Hi,

I saw a 16-year-old 5'3" Estonia grand piano in a music store and it's priced at $11,000. Is it over priced or about right? Do you think it is still good for 15 years?

With this budget, actually I can buy a new Kawai GM10 baby grand.

I'm planning to buy a piano for my Grade 10 piano exam, so which one is a better choice for me? I'm planning to buy one for 10 years and then trade for another better one.

I'm more inclined to the used Estonia but as it is already 16 years old and I don't know how to check a used piano (except the most basic stuff like mould/cracks on soundboard which the Estonia does not have), so I don't know if I should take the risk to buy it. Otherwise, I'll go with the Kawai GM10 or GM12 (made in Japan).

Do you have any comments or suggestions? Thank you so much for your advice!

Christie the fool

Around that time, I think Estonia's from that era had some manufacturing inconsistencies, not to say that they were not nice pianos, of course...

The price on the Estonia could come down from there, looks a little high. Looking at used pianos, it is strongly suggested that you take your tchnician to check out the piano in question. Do you like the piano? How does it sound?

If for whatever reason you choose to go with the either of the Kawai's, I'd go for the Gm12. To me, at least, without much prepping instore, the GM12 is more refined, and has better clarity and general sound, even if in the lower range it isnt' fantastic sounding. It also has the Millennium III action. GM12 is made in Japan, GM10 is made in the indonesian factory. But given the proper attention, either can be great...

Good luck!

I agree with you, and the GM12 is still affordable, and much cheaper than Yamaha too. But I'm still thinking about the Estonia which is quite attractive if that one has no defects (they claimed there's not). I'm wondering how come an Estonia can be priced at 11,000.

But thanks for your advice!

Christiethefool

Estonia made a 5'4" piano before the current 168cm (5'6") model was introduced. This change represented a complete redesign which has further evolved over the years, so a 5'4" Estonia from the mid-90's would be very different from any of today's models. That price is high, and it will probably stay on the market a long time, so if you like the piano and a tech says it's good, make an offer you're comfortable with.

Too high IMO. My couple experiences with Estonias that old were pretty rough looking instruments not on the same level as more recent Estonias.

Rotom, have you played many Estonias from the mid-1990's?

I share your deep curiosity.

Christine,

Personally, I'd love to see and play that Estonia. The current factory owner, Indrek Laul, is something of a folk hero on this forum. He took control of the factory in 1995. That would place your candidate at the time of transition when, as the story goes, things were in tough shape at the factory. Pre-Laul Estonias are generally frowned on here as deficient for the usual reasons - pst Soviet Era satellite state hangover etc. However, I wonder how many here have actually played Estonias of the particular vintage. I know I haven't, hence the curiosity.

I'd be curious as well to find out something of that particular piano's history-- where it's been, how it got to where it is now, etc. Of course, sometimes that information is impossible to track. Finally, I'd be interested to learn what, if anything, the music store has done to recondition it.

All that aside, with $11k in my pocket, and wanting 10 years of advanced practice and performance from a piano, it's not one I'd seriously consider. I think there are safer choices in that budget range.

I'm surprised at Grade 10 that you'd even consider that particular Kawai model you mentioned. Have you played one?

Indeed no but i have read up on them before.

Hi Christie:

I share Turondot's surprise at your apparent interest in the small Kawai product. Not that they aren't good pianos, but at your playing level I would think that a larger instrument would better serve you, even a nicely used one. For example, a 15 year old KG-2 or 3, or a Yamaha G2 or C3 would easily fall within the budget but I think you will find them vastly more interesting to work on than the entry level GM10 or 12.

If you aren't brand conscious, I would expand my search to used 5'8 - 6' grands by Yamaha, Kawai, Young Chang, older Knabe, Chickering or other, somewhat larger products that I think you'll find are more artistically rewarding. BE SURE to have a qualified technician check them out BEFORE you buy, but I think these will better serve your needs, IMHO.

Thanks for all your advice. Rotom, I just read your first response regarding the used Estonia. It wasn't there before my 1st reply.

The reason I picked them is because of budget and space. But haven't really sat down and played on a Kawai but guess they should be similar to the lowest model Yamaha. I was choosing between buying a higher model upright or the lowest model new baby grand. and of course I wish to have a grand.

With a budget of 11K or 12K, do you have any recommendations for an upright that I can do my Grade 10 exam and practise for 10 years? Is W. Hoffmann a good choice? I thought of Seiler/Ronisch but they don't have dealers in Vancouver.

Thanks!
Christie the fool

the Yamaha and Kawai, although both the lowest end grand, will sound very different. Kawai is generally much mellower than the Yamaha.



W. Hoffman grands are nice. The uprights sound good too.

What is the largest size of grand piano you can fit in your space?

The sound and touch of a piano are very personal preferences, but I would never compare a Kawai to a lowest model Yamaha.




I haven't played a lot of new uprights, but one that I loved was Petrof. A Baldwin 5000 can also be a very good upright IMO, but of course it would be used, and I seldom see them advertized for sale.

Today I went to a Kawai dealer and the saleslady told me that it's very likely that grand piano cannot be delivered to my living room because of the turn at the end of the staircase, and not even a 52' upright! They'll come over and check for me this week to make sure. I'm really upset now. Sigh!

So now if I limit the choice to upright, I'm thinking W. Hoffman, Petrof, or any European made 49' uprights (but not Irmler). In terms of depreciation and durability, which one do you think is better? Are they good for Grade 10 (or even higher)?

I also think of going to the USA or back to HK to buy a Seiler upright which is not available in Canada. Do you think shipping is a problem? I really the sound of Seiler but finding a reliable shipping+moving company is a problem though the Seiler price in HK is way lower. Do you know any Seiler dealers close to Seattle? (I'm in Vancouver). Do you have any suggestions?

I would love to try the used Baldwin but not seen here. And thank you for all of your valuable advice and suggestions!

Christiethefool

Isn't Norbert in Vancouver? I think his shop is called Heritage Pianos. I would visit him and talk to him personally -- while as a poster he seems somewhat frivolous at times, in person he's a wonderful man and very knowledgeable -- especially about Estonias. I wouldn't give up hopes regarding you getting a grand piano up your staircase just yet. It also seems odd that you are just talking about what to get based on somewhat unusual criteria -- i.e., resale, and what not. I don't know much about that Estonia but the best way to buy a piano IMO is to start playing them first. Then start whittling down your choices based on pianos that you have already deemed acceptable based on your experience, taste, and style of play.

Thanks! I'm not really picky when budget is a concerned and both pianos sound acceptable to me and when thinking this piano will only be played for 7-8 years at most. By then I'll have enough money to get another nicer piano for myself (excited!). I will ask Norbert after getting the measurement done. Really hope that the grand piano can be moved upstairs and really thank you so much for all the valuable advice!

Christiethefool

7-8 Years is a long time Christie, Get the right one