of the middle line is pretty handy... You don't need any ledger lines... Same goes for any other instrument that uses such registers (although I will admit that apart from the viola, the cello and the bassoon I don't recall many other instruments that desperately need the C clef and the voice clefs have become obsolete nowadays).


I might have said that in the way they were used by Popper, I didn't see the point in them. At one point, he changed to C clef in the middle of a section on leger lines, but remained on leger lines?! I thought at the time that if I were to use C clefs, at all, it would be to eliminate leger lines.

Top
#1837961 - 02/03/12 01:04 PM Re: Open score [Re: Elizabeth_Bennet]
Elizabeth_Bennet Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/10/09
Posts: 128
Thank you for your responses. So, the general consensus is that most choral music doesn't use C clefs? That's a relief.

As for learning music at the correct tempo immediately, I suppose most choirs do start at the right speed, even with new music. BruceD, I hadn't thought about all the breathing problems slower tempi would cause!

I am looking forward to learning choral music - I'm afraid that my listening has been quite piano-centric. I am trying to branch out more and listen to more orchestral music and choral music.
_________________________
Lizzy

Top
#1838132 - 02/03/12 06:36 PM Re: Open score [Re: Elizabeth_Bennet]
jdw Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/04/11
Posts: 146
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
Originally Posted By: Elizabeth_Bennet


As for learning music at the correct tempo immediately, I suppose most choirs do start at the right speed, even with new music.



This has not been my experience over several decades of choral singing, including with professional singers doing advanced repertoire. In pieces that go fast or have complex rhythms, I have found that most conductors start slowly (and I think they get faster and better results that way). With slower or simpler pieces, starting at tempo is more likely.

(And then, of course, as with piano, the "correct" tempo may be a matter of musical judgment that emerges in the course of working with a piece.)
_________________________
1989 Baldwin R

Top



Moderator:  Brendan, Kreisler 
What's Hot!!
JOIN Us on Our New Piano Tour of Europe!
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
-------------------
Piano Books
-------------------
panic
(ads) PD - WNG - MH
Wessell, Nickel, & Gross Piano Actions
Sheet Music
(PW is an affiliate)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
sheet music search
sheet music search

sheet music search
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Piano
(ad) GROTRIAN
GROTRIAN Pianos
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
Recent Posts
This week: Chicago Amateur Piano Competition, Keys to City
by Cinnamonbear
05/28/12 11:05 AM
Is there a musical corollary to abstract expressionism?
by P I A N O piano
05/28/12 11:01 AM
Music: It's in your head, changing your brain...
by P I A N O piano
05/28/12 10:53 AM
Interesting Antique Grand
by Rich D.
05/28/12 10:52 AM
Spreading Yourself too Thin - How Much to Learn at Once?
by zrtf90
05/28/12 10:48 AM
Quick Links to Useful Stuff
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Piano Accessories
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Virtual Piano Chords



 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |
 
PianoSupplies.com


Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| Del.icio.us |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2012 Piano World all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission