Why did Beethoven say of Handel? ... “to him I bow the knee”.

We all know (and respect) the Water and Fireworks music and the Handel oratorios ... but it beats me why the great Ludwig should go gaga about George Frederick.

Anybody up to an explanation?

Whilst I prefer Bach to Handel, Handel was a great humanist, if that makes sense. His music is warm, almost Romantic. His 12 concerti grossi alone would place him in the top flight. His harpsichord suites - difficult to realise on the piano - also have a down to earthness which connects directly with our common humanity. The organ concerti are as enjoyable to listen to as any Bach concerti and his bass lines are arguably finer than Bach's. Add in the chamber music - far more than Bach produced - which is of a consistently high standard - and you have a baroque genius even before you consider the operas and oratorios.

Written by a someone who worships the great JS.

Thanks for your response sandals ... but can't quite go along with your "Bach for King!".

Handel seems so "straight up-and-down" to me ... his regular pulsing beat might have anticipated the Rap genre.

There's also the matter of scope. Handel thought big, there's a certain weight Handel has that Bach doesn't have. There's also the matter of his career; Handel was (in his time) revered by both the public and his colleagues. And remember that Bach was considered old fashioned, while Handel was a bit more forward-looking.

I also think musicians in the 18th and 19th centuries were less snobby than today. Take Chopin for example - he loved Bellini, Heller, Field, and Cramer; Schumann respected Gade and Kirchner very much. While these composers (like Handel) have been relegated to second or third-class status by today's standards, they were giants in their day, commanding respect and exerting a strong influence on their peers.

Well, if you can't Handel it ....

... then go Bach.

Beethoven also thought very highly of Cherubini and Clementi, both fine composers in their own right, but two names that never quite garnered the same acclaim as Handel or Bach, so who knows...

In his later works, Beethoven became more and more interested in fugue and counterpoint, and his works in the fugue form seem more "Handelian" than "Bachian" to me. Bach fugues seem so ultra-structured as to seem more academic. But Handel fugues sound more "human" to me, as do Beethoven's. Maybe that's just my impression - I haven't undertaken any comparative studies of Bach vs. Handel counterpoint - but it's a shot...

Interesting thesis-- definitely true with the Diabelli Variations fugue; now that you mention it, maybe true with op.110 and 106 as well.

-J

Don't forget the wonderful fugues in the Ninth Symphony, the Missa Solemnis, the Consecration of the House overture, the grosse fugue, and likely others too. Wonderful fugues, well planned and thought out, but I would never accuse them of sounding "academic" - they all sound very warm and human to me.

I just wanted to say how much I appreciate this thread on Handel. I'm planning to learn the Allemande from his Keyboard Suite #9 in G Minor HWV 439. I appreciate all of this background info. I would appreciate it if anyone has a suggestion as to the best source of sheet music for my selection. I have the public domain sheet music. However, I prefer getting something more contemporary in terms of notations and fingering. Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

Yup! My teacher promised to help me get a Handel on it! I'll get Bach to you on that. (Sorry! Somebody stop me!)

Just liszt, then, to what your teacher has to say!

Talking of yr Olde Handel,

I was once eaten alive at a robust cocktail party for a know-all musical fraternity.

I had always called the chappie Handel (as in handle) ... but was publically reprimanded for
a goofed up pronunciation ... apparently the
geezer should be known as Hendel.

Anybody care to comment?

Sorry chaps ... just had to deflect the flow
of corny jokes!!

His name was actually Haendel or Händel, so that pronunciation would be correct.

Thanks ape ... most appreciated.

Is it true that Handel has fallen to second or third class standards? I agree that he has fallen, but I still think he is considered to be one of the greats. Among the middle class public, I'd guess he's considered one of the very greats--the Messiah alone makes the case. But within strictly musical circles, he doesn't rate quite so high.

Also, the reputation of canonic composers has a lot to do with the history between their time and ours. Bach lived his entire life in what is now Germany, and over historical time, became one of the founding fathers of the the coming ascendancy of German music and German cultural hegemony. Handel left Germany, and made his mark in England--a sound business decision, and he fared very well--but it left him with a very different legacy.

Musical reputation is about more than just the notes.

Tomasino

Bach and Handel are non-identical twins, giants of their period. A simplistic view would label Bach as more spiritual and rational, Handel as more warm and human. There's far more to it than that of course, but what I am trying to say is that they are both as great in their separate ways.

My personal preference is for Bach but I revere Handel and do not regard him as inferior.

Incidentally, btb, the German pronunciation of Handel is Hendel, but as he anglicised himself thoroughly after settling in London, the Anglo-Saxon world is quite justified calling him Handel. If you meet another such pedant, you could say you are referring to the English Handel, the one who had turned his back on the German Hendel. To say Hendel in English circles is pretentious.

On the same sort of subject, Johann Sebastian Bach is John Samuel Brook in English. (I believe) Hasn't got the same ring to it, has it?