Well this isn't really a serious topic, but I was just wondering what your thoughts are on this sonata.

overplayed? difficulty level? any fond memories of playing this when you were younger? favorite movement =? challenging aspects of this piece? favorite recordings?

This post seems kind of silly now that I've typed it, and maybe this has been discussed before, but uhh, feel free to veer off and rant/talk about/hate on/swoon over Beethoven's other sonatas or works

This sonata will always be the freshman Beethoven sonata to me. I think at one point, there were 3 or 4 different freshman out of a class of 9 at most who were playing it.

I prefer Op. 10 No. 2, and out of the C minors, I prefer Op. 13 and 111. Regarding difficulty, it's hard, but everything is quite difficult to play well.

Word up! Couldn't agree more.

That sonata's 2nd movement has my single favorite chord in the Beethoven sonatas. Towards the end of the middle section. A surprising chord.

-Jason

Would that be A flat, F, D flat, B double flat?

You've got it!

Isn't that the most sublime chord? I don't know why it's not famous; no one talks about it.

-Jason

Very poignant it is.

How would you explain it theoretically? Maybe the soprano has a passing tone.

Well... I can't analyze it very deeply. Certainly the soprano has a chromatically descending passing tone.

It's a variation on what's come before (m.87-90), which was a Db diminished resolving to a Db major. But this time (m.111-114), the "Db major" chord has that Bbb instead of the Ab, so it's really more of a Db augmented chord (enharmonically). Except that he keeps the Ab in the bass. That Ab - Bbb dissonance between the bass and soprano is mind-altering. Really, an astonishing moment.

Whoever's not familiar with it, take out your Beethoven sonatas and play these measures!

-Jason

The Beethoven 10 series represent a prelude to the composer showing his true colours with the masterful Pathetique Opus 13 ... up till then Ludwig was imbued with the tattered remains of instruction from past masters ... the hamstrung Opus 2 series were dedicated to dear Papa Haydn.

At the start to Opus 10-1 ... look at the old-fashioned block chords followed by a zippy upward motif picking up the principal notes in the C minor key ... dead in the water. chaps !
The Finale hams along with the typical “wriggle” motif of earlier genres.

In 10-2 Allegro, Beethoven is trapped by past ogres ... in the opening measures “lumpy” chords (too many notes) are followed by quaint wriggles ... and then comes an exaggeratedly ornate 8-measure RH statement over an equally “lumpy” chordal motif ... shades of some diabolical monster lurking in a fevered brain! ... thank goodness the high winds of the oncoming Pathetique blow all the dross away.

In 10-3 Rondo, it’s as though the Beethoven genius is wanting to bust out of it’s shackles ... an inventiveness emerges with the two hands producing quite different (but harmonious) motifs ... by m9 a rhythmic beat is introduced by the LH surmounted by a rising RH note pattern in octaves ... and by m13 the rhythm jumps to the RH with the LH buzzing out
a rising chordal motif below.

We don't have to agree, of course, but fwiw I think that op.10/1-2 are every bit as great as the Pathetique (if more modest in scope), while 10/3 frankly surpasses it. So divers opinions abide.

-J

Ouch!! It sure takes all sorts!

There are even chaps who like to labour the
Chopin Etudes.

I can't imagine.

I figured it would be a neat little quiz for me to find which chord you meant, before I looked too much at the details of what either of you said -- and so I made a point of just barely glancing at the posts before I went to look through the movement.

So, as it happens, for some reason I thought you were talking about Op. 2 No. 2, and started looking through the 2nd mvt, and lo and behold, I did find the weirdest Beethoven chord I'd ever seen, so weird that I thought I must be reading it wrong, but no, I wasn't -- dam weird chord!
But turned out I was.
It's the last chord of m. 30 (right before the ffp). I was playing a G# in the LH along with the G♮ in the RH.
Man, that chord really is way far out if you play it that way.

But as soon as I found my way.... I sure see what you mean. You mentioned that nobody ever talks about it, and I think the answer might be the same as why I never noticed anything particularly wild about it before....

I think it's related to what Ferdinand offered:


I agree with that, and I'd take it further: Both of the notes that are being sounded are passing tones, on the way to the dominant 7th in the next measure. Seen that way, the chord isn't really "a chord" in itself, isn't a chord with a Roman numeral or name or anything like that. (Ferdinand: Looks like you think you might see it as a I-6-4 with a 'dirty note' on top. I can see it that way if I try, but I see it more the other way -- i.e. no chord of its own.)

And so....if they're passing tones....taking that together with the p dynamic and the slurs from the previous measure, those notes would usually be played VERY GENTLY. (BTW in the Schirmer/Bulow-Lebert edition I also see a 'hairpin,' which would further suggest a very gentle playing of those notes -- but that seems to be inauthentic so I'm not counting it.)

If you play them very gently, I think that this would tend not to be experienced as much of a wild chord. Anyway I think that's why I never have. But just seen vertically (or if one chooses to play those notes ungently, aa I imagine one might), indeed it's way out there.

I think this is an example of how interpretation of expressive indications might influence our harmonic analysis. If you see the 'slurs' as indicating that the notes we're talking about are extremely soft (as I do), it's easy to see why this wouldn't be heard as a freaky chord and why it might not be analyzed as a chord of its own.

P.S. If I didn't know the composer of this middle section, I'm pretty sure I'd make the mistake of saying Schubert.

Schubert idolized Beethoven.

I don't disagree with most of what you've written, and maybe using the word "chord" implied too much of a vertical bold statement. It's a fleeting, transitional moment, definitely to be played very gently. But even if it's only a quiet passing sound, there it is, hanging in the listener's ears for a full second or two, and I think it's wild and mind-altering.

-J

I thought you probably wouldn't agree about it necessarily being a very quiet passing sound! (I'm sure some people wouldn't.)

I'd agree it's remarkable -- very remarkable, more so than I had ever realized -- but I would have thought 'wild and mind-altering' depended on it being played or conceived of in a very different way than what's been said. Although, a support for your view is how long this "fleeting" moment is! It would be a remarkable 'chord' in any event, but I think more so because of its length.

I'm really glad you drew it to our attention.

Yes indeed. I spent a lot of time listening to this when my son was a freshman!

But I really like the piece (sorry, btb). It does foreshadow the Pathetique, but it's a lovely Hayden-esque romp.

BTW, something about the piece that never really "worked" for me, and I wonder if anyone else feels the same:

The abrupt end of the 1st theme of the 1st mvt, the pause, and the entry of the 2nd theme.

(Ludwig, if you can hear me, what were you thinking.....)

Ha! I really like this kind of thinking. My mental map of the Beethoven sonatas is filled with little opinions about transitions, phrases, even individual notes that particularly do or don't work for me. It's fun to talk about, even if the ultimate lesson seems to be that there's often no "reason" or even way of discussing why certain passages either just do or don't work for us.

Case in point: for me the transition you mention in op.10/1 is fine, even great. A fiery restatement of the main theme (contracted in time, compared to its first appearance), a dramatic cadence, a pause, the following Eb in forte-piano. Maybe one of the things that's throwing you off is the strange number of measures in the phrase? Starting with the return of the theme (m.22), it's a 10-measure group before the 2nd theme comes in. So the overall timing is based on 5, which can feel unstable, or just odd, compared with 3, 4 or 8.

How do you feel about the analogous spot in the recapitulation?

-J

Good question.
About 49% better.

It would be 99% but the thing is, by then I've decided that I just don't like the movement that much, because of stuff like how this thing is in the exposition, so the highest possible number is 49%.

As to why I don't mind it there, a couple of things:

-- A big part of what hits me wrong about it at the beginning is that it's such a short time from the beginning of the piece until that abrupt thing. Here, we've been into it for a few minutes, including that we've heard the opening theme drilled into us more than enough for any criterion of satisfaction.

-- It's done differently in the recap. He doesn't re-do the opening figure before the cut-off. The re-do (and then cut-off) is part of what strikes me unsatisfyingly in the first instance.


That could be a big part of it; I'm not sure and can't really tap into anything directly about that, but yeah, in addition to the other aspects there's something about it that feels off-balance.

Part of why I can't tap into it is that if anything, it feels like sort of the opposite: It's too "square." But maybe that's because the phrase lengths put the resolution (such as it is) where it wouldn't usually belong and so it feels (to me) ponderous.

Yes, op.10 no.1 is pretty overplayed; not as much as op.13...always saw it often in thoscompote tuition programs and many learnt it in music school. it was listed out by my teacher as one of the 'must learn' Beethoven sonatas which I never bothered to learn she has probably forgotten about it by now anyway D since I am on to more advanced works.

I've played quite a fair number. My favorites are op.2 no.2, op.10 no.3 3rd mvt but the 2 which i especially like are waldstein 3rd mvt and op.110... Those 2 top the list, both of which I have not learnt but will learn!