Not the octaves, but the measures right before them, where both hands ascend over the different inversions of a Gb chord (m. 80-81)

I understand the patterns involved. I've tried thinking about them in lots of different ways. But I just can't play them! When I try to, it feels like all the black notes are homogeneous, and I can't differentiate between them, so my hands have no idea where to go. It feels like an undifferentiated mass under my hands, if that makes sense. I don't know where to look.

Any suggestions? I thought these measures would be relatively easy, but now they're the main thing holding me back from my current (modest but challenging) tempo (76 to the quarter).

-Jason

I also would tend to think it's not one of the harder passages in the piece (never worked on it), but I can think of two reasons why it might be.

And one of them....


Did you mean that literally in terms of where to be looking when playing the passage, as opposed to where your mind should 'look' to figure out what the problem might be?

Assuming it's the former: I think you've put your finger on the most likely problem, and that it points toward the solution.

But first, the other thing I can think of that might be an issue for some people: Do you have some trouble with the 'double notes' in the RH? That's no issue for some people, a big issue for others. I won't take up more space about it now, because I think it's probably not relevant, but....if someone has trouble or is uncomfortable about catching both of the notes together, it can distract him from attending to the rest of what's involved in playing the passage and it can seem like something more general is going on, when it really isn't. We can get into this if we need to, but I'm guessing we don't because this isn't it.

Back to "where to look": I think I would need to work out carefully and 'microscopically' exactly which hand to be looking at, at every split moment. I think for me it would involve a constant but rhythmic shifting, and I'd have to know -- really know -- exactly where each shift happens, and to do it absolutely consistently during practice.

I think also that this is an example of a kind of thing that i meant a few weeks ago when I talked (amidst some controversy) about the possible deleterious effects of 'too much' slow practice. For most of us, this passage requires a lot of slow practice, BUT.....I think the slow practice can actually screw up our playing of the passage, if we don't attend to the "looking" thing pretty much exactly as I described it above, because.....

When we play it slowly, if we're not making a point of "doing our eyes" exactly the same way we'd do it when we're playing at tempo, we're practicing something different than what we'll actually be doing -- and in a way it constitutes negative practice, potentially destructive practice. And I think the "looking" thing isn't something that most amateurs think of, or have much awareness of, when they practice slowly. They (let me say we) just play it in whatever is the most natural way at the slow speed and at each speed that they move up to. But with a factor like this, there comes a point where it might just stop working, because the way we need to be looking changes -- and without our understanding why it's happening, it seems like all our slow practice hasn't helped. If we make a point of working out the "looking" thing, and then making sure to do the exact same looking at the slow speeds -- even though we don't have to and even though a different kind of looking would be more natural -- then we can get somewhere.

I'm guessing that's it.

And, to be clear, I'm not saying the answer is not to practice slowly, but to make sure that none of the slow practice involves any kind of different 'looking' than when you play at tempo, and that you should view the slow practice as involving practicing where you look just as much as it involves the fingerwork or anything else.

Thanks for the reply, Mark.

I'm pretty sure the problem isn't in the RH double notes, because I can play the RH on its own just fine. The problem is in coordinating the two hands' ascent.

I've certainly experimented with different things to look at. Part of the problem is that, in general, I'm highly left-eye dominant, and whatever the piece, I find myself almost always looking at my left hand. Slightly left of center. Usually if I try to focus on the left or right extremity, everything falls apart. So my looking options are kind of limited.

Here's what I've found most helpful so far with this passage. I break it up into the first three beats of m.80, and then the next three beats of the piece, which are just a repetition an octave higher. (I have no trouble with the rest of the passage, once the hands stop moving.) So I parse it as these two groups of three. That's helped a lot, but I still have trouble overall; wondering if anyone has an articulatable solution that worked for him/her.

-J

p.s. I think this passage is indeed a good example for Mark's controversial thesis on the limits of slow playing. I can play this thing slowly, and even up to a moderate speed. Then I hit a wall, above which the old strategy is useless. I need a new idea to play beyond the wall.

The RH just moves up an octave and the LH down an octave after each triplet figuration, so I don't see why it should be especially difficult in terms of your hands "knowing where to go".

Are you using the same fingering for each RH and LH triplet or changing(say from 35 to 45 on the first note in the RH or from 5-3 to 5-2 on the first two notes in the LH))? I wouldn't change the fingering on each triplet, but that's just what works for me. Try practicing the passage as a series of chords or triplet followed by chord.

You say that you "find yourself" almost always looking in a certain way. That can be a pretty big limitation. Certain things really call for a different kind of looking. This is a passage where you might need to break through those usual limitations on 'looking' in order to play it confidently and reliably. Of course you can try the other stuff, but this might be the key. It sounds to me like this is just a habit that you haven't felt any great need to break, and maybe haven't much thought about before, but on which it wouldn't be that hard to expand the 'repertoire' of what you do.

BTW I don't think the "dominant eye" thing needs to be a factor in this; at least I don't see why it would be.


Thanks for that.
I think it's the looking.

I would agree with this in the abstract, but I'm finding, to my surprise, that it is: my fingers just don't know where to go.

-J

The RH just moves up an octave and the LH down an octave after each triplet figuration, so I don't see why it should be especially difficult.

Are you using the same fingering for each RH and LH triplet or changing(say from 35 to 45 on the first note in the RH or from 5-3 to 5-2 in the LH)? I wouldn't change the fingering on each triplet, but that's just what works for me. Try practicing the passage as a series of chords or triplet followed by chord.

The exact same measures that have been holding me back from performing it!!!! I have the whole thing up to about 96 with the exception of the octaves, which are a bit slower. My teacher thinks this is an acceptable tempo, but the problem is, I just can't play those two measures cleanly at anything over 70. (My problem is in the left hand. I have fairly small hands and a couple of the stretches are really difficult to judge.)

Mark makes a great point about the pitfalls of slow practice. My teacher is always telling me that I have to just let the thing rip every now and then, and not worry about the wrong notes. She told me to be aware of what my body is doing, if I tense up, just acknowledge and try to notice what is causing it. She told me to go back and practice slow for accuracy, but then play it at tempo. She told me that pushing the metronome up click by click really doesn't work in some cases and this is one of those cases.

She also agrees that, with the exception of the octaves, these are the two hardest measures. And added, "Which is why I don't play it. And why a lot of people really kind of fake it, if you really listen closely." Made me feel a little better.

Well, that makes me feel a lot better too!

My teacher says very similar things about slow playing for accuracy mixed with a tempo playing, where you don't care about all the notes, and you're going more for the right gestures and movements. She says she detests moderato practice (for fast pieces).

Anyway, here's an interesting video of Horowitz playing the piece. I always wondered why he slowed down significantly at those measures. Maybe they were hard even for him.

Without seeing what you're doing or at the least hearing you the best advice I can give you (both of you) is to slow down your practice. Contrary to what some would have you think, slow practice is your best friend. Of course, the point is to pay attention to what we're doing and pinpoint the problem, which means we've enough understanding TO pinpoint the problem, but slow it down.

It's taken me years to get those measures sort of comfortable, if not up to tempo yet. For me, the left hand was the main problem. I finally got to where I could nail them simply through the usual standard methods: hands separate, rhythms, groupings, ultra slow - in various combinations.

WHY they are so hard is still somewhat mysterious, although when working on them intensively I finally understood that part of the problem is that for some reason the hands "want" to make the pattern of each triplet to be identical, and they aren't. Also, deciding on the left hand fingering for the ascent was tricky (use 3 or not?)

In an attempt to head off another slow practice debate, let me say that while I think it has its limitations, I still agree with this statement. My best friend.

Thanks for the advice.

-Jason

I agree that it's a terrific friend. We just have to watch it, and to make sure (to the extent possible) that we're doing all the key things the same as we do them at tempo, because otherwise we risk ingraining counterproductive habits.

See the above posts.
I'm not saying I know it's the "looking," but when that's what it is, the problem usually seems mysterious, because this isn't one of the main things that most people consider.


Good point, and I think that's a very possible explanation for others too. The remedy then involves making sure you really really know, and that the hands really really know, where it's which.

And of course slow practice is needed for that.

Absolutely agree.

Oh my goodness....

Well, in my case it isn't the looking, since I don't look. But I guess if that is the problem for anyone, a good way to approach it would be to practice the passage with eyes closed.

Was that intentionally funny?

Most people would need to look (in such a passage), and if they don't, they're at a big handicap.

If you have no problem with the passage and don't look, then no problem. But if you have a problem with it and aren't looking, that's probably the problem.

I think you were on to something there which is why I personally opted for "not". Using 2 every time simplified things. I still blunder the 4 bars before it and the octaves after, at times.

I doubt it, I don't look either.

But hey, he said he has a problem with the passage!

We're not talking about people who don't have a problem with it!

<rolls eyes>

OK, have it your way.

He said he "nails" it now. I used to have a problem with it too. I never gave it much thought at the time and assumed I would eventually get it. I can't say specifically how I did because it was too long ago, but I seem to recall much of what wr said. Slow practice, rhythms, the usual.

I saw it differently. He started out saying he got it to where it's "sort of comfortable." I took "nail it" as being a relative thing. If he wants to say he meant it's really comfortable, what I said wouldn't apply, but I doubt someone meant really comfortable when he said sort of.

The infamous "that depends on what the meaning of "is" is" seems tame compared to much of the above back and forth speculation.

Jeesh, what's happening with all these threads? Is it a full moon?

Okay.

It may help the OP to trying to play the left hand 5 - 2 - 1 all the way up and play the Gflats at the end 4 - 2 - 1. Try to avoid cocking your wrist at an angle and move your arm instead. Practice doing that slow.

WRONG!

It's a thing of how we understand what someone said. You think you know? If you do, you're guessing.

Guys... can we return to topic, please? I'd really like some specific suggestions from folks who have played this.




Yes, I'm using 5-2-1 all the way up. (Once I get there, I have no trouble.) I'll try what you suggest about the wrist angle.

I agree with what wr said previously: It's mysterious that this passage is so hard to execute. Specifically, what I'm finding (to try to articulate it again) is that each step up is like a leap in the dark. Often, playing on a combination of black and white notes helps give us some grounding; the non-homogeneity lets us keep track of where we are. But here, since we're all on black notes with both hands, and both hands are moving their position, I find myself ungrounded, and very unsure of which notes come next.


-Jason