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#1838883 - 02/05/12 08:37 AM IVORY II VERSES PIANOTEQ ON AVANT GRAND N3
hodgkins Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/19/11
Posts: 14
I am most interested in the options of the two above mentioned being used on my n3 if at all? is it worth the trouble and all the bother with wires and all that goes with it conection wise or is the stand alone sound of the n3 possible sufficient and will the TRS still work it is my intention to put one of the programs through my internal speakers on the n3,
I am concered that ivoryii might be to hungry for my desktop vista dell computer not really up on tech any help would be appreciated rhanks tony20172

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#1838909 - 02/05/12 10:06 AM Re: IVORY II VERSES PIANOTEQ ON AVANT GRAND N3 [Re: hodgkins]
steve1991 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/02/12
Posts: 24
ivory ii can beat the sound quality of a avantgrand?!

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#1838925 - 02/05/12 10:36 AM Re: IVORY II VERSES PIANOTEQ ON AVANT GRAND N3 [Re: steve1991]
hodgkins Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/19/11
Posts: 14
BUT NOT PIANOTEQ DO YOU MEAN IS THE AVANT GRAND N3 BETTER THAN PIANOTEQ

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#1838947 - 02/05/12 11:15 AM Re: IVORY II VERSES PIANOTEQ ON AVANT GRAND N3 [Re: hodgkins]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3666
Loc: North Carolina
Are you not happy with the sound of the N3? I haven't tried one, but just imagining that the N3 is not up to snuff gives me pause ...

I don't have Ivory 2, but I do have Ivory 1.5 and it's far better than Pianoteq. I especially like the Ivory Bosendorfer. But I think Galaxy has the better Steinway, particularly the Galaxy Vintage D.

They're all much better sounding than Pianoteq.

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#1838962 - 02/05/12 11:47 AM Re: IVORY II VERSES PIANOTEQ ON AVANT GRAND N3 [Re: hodgkins]
gvfarns Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3474
Loc: Pennsylvania
Each of Ivory's pianos is far better--more realistic, more detailed, more beautiful--than the AvantGrand onboard sound. In terms of pleasing sound, both are well beyond PianoTeq.

It's a definitely hassle to run all the wires but if you really are interested in the very best sound, Ivory and its brethren Galaxy, Garritan, and apparently Imperfect Pianos very clearly dominate the AvantGrand's sound, as well as PianoTeq.

Of course, Ivory isn't designed and tuned specifically for the speaker arrangement in the N3, so that give the onboard sounds a bit of advantage when played through speakers.


Edited by gvfarns (02/05/12 03:57 PM)

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#1839130 - 02/05/12 05:31 PM Re: IVORY II VERSES PIANOTEQ ON AVANT GRAND N3 [Re: MacMacMac]
hodgkins Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/19/11
Posts: 14
yes the avant grand n3 is a good sound but the grass always looks greener on the other side I have come to the conclusion that it will be syntholgy ivory 2 grand pianos for me but will have to check the spec on my computer to see if it can handle it ,and this i lock thing well why dont they give you a full price at the time of purchase and I still need to know if TRS will work on ivory I think dave horne mentioned something about it to me but I have misplaced the e mail

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#1839135 - 02/05/12 05:40 PM Re: IVORY II VERSES PIANOTEQ ON AVANT GRAND N3 [Re: gvfarns]
hodgkins Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/19/11
Posts: 14
Im not sure what you mean to say with regards the internal n3 speakers thats my intention to run the program through the n3 speakers and I would like to know if the TRS on the n3 would still work running on ivory 2 I must admit that its a bit upsetting to pay so much for the avant grand and then have to consider running other programs you would think that they could include it Im sure just for a couple of extra pounds

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#1839143 - 02/05/12 05:51 PM Re: IVORY II VERSES PIANOTEQ ON AVANT GRAND N3 [Re: hodgkins]
Dave Horne Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 5259
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
The N3 is a four channel system for its built in sounds. (Through headphones it's two channel.)

If you connect the N3 to an external sound source via its line in, you'll only use two of the four channels.
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mp3\wav files

AvantGrand N3, CP5

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#1839154 - 02/05/12 06:09 PM Re: IVORY II VERSES PIANOTEQ ON AVANT GRAND N3 [Re: Dave Horne]
hodgkins Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/19/11
Posts: 14
so I would only use two of the four channels well is that worth considering doing to get ivory 2 running through the n3, I am sure if I proceed on with this conection, I will be letting myself in for some overtime regards wires here wires there and as I mentioned prior TRS will it work in conjuntion with ivory, I have grown quiet accustomed to my vibrating fingers oh and pedals

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#1839158 - 02/05/12 06:23 PM Re: IVORY II VERSES PIANOTEQ ON AVANT GRAND N3 [Re: hodgkins]
gvfarns Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3474
Loc: Pennsylvania
I thought TRS was something you could turn on or off, whether using speakers, headphones, or MIDI. Check your user's manual if you want to know how.

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#1839165 - 02/05/12 06:34 PM Re: IVORY II VERSES PIANOTEQ ON AVANT GRAND N3 [Re: gvfarns]
hodgkins Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/19/11
Posts: 14
Yes you can switch TRs on and off either headphones or internal speakers midi I dont know I am wanting to use it in conjunctionwith ivory hope its possible ????

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#1839175 - 02/05/12 07:01 PM Re: IVORY II VERSES PIANOTEQ ON AVANT GRAND N3 [Re: hodgkins]
Melodialworks Music Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/05
Posts: 1309
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: hodgkins
and I would like to know if the TRS on the n3 would still work running on ivory 2


No it won't. Separate audio engines.
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Melodialworks Music
Yamaha C3X
Yamaha CP300 + Omnisphere
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#1839176 - 02/05/12 07:02 PM Re: IVORY II VERSES PIANOTEQ ON AVANT GRAND N3 [Re: hodgkins]
Melodialworks Music Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/05
Posts: 1309
Loc: Canada
Not sure if this has been mentioned, but the noise gate (which you cannot defeat) ruins and external audio playing through the N3's audio system.
_________________________
Melodialworks Music
Yamaha C3X
Yamaha CP300 + Omnisphere
Yamaha NU1 + Production Grand

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#1839216 - 02/05/12 08:44 PM Re: IVORY II VERSES PIANOTEQ ON AVANT GRAND N3 [Re: Melodialworks Music]
gvfarns Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3474
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: Melodialworks Music
Originally Posted By: hodgkins
and I would like to know if the TRS on the n3 would still work running on ivory 2


No it won't. Separate audio engines.


I assume it's like other pianos, though, where you can leave the audio engine running on but turn off the speakers. Then connect your headphone or whatever to your audio interface to hear the sweet Ivory.

It's hard for me to believe there's no way to experience TRS while using Ivory for your sounds. MelodialworksMusic, can you elaborate on the situation?


Edited by gvfarns (02/05/12 08:46 PM)

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#1839382 - 02/06/12 07:18 AM Re: IVORY II VERSES PIANOTEQ ON AVANT GRAND N3 [Re: hodgkins]
hodgkins Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/19/11
Posts: 14
so thats another problem the sound gate plus no TRS what I need to here is some avant grand n3 person who is currently running ivory 2 with no problems ??????????

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#1839386 - 02/06/12 07:33 AM Re: IVORY II VERSES PIANOTEQ ON AVANT GRAND N3 [Re: hodgkins]
Dave Horne Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 5259
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
The Tactile Response System (TRS) works even when the volume is turned completely down. Use the N3 as your midi controller and run your software piano either through another sound system or through headphones.

I really don't look at this as a fault of the N3. It is not being marketed as a midi controller (though, of course, it has midi connectors).
_________________________
website

mp3\wav files

AvantGrand N3, CP5

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#1839390 - 02/06/12 07:41 AM Re: IVORY II VERSES PIANOTEQ ON AVANT GRAND N3 [Re: hodgkins]
Gigantoad Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/02/12
Posts: 336
I have a N1 and have tested some with Ivory II. Strangely I couldn't yet find the issue with the noise gate. Maybe they got rid of it in later revisions, or the N1 didn't have it to begin with? Can't be sure.

So far I think it's not worth it to run Ivory II through the internal speakers. The sound just isn't good at all, sounds pretty hollow and undefined. The N3 has better speakers, so maybe it would sound more satisfying. The "spacial acoustic" bit will be gone though.

Could always get separate speakers for Ivory, put the N3 volume to 0 and you'll have the best of both worlds including TRS.

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#1839421 - 02/06/12 08:47 AM Re: IVORY II VERSES PIANOTEQ ON AVANT GRAND N3 [Re: Gigantoad]
hodgkins Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/19/11
Posts: 14
thanks for that info i think at the present moment that I am going to carry on practising piano pieces and leave this elctronic carry on behind me at least for some time it is getting in the way of what I need to do regards more playing and just eat the grass in my field so to speak and not wonder about other grassy fields thanks very much for all your concern

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#1839444 - 02/06/12 09:39 AM Re: IVORY II VERSES PIANOTEQ ON AVANT GRAND N3 [Re: hodgkins]
Gigantoad Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/02/12
Posts: 336
Yeah, don't get me wrong though. The Ivory II sound is vastly superior, it's just that the N1 speakers aren't delivering it well. It's amazing with headphones though.

Maybe I'll try some monitors soon. I still have a pair of Genelecs that I'm not using currently. It's just that the N1 is placed in my living room and looking rather pretty. I'm not sure I really want to put some monitors on top and lose that minimalistic look. Let alone the mess with the cables.

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#1839480 - 02/06/12 10:45 AM Re: IVORY II VERSES PIANOTEQ ON AVANT GRAND N3 [Re: hodgkins]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3666
Loc: North Carolina
From what you're saying, it seems that the N3 is not such a good choice?
Yes, it has a true piano action, and the TRS, and very nice cabinetry.
But if the sound is not so good, then the N3 seems awfully expensive for what you're getting.

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#1839699 - 02/06/12 05:40 PM Re: IVORY II VERSES PIANOTEQ ON AVANT GRAND N3 [Re: Melodialworks Music]
Macy Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/10
Posts: 562
Originally Posted By: Melodialworks Music
Not sure if this has been mentioned, but the noise gate (which you cannot defeat) ruins and external audio playing through the N3's audio system.


Noise gate??? What's that?
_________________________
Macy

CVP-409GP, Vintage D, Ivory II GP's & American Concert D, Ravenscroft 275, True Keys American D, Garritan Authorized Steinway, Alicia's Keys, EWQL Pianos, MainStage, iPad/forScore/PageFlip Cicada, Custom Mac MIDI/Audio Software Design, Macs Everywhere

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#1840132 - 02/07/12 11:48 AM Re: IVORY II VERSES PIANOTEQ ON AVANT GRAND N3 [Re: MacMacMac]
hodgkins Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/19/11
Posts: 14
like I mentioned on here prior , The N3 sounds yes pretty good but I would like to here this ivory 2 through it but reading some of the problems people are having regards noise gate and some have had latency problems but after saying all this I am pretty happy with the avant grand n3

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#1840188 - 02/07/12 01:00 PM Re: IVORY II VERSES PIANOTEQ ON AVANT GRAND N3 [Re: Macy]
gvfarns Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3474
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: Macy
Noise gate??? What's that?


The AvantGrand mutes the line-in if the incoming volume is below a certain threshold. In principle this could be designed to mute out random incoming noise (from radio waves, etc).

When playing the fat part of your notes on the software piano it's not an issue, but when you let them decay all the way, it makes the note flutter in and out before it dies out completely.

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#1840224 - 02/07/12 02:32 PM Re: IVORY II VERSES PIANOTEQ ON AVANT GRAND N3 [Re: gvfarns]
ando Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3319
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: gvfarns
Originally Posted By: Macy
Noise gate??? What's that?


The AvantGrand mutes the line-in if the incoming volume is below a certain threshold. In principle this could be designed to mute out random incoming noise (from radio waves, etc).

When playing the fat part of your notes on the software piano it's not an issue, but when you let them decay all the way, it makes the note flutter in and out before it dies out completely.


It should be a federal law that noise gates come with an off switch...

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#1840269 - 02/07/12 03:50 PM Re: IVORY II VERSES PIANOTEQ ON AVANT GRAND N3 [Re: gvfarns]
Macy Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/10
Posts: 562
Originally Posted By: gvfarns
Originally Posted By: Macy
Noise gate??? What's that?


The AvantGrand mutes the line-in if the incoming volume is below a certain threshold. In principle this could be designed to mute out random incoming noise (from radio waves, etc).


Thanks for the reply, I hadn't run across that before. I must say, as an electronic engineer that seems like a strange function to put on an instrument like this. A line input is a high level input, not a microphone input, and you certainly don't have to mute an input to remove RF noise. There shouldn't be any more of a noise problem on that input than an analog input of a hi-fi system.


Edited by Macy (02/07/12 03:52 PM)
_________________________
Macy

CVP-409GP, Vintage D, Ivory II GP's & American Concert D, Ravenscroft 275, True Keys American D, Garritan Authorized Steinway, Alicia's Keys, EWQL Pianos, MainStage, iPad/forScore/PageFlip Cicada, Custom Mac MIDI/Audio Software Design, Macs Everywhere

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#1840297 - 02/07/12 04:42 PM Re: IVORY II VERSES PIANOTEQ ON AVANT GRAND N3 [Re: Macy]
sullivang Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/05/09
Posts: 2100
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Originally Posted By: Macy
There shouldn't be any more of a noise problem on that input than an analog input of a hi-fi system.


True, but hi-fi systems typically only enable one input at a time - the input that is being used.

I proposed a couple of ideas to minimise the impact of the noise gate a while ago. (mix in a background tone that is perhaps inaudible - a very high or low frequency sine wave, and, use the highest possible input signal level that the N3 can tolerate without clipping, to maximise the usable dynamic range) I don't have access to an N3 and haven't tested either idea.

Greg.


Edited by sullivang (02/07/12 06:40 PM)

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#1840318 - 02/07/12 05:08 PM Re: IVORY II VERSES PIANOTEQ ON AVANT GRAND N3 [Re: sullivang]
Macy Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/10
Posts: 562
Originally Posted By: sullivang


True, but hi-fi systems typically only enable one input at a time - the input that is being used.

It's still a dumb way to prevent a problem. If one is worried about noise on the "unused" aux input then make it a switchable input rather than gating it based on input level. But I still think it should be the responsibility of the source to be noise-free when not being used.
_________________________
Macy

CVP-409GP, Vintage D, Ivory II GP's & American Concert D, Ravenscroft 275, True Keys American D, Garritan Authorized Steinway, Alicia's Keys, EWQL Pianos, MainStage, iPad/forScore/PageFlip Cicada, Custom Mac MIDI/Audio Software Design, Macs Everywhere

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#1840325 - 02/07/12 05:20 PM Re: IVORY II VERSES PIANOTEQ ON AVANT GRAND N3 [Re: hodgkins]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3666
Loc: North Carolina
Agreed. If it could possibly cause a problem, make it optional/switchable.

This makes me wonder ... Why did Yamaha put it in there? I don't think my Clavinova has a noise gate. I don't think any of my equipment has it.

Did Yamaha discover a problem with their AG design that warranted a noise gate?

And, did they really even need to give the line input so much consideration? After all, this is a pure piano, with no ensemble/accompaniment features and no non-piano features. So I wouldn't expect many users to plug in a guitar for play-along. Indeed, I'm guessing that most owners won't plug anything into the line input.

I'm puzzled.

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#1840367 - 02/07/12 07:12 PM Re: IVORY II VERSES PIANOTEQ ON AVANT GRAND N3 [Re: MacMacMac]
Macy Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/10
Posts: 562
Originally Posted By: MacMacMac
Agreed. If it could possibly cause a problem, make it optional/switchable.

This makes me wonder ... Why did Yamaha put it in there? I don't think my Clavinova has a noise gate. I don't think any of my equipment has it.

Did Yamaha discover a problem with their AG design that warranted a noise gate?

And, did they really even need to give the line input so much consideration? After all, this is a pure piano, with no ensemble/accompaniment features and no non-piano features. So I wouldn't expect many users to plug in a guitar for play-along. Indeed, I'm guessing that most owners won't plug anything into the line input.

I'm puzzled.

Yeah, me too. My Clavinova (CVP-409GP) doesn't have it. I would have sent it back as a defect if it did. (More likely I would have found the "noise gate" function in the schematic and disabled it.) I use my CVP 95% of the time as a MIDI keyboard to play virtual pianos.

I see why Yamaha would want aux inputs for their AGs. I imagine a number of people want to connect a MIDI sound module to add accompanying instruments to their piano playing. I have a friend that added MIDI output to his acoustical Steinway to drive a sound module.

What is so puzzling is that Yamaha obviously knows the "noise gate" is a problem. I found this today in the N1 manual under Troubleshooting.

Problem - Sound input to the AUX IN jacks is interrupted.

Cause/Solution - The output volume of the external device connected to this instrument is too low. Increase the output volume of the external device.

This pretty obviously refers to the "noise gate" issue.

Extremely odd, since the function seems so unnecessary in the first place. It's like something copied from a mixer function or PA amp with summed inputs using stage equipment where you might have long cables strung out picking up noise.
_________________________
Macy

CVP-409GP, Vintage D, Ivory II GP's & American Concert D, Ravenscroft 275, True Keys American D, Garritan Authorized Steinway, Alicia's Keys, EWQL Pianos, MainStage, iPad/forScore/PageFlip Cicada, Custom Mac MIDI/Audio Software Design, Macs Everywhere

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#1840382 - 02/07/12 08:11 PM Re: IVORY II VERSES PIANOTEQ ON AVANT GRAND N3 [Re: hodgkins]
sullivang Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/05/09
Posts: 2100
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Good find Macy! They should specify the maximum allowable input level. If it can take "Redbook" levels (2V RMS), not all audio interfaces can go that high, so amping it up will help. Both my laptop and my semi-professional USB audio interface can only reach a bit more than half that level. Maybe it can accept even higher levels.

I think there's a user here that is not having this problem - I can't remember who it was. I think it was either the N1 or N2 that he was using. Maybe that user is using equipment that has a good strong output level.

Greg.


Edited by sullivang (02/07/12 08:29 PM)

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