In Chopin's etude opus 25 no 1, my ancient Schirmer edition is not clear about the playing of the left hand where it shifts from 4 notes per beat to 5, e.g. the last beat of measure 21. Am I to play (LH) 5 against (RH) 6 for the whole last beat, or is it (LH) 2 against (RH) 3 for the first half of the last beat and 3 against 3 in the second half of the last beat? The same pattern repeats twice in measures 29, 32 33, etc.

I tried looking for other editions on IMSLP but they also were not clear. Unfortunately, my battered Schirmer is the only copy I have and my teacher was not certain.

Deborah,

First of all, for some reason, our measure numbers differ by one. Did you count them by hand? I have the figure in question occurring in m. 21, 29, etc.

Anyway, it's the second thing you said: "(LH) 2 against (RH) 3 for the first half of the last beat and 3 against 3 in the second half of the last beat."

I'm working on this piece quite intensely these days, feel free to share whatever question or observations you have, no matter how minute!

-Jason

Thank you Jason! You are right; I counted the measures wrong. I just corrected my original post. Thanks for the input! It's very easy to play that last beat 2 against 3 then 3 against 3 and sounds fine but I wanted to be sure. It's a lovely piece but my small hands create an interesting challenge.

I think if it's not 6 against 5 that has to be indicated in the score with a "3" over the last three notes of the LH 5 tuplet. One score at IMSLP had that marking but two others didn't. I don't think it will make any difference which way you choose at tempo.

It certainly should be. But that score does all kinds of interesting things. Like instructing us to bring out certain notes by changing the size of the note head.


Maybe not to the listener, directly. But, believe me, it makes a difference to the performer. And, therefore, to the listener at least indirectly.

-J

And it's perfectly clear what the larger notes mean so I don't see your point. Don't virtually all the editions have some notes written much larger than the others?

Meaning you find it easier one way I guess? But IMO that doesn't mean everyone should play it that way or even that it will be easier for everyone that way. Maybe it means it's the best way for you to play it.

I'm working on this lovely etude right now. My teacher instructed me to play the measures in question as a 5 against 6 pattern. It sounds smoother than the 2 against 3, 3 against 3.

I'm using a Henle edition.

You have small hands, yes? How are you mananging the large stretch in measure 8 (first beat)? I have rather small hands and I have redistributed the notes so the RH plays the D-flat and LH plays the B-flat on the 4th note of the first group of six. Another challenging measure for me is measure 20. I've found that the RH is easier to play if I don't play too far into the black keys.

Love this piece! Hope you're having a fun time working on it! I sure am..

Interesting, Lizzy. I'd never even thought of doing it as true 5 against 6. I've always heard it the other way, and that's how it's spaced in my Paderewski edition. Also, those beats are always in "transition spots" from 4 vs. 6 to 6 vs. 6, so it always made sense that they begin as 2 vs. 3, which is what has been happening previously, and end as 3 vs. 3, which is what is about to happen. I'll ask my teacher what she thinks.

I also redistribute the first beat of m.20. I even redistribute the crossings in m.28. (But I don't redistribute the crossings in m.32-34.) And I agree: measure 20 is tricky, especially (for me) hitting the G on the 3rd beat.

It's a great piece. I'm just starting to take it up to speed, which is presenting a whole host of new challenges....

-Jason

I'm doing the same thing. The stretch is too big for my LH if I play it at tempo as written. I can manage the rest of the measure as written. I don't seem to be having a problem with measure 20 but the second half of measure 15 (RH) is awkward with small hands. There are a few places where I am playing the RH's first and 3rd notes with 5 to facilitate the stretches such as measure 11. I'm still learning the notes but I find it much easier to play the portions I know almost at tempo because I can completely relax and keep my hands small. At this point, I'm not optimistic about getting it fully up to tempo because little hands have to move so much faster than big ones!

One could just as easily argue that one should go from 4 against 6 to 5 against 6 to 6 against 6 to transition. Or that Chopin chose 5 notes in the LH for a different reason..

My go-to when I wonder about some notation question in Chopin is Chopin's First Editions Online - though sometimes in certain details, there are still discrepancies among them.

BTW in its heyday, Schirmer has at times published editions of the same music by different editors (especially true for Bach, Chopin and Schumann). For Chopin's etudes, I think that two continue to be in print - by Mikuli and by Friedheim.

In the first editions, it's seems clear that the spacing in the French and German editions favors a duplet + triplet. The English edition seems more ambiguous to me.

Great resource! Thanks. I've got the Schirmer Mikuli edition.

LOL! Beat me to it - I was still comparing versions when you posted.

Perhaps, but ever since my teen days (late 1990's) I never saw the Mikuli in music shops, only Friedheim. A number of my classmates used Friedheim -which appeared to be a very decent edition (great annotations)- but I always used Peters myself.

I studied the Op25/1 at 19, and I never interpreted the last beat of measure 21 as anything other than a simple 6 over 5. With due respect, not sure what the issue is. That is certainly clear in Peters.

Deborah, what does your teacher say?

She said : " ... my teacher was not certain."

I am inclined to agree that it is five against six.

Regards,

Sorry Bruce, rather careless of me. But I find it odd that Deborah's teacher (someone I have briefly met and have heard many times- mostly on the local classical station) would be uncertain about that.

But no one's certain-- different editions say different things. Paderewski, and the original French edition, space it as a duplet and triplet. Other editions, like Peters it seems, space it differently.

I'm surprised you say you don't see what the issue is. I'm coming from the other side of the fence-- as I've said, I've always heard and played it as duplet plus triplet. But I do see now that there are two sides to this.

Here's an additional thought. Many odd polyrhythms in Chopin aren't divided up perfectly-- they're often broken down into triplets and duplets anyway, at least on some level of the performer's mind. (I'm thinking, e.g., of the long runs in the op.9/1 nocturne, or the 5 against 4 at the end of the F minor op.10/9 etude.) It would be almost impossible to prove, and, as PV says, indistinguishable to the audience at tempo, but I wonder if those artists who do conceptualize it as a "simple 6 over 5" don't wind up breaking it into a duplet and triplet (in either order) anyway.

-Jason

I guess that this is one of those issues that will never be resolved or, to put it another way, one of those issues that will have people taking one point of view or the other. For me, this work is all about continuous, seamless "flow." Even though it may not be perceptible to an audience, I think that in the mind - and execution - of the performer, breaking up one beat into three plus two (or two plus three) while all other beats are even sextuplets creates a too-studied, too-precise interruption or break in the evenness of the overall flow. Keeping the left hand notes spaced evenly whether they are four, five, or six to a beat seems to me of paramount importance.

Regards,

Jason, my good mate, I just don't 'get it'. At that speed, how would it ever be possible to differentiate the left hand with a duplet plus triplet? At a slower tempo, perhaps, and Chopin may have indeed specified that in a Nocturne or something.

But here we have a simple instance of the left hand figuration wherein in the last beat Chopin merely inserts an extra note with the understanding that it should flow as seamlessly as the previous three beats.

Ultimately this seems very much a case of straining gnats and swallowing camels, IMO.

Edit: Bruce posted in the meantime and I agree with him.

Ha, ha! I'm a bit older than you. My Schirmer/Mikuli cost only $1.75 U.S. and I probably bought it when I was 15 or 16. That would be 19.....hmmmm. He was leaning toward 5 against 6. When he sat down to play it he thought it didn't make all that much difference at tempo. I got the impression he hadn't played it in a long while. He didn't have his own score handy either. I have to forgive his faulty memory since his repertoire is so huge. My gosh, the man can play from memory ALL the Beethoven Sonatas and almost EVERYTHING, (truly), Liszt wrote plus a long, long list of other things. He is awesome.

Sounds like he could be my new favorite pianist!

He has just started his Liszt Bicentennial Project. Emulating the spirit of Liszt, all of his recitals benefit various musical organizations.

His next recital is Feb 12 at the University Christian Church, 4731 15th Ave NE, Seattle. He will be playing the "Malediction" Concerto, the "Norma" Fantasy and "Dante" sonata.

Upcoming dates are:
March 2, (featuring the B minor Sonata, Scherzo and March and "Weinen, Klagen, Sorgen, Zagen" variations.)
April 6 (Featuring late Liszt works including Liszt/Busoni Fantasia Contrapuntistica.)
May 4 (ALL of the Transcendental Etudes.)

If he can't remember a few measures in a Chopin etude, I forgive him!

Just curious... have you decided on which rhythm to use yet, gooddog? I'm interested to see what you and your teacher decide on. I started working on this piece seriously in late November and at that point my teacher and I decided that keeping the LH notes evenly spaced would produce the smoothest sound.



Interesting. Measure 15 is not too difficult for me - I can only reach a ninth but my hand is quite flexible. For the huge stretches in measure 11, I simply lift off and use the pedal to connect. It's impractical to modify the fingering in the long run, especially when you speed it up.

What fingering are you using for the LH in measure 17? I'm using 5-3-1-3. 3 acts like a perfect pivot and helps me maintain a balanced hand position. I'm using 5-2-1-2 in measure 19 because of the black keys.

I have to perform this piece in a masterclass in less than a week.... hope all goes well!

I'm playing it 5/6 but the difference between that and double/triplet is almost undiscernible near tempo.

Good luck on your master class! I envy you!

It goes without saying (by the very nature of keyboard sound) ...
that any note TOPPING A RUN automatically gains ACCENT.The larger indicated notes merely underline this principle ...
it is therefore inadvisable to attempt to “hold” this note ...
the continuity in flow of the 6-note ripple must be maintained in both hands.

Also at m21 with 5 over 6..

" ... topping a run..."? but there are no runs in this piece!

Thanks for that BruceD,
" ... topping a run..."? but there are no runs in this piece!"
In the opening measure of the Chopin Etude 25/1 ... and in particular, reference to the emboldened top notes ...
Eb, Ab, C, Eb is an upward “RUN” (perhaps arpeggio in your lingo).

The main point is that the TOP note (though emboldened) is not held ...
I like to use the word “exposed” for notes which top a run.
(picks up the draft).

Regards.
btb

Hi folks,

For anyone playing this piece, I just wanted to share a couple ideas about this overcrowded score from yesterday's lesson. The score is just teeming with indications.

1. The pedal marks are all Chopin's, and it's very interesting to follow them exactly. For instance, look at how he changes the pedal on the second beat of the second measure. Not on the first beat, where the melody goes outside the Ab triad, but on the second beat, where the melody returns to the triad. The same idea is used elsewhere, like in m.26.

There are lots of other great pedaling indications, like m.22 and 23.

2. Then there are the "big" notes, the ones with the big notehead. Of course, the RH top note melody is all big, but what I didn't realize is how careful Chopin was in deciding which LH notes would be big too. It's generally when the LH bottom note changes, but there are more interesting examples, like m.5. And the most interesting example is probably m.17-20, where the top notes of the LH get the big treatment. When you bring out the big RH and LH notes in those measures, you get an exhilarating back-and-forth effect between the two hands.

Lots of little secrets, as if written in code, packed into this score.

-Jason

Except that I would be quite averse to thinking of this as a "back-and-forth effect between the two hands;" rather, two "sustained" voices playing simultaneously but with their individual notes on different parts of the beat. Your idea to me - you and others may, of course, differ - suggests a sudden jaggedness of line hopping from soprano to tenor that is nowhere otherwise apparent in this Etude and would, I fear, if executed as you suggest, do much to destroy the mood otherwise created by the entire work.

Regards,