from a recent discussion..

does it sound the same? which is better? should one even learn finger legato?

I have my own opinions.


your thoughts?

'Pedal legato' creates a wash of sound, sustaining all the notes including ones that you don't want sustained. Finger legato is true legato and often requires substituting fingers while holding down the key to enable you to play seamlessly without a break in the melodic line - all organists do that as a matter of course because they don't have sustaining pedal. I don't think you can play Bach properly on the piano without good finger legato.

Lazy pianists who use the pedal routinely rather than their fingers to sustain the melody give the impression of having an 'unclean' sound.......

Finger legato, like standard legato? Connect two sounds by overlapping them kind of legato?

Because if that's the kind of legato that's being discussed, then absolutely! I'm flummoxed that it's even a question. Of course one has to learn finger legato, it's a foundation technique for piano. If the legato does not exist in the hand, then it will not exist with the pedal. The pedal can't catch what isn't there.

Hi Apple,

They are not mutually exclusive. Use pedal to enhance your finger legato. This may mean releasing and reengaging the pedal on every note, or even flutter pedaling, very subtle 1/2 and 1/4 pedalings etc etc

Ultimately, it is your ear and purpose that determine your legato.

The best octave legato I have ever heard was by my old teacher Julian Martin who demonstrated an octave legato only using the 5th finger on the top note, so none of the top notes were physically connected, and obviously none of the bottom notes of the octaves were connected, but the sound he got was the most compelling and convincing legato I had heard on octaves.
Of course Julian was a super human musician with ears that were from some sort of future space alien technology, but it sure changed the way I thought about legato.

Legato refers to the sound being connected.

Finger legato and pedal legato are not the same, but they can accomplish the same thing(this is not the same as saying one can always replace the other for any passage). Also, it's not really a question of one or the other...both are needed to play the standard literature and often used in combination.

If one is playing a scale in Mozart and one wants a legato sound this would be done with finger legato and usually no pedal. If one is playing the Great Gate at Kiev opening one must use the standard syncopated pedaling to make the opening chords legato. If one is playing the opening measure of Chopin's Waltz in C# minor, one could use a combination of finger and pedal legato or, as this pianist demonstrates, just pedal legato to connect the two RH chords:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehSKhRburRQ

An example where I think pedal plus finger legato is more useful than an attempt to connect the fingers with perfect finger legato would be the LH arpgeggios in the middle section of Rachmaninov's Prelude in G minor. Although the opening arpeggio can be played 5-2-1-4-2-1-2 I think 5-2-1-5-3-2-1 is easier and gets a better result.

I think there is some confusion about these terms because students usually learn finger legato first, so they may be inclined of thinking of legato requiring a physical connection of the notes by the fingers.

I tend to call what you term "finger legato" just "legato" and what you term "pedal legato" just "pedal". Definitely two different sounding things that can be used jointly or severally.

My piano teacher has me practicing my songs sans pedal until I can get them phrased properly (typically legato) with just my fingers, then adding appropriate application of the damper pedal for the desired final sound. Lord knows my legato needs the work.

Even with the pedeal down I can definitely hear a difference when my teacher demonstrates legato fingering vs. non-legato. It comes through anyway.

They can be made to sound exactly the same IMO. The Chopin Waltz and Rachmaninov Prelude are examples.

There are some occasions where use of the pedal is necessary to produce or maintain a legato effect. Mostly though, I think the pedal should be used for coloration and producing a sound rich in harmonics, not as a crutch to cover up an inadequate or lazy technique. I say this as one who is sometimes guilty of this latter offense.

How are those examples?

No. Depends on what you want to achieveAbsolutely.
There you go.

Rubinstein lifts his RH very high after playing the E so he is using only pedal to play legato to the D#. Most editions have legato fingering indicated(2-5 followed by 1-4).

i agree with you Damon. completely.

for clarity, options for expression, closely reading the score.. finger legato is of course an absolute.

i was just surprised recently when an advanced pianist said it sounded the same as using the pedal.. something like that.

i had a teacher for a while, too short of a while, and learning the difference and exploiting both 'methods' of legato and learning to really listen was a subject for focus. Different legatos certainly do NOT sound the same... for instance, the resonance of octaves notes is a whole nuther factor. Even if the pedal is depressed anyway, one can hear the finger legato.

basically, the more choices and abilities to execute them, the better.... and thanks for some well articulated thoughts.

NO

Is it the same? Not at all.

Based on the way a piano works I see no reason why this has to be the case. If the pedal is down and all the dampers are raised, why would it make any difference if two notes were connected by finger legato? It could make a difference depending on how quickly one plays those two keys for each part of the experiment, but it doesn't have to.

Just think of playing C followed by E with the pedal down before you start and held down for the entire "passage". If one has the physical sensation of connecting two notes with finger legato it may be easier for some people to make the notes sound connected but they certainly can sound the same whether one does or does not use finger legato.

There are other kinds of passages where trying to use finger legato can actually make it more difficult to make the passage sound legato. For me ,the LH part of the Rachmaninov Prelude I mentioned earlier would be an example of this although that is not true for everyone and both of the fingerings I mentioned are seen in editions.

If you look inside the piano for the C-E "passage", I see nothing happening that has to make the two methods sound different. The only difference is that without finger legato the hammer playing C will fall slightly earlier.

What do you mean how does it not make a difference? When you change pedal on each note to connect it, there is first of all the very obvious sound of the dampers lifting off the strings on the entire piano. With finger legato you don't have that. I'm no scientist but I am a musician and it sounds different. Because when you lift your hand and use the pedal you are pressing the key a different way than when you actually connect it. That makes a difference to the sound.

Not sure which example you are referring to here. If it's the opening of the Chopin Waltz I mentioned, one has to change pedals on the first two chords so the sound of the dampers lifting is a given. My point was that Rubinstein does not use finger legato to connect the chords...he just uses the pedal(although most editions indicate using finger plus pedal legato and I think most pianists play it that way).

It's your very last two sentences that I don't agree with.

Yeah I'm not surprised you disagree. You clearly don't hear the difference, that's fine. Some people don't. But it is different.

With finger legato there is a slight overlap of the notes which you don't get with pedal legato. So there. I'd be curious to hear how you play if this is really what you think. How would you do the adagio of op109 first movement? For the notes with dots and lines over them I use this "pedal legato" and lift my fingers to make it sound like what's written. And for the legato I connect with my fingers. They sound completely different!

P.S. That's not to say pedal legato shouldn't be used - of course sometimes it's completely necessary. I'm just saying they don't sound the same.

Actually, I think you've mistaken his hands. His LH lifts rather high, but his 5th finger connects to the 4th on the D#. (the G#-F# is not connected but you don't need to connect both notes to make it sound legato, only one - and he connects the top, so there you go).

legato means connected. I was told, " don't be afraid to use silence to connect the notes". This was easier to do on the classical guitar than when working with the natural echo that the piano offers.

They are totally different. It might not seem like it if you're sitting at the keyboard, but if you're listening any distance away from the piano, you couldn't confuse the two. If you can do it, the fine control of finger legato usually sounds better in a melodic sense than pedaling, which is more for atmospheric effects.

I always thought of pedal legato similar to finger legato, even though they have different effects on the sound.

I always thought of pedal legato in the way you play a note, (whilst the note is down) you put the pedal down, play another note, change the pedal. That is the kinda pedal I sparsely use in Bach Fugue's which is completely different to putting the pedal down for long bars in a chopin nocturne.

Whilst for finger legato you play a note, play another note whilst slightly overlapping the sound from the previous.
For me the difference between both of them comes in the sound. Finger legato sounds more connected but a bit drier (compared to pedal legato) whilst the pedal legato I don't think it sounds as connected as finger legato but still feels connected.

I am surprised to see everyone talking naturally about "pedal legato". Am I the only one who has never heard of "pedal legato"?

As far as I have always understood, pedal is played with the footand has nothing to do with legato. Legato is played with the hand, and has nothing to do with pedal.. "Pedal legato" doesn't exist.

Could be.

Well then could be I'm the only sane one here!

Maybe it is some kind of geographic/national/linguistic/cultural thing....

The way it was taught to me was as a way of connecting notes where finger legato was impossible, often to connect chords. To me, it is usually just a very light and short pedal that just makes the connection between notes, and is not necessarily a full pedal nor a held pedal. In a way, it is like a kind of flutter pedaling.

Don't forget that when you press the pedal down, you lift all the dampers off all the strings - not just the ones with keys depressed. Which is why pedal legato never sounds the same as finger legato: the undamped strings vibrate in sympathy with the ones that are struck.

Yes, it seems that it is his left hand, which is lifted. And, indeed, the G#-F# are not connected but they should not be. They are non-legato in the score. On the other hand, it seems to me that he lifts his RH immediately after the first G#, while the latter should be held into and through the whole next measure. Strange

Well there's you and me, at least. Not sure about "sane"!

This forum is a continuing source of bemusement to me as I encounter all sorts of concepts that don't seem to exist anywhere else, at least in my narrow realm of experience. There's "pedal legato" and the idea of taking piano lessons expressly so that one can pass piano examinations and who knows what all I'll discover tomorrow!

Apparently that is so. Still, for my part what you write next quite makes me fall off my chair!

Ha ! Me neither !

I am a creative writer without a lot of piano vocabulary in comparison to a student who lives, breathes and talks piano.. can't you just figure it out?

and.. everyone hears differently .. I had a pretty serious seizure this last year and afterwards my hearing improved considerably! go figure.

Dear Õun,

I hope that you didn't think that I was in some way trying to ridiculize what you wrote. I was not, and I am sincerely sorry if it came across to you in that way.

Wishing you nothing but the best,

l'Andorrano

oh no.. not at all L'Andorrano. I could write better - i could spend the time attempting to articulate precisely.. lord knows, I do know how... i just don't like to waste ink.

If you're referring to the example I gave with the two notes C followed by E, since the pedal was held down throughout it's not a question of a "slight overlap of the notes" with finger legato. Since the pedal was held down there is complete overlap of the two notes whether one uses finger legato or not.

I think some posters are perhaps not reading the thread carefully because there are more than two cases being discussed:finger legato without any pedal(a scale in classical music, finger legato plus legato(syncopated) pedaling(the way most pianists play the opening measure of Chopin's Waltz in C# minor, holding the pedal down and playing with or without finger legato(my example with the two notes), and pedal legato(synchopated pedaling) without finger legato(the way Rubinstein plays the opening measure of the Chopin Waltz or think of the Sunken Cathedral when both hands are playing four note chords.

I looked at the video four times and I see Rubinstein lifting his right hand after playing the E. So he connects the two chords only with legato (syncopated) pedaling.

What you've described in incorrect use of the pedal.


I agree with all but the first part of your first sentence. In Bach, one can rarely hold the pedal down for long periods because the notes would smudge and are not in the same harmony plus many pianists don't want to use much or any pedal in Bach on principle(the instruments he wrote for had no pedal). Thus one is forced to use finger legato and substitutions without pedal much of the time. This is no different from scale passages in Mozart.

But IMO pedal and finger legato are both true forms of legato since they both connect the sounds. This does not mean they can be used interchangeably on any passage.

"Smudging" occurs when pianists incorrectly use the pedal or use the pedal when it should not be used.

There are countless places where pedal legato is the only way to achieve a legato sound. The LH passages of Rachmaninov's Prelude in D from Op. 23, for example.

Legato pedaling is also called syncopated pedaling or indirect pedaling in some circles.

????? Then you, my friend, have bad vision. He obviously lifts his left hand. It looks confusing at first because it's so dark, but it's definitely the left hand.

Others agreed with me.

Nope. Ne does not. It is his left hand. But he does lift RH after the opening G#, which is strictly speaking incorrect. G# should be held depressed all the way through the 1st and the 2nd measures. Moreover, have a look at the repeat of the opening theme at 2.28. It is clearly seen that he connects E-D# and does not lift RH

I looked again about ten times and even stopped the video on the hand lift. I think you are both probably correct. It's hard to tell because everything is black silhouette.

But assuming I was wrong about this example, I think it hardly matters. Do you think there aren't other examples of where a great pianist has a choice to use finger plus pedal legato or just pedal legato and chooses the second?

Thank you guys for clarifying that it was the left hand. What pianoloverus said and what I heard were not matching up at all and I felt quite confused and bewildered that there could be such piano wizardry happening.

I don't know. May be. But I was taught that there is only one way to play legato and it is "finger" legato. Pedaling is actually something different and no way the real legato can be substituted by the pedaling. Nice example is Chopin Op.9 N.1. The middle part where the key is changed. The melody in RH is played by octaves and they all are connected. No pedal is indicated. But have a look at the fingering. Sometimes the octaves should be played with the 1st and the 3d fingers (tough, especially, if one has small hands) in order to connect with next ones played by the 1st - 4th and then 1st - 5th. Try to play all 1st - 5th but use the pedal to connect. You will see that it still sounds non-legato. No, you cannot substitute legato by the pedal. No.

I would think so.. however, i think he/she would more often choose a precision that involves both.

Everyone uses a lot of pedal in that place. In Chopin, if no pedal is indicated that does not mean pedal can't be used. That part would be an example where most pianists use finger legato and pedal legato together. I never said that there weren't many places where this approach would be better than just pedal legato.

Did you read Keith Kerman's example of his teacher playing legato octaves using just 1-5 only? Of course, most would find that method more difficult to do.

Yes, I did read it. Well...The greatest can surely do a lot of things but for us, mere mortals (at least for me ) , it would be more difficult than finger legato.

And what do you think of Chopin's Prelude OP.28. N6? According to the score no pedal is used throughout except of two measures in the middle. Should it still be pedaled? I have a recording of Maurizio Pollini playing it. You can clearly hear pedaling in those two measures otherwise it sounds pretty much like pure finger legato.

Rubenstein. I'd like to see Rubenstein's face when you ask him about his use of "pedal legato" when playing Chopin !

As Kreisler explained this is a common term. This type of pedalling is used endlessly in Romantic music(often in combination with finger legato). A simple example would be Chopin's Prelude in C minor where legato(syncopated)pedaling must be used since finger legato is not possible.

Yes, one must make sure to use the fourth pedal, which sustains only the notes you're thinking of.

I think(and Baile in her Chopin book agrees)that most pianists would pedal throughout and change mostly on every quarter note except possibly in any places Chopin indicated different pedaling. Baille also says that while in some pieces Chopin marks the pedaling in detail, in other pieces Chopin gives very little pedal indication. Not because he doesn't want pedal used throughout but because he thinks the pedaling is either obvious or so complex that it would be difficult to notate.

so.. it's not the same.

"It" referring to?

Syncopated pedaling is another term for it that I know; I don't think I've heard it called indirect pedaling before.

I don't understand your comment pianoloverus. Could you explain?

If using the pedal, for any reason, results in sustaining notes you don't want sustained, then why would a reasonable person do that? If someone knows something is giving the wrong result, why would they do it?

please refer to thread title for clue.. my grammar is as good as the fourth pedal.. you just have to kind of get the gyst to understand.

They're not the same and I don't think one poster has said that. Their goal is the same. One is done with the fingers and one is done with the pedal.

To summarize my view:

1. Some passages that need to sound legato must be played without pedal so finger legato is the only way(scales in classical period music).

2. Some passages that need to sound legato can be played that way only with the pedal since finger legato is impossible.(typically chordal passages like Chopin Prelude in C minor with legato syncopated pedalling, the LH of the Rach D major Prelude where the pedal is held down for each harmony)

3. Many passages use a combination of finger and pedal legato(most Romantic music)

4. Some passages where the pedal is held down can be played with or without finger legato with exactly equal effect/sound(the two note passage C-E I discussed at length, the LH passage of Rach Prelude in G minor,)

If it's a choice between not sustaining a crucial note (like a bass pedal point that the composer requests to be sustained for the whole bar, or several bars), or sustaining it but also the notes that follow it afterwards (which aren't in harmony), that you'd rather not sustain?

In some instances, with the right instrument (a piano with sostenuto pedal) and the right piece (e.g. Rachmaninov's Prelude in C# minor) you can do exactly what the composer requests. In others, you're between the water, the sharks, and the deep blue sea.

Like good politicians, sometimes you have to compromise....(unless you can achieve the result with pure finger legato ).

PL.. actually this thread was in response to a comment you made in the recording section (on the Chopin Nocturne No 20 in C sharp Minor (Steinway M))

"If it sounds legato where it should I don't think it makes any difference whether that is done with the fingers, the pedal, or some combination of those."

you have better clarified your thoughts and thanks. I just wanted to read other people's opinions on this. I don't know whether you were disagreeing with me to disagree or really thought this.

Personally, I am very precise or try to be, in EXACTLY how notes are sustained. (I play a lot of Bach and CHopin and also organ.. it's really fun for me to play around with how tones support, overlap, sustain and a challenge of course to play the score exactly as intended).

I love playing Bach totally without pedal but generally love to color the sound with pedalling.. just sharing a bit.

These kind of passages are very rare and today's grand pianos all have sostenuto pedals. If the piano has no sostenuto, then obviously one has to make a choice. I doubt the poster I was responding to was thinking about these very rare passages combined with playing on a piano without the middle pedal.

I don't think you read my post carefully. The comparison was between a passage played with finger legato and the pedal held down throughout vs. the same passage played without finger legato and the pedal held down throughout.
_________________________

There IS a difference, though in many cases the only way to tell is to be looking at the score while the person is playing, or have an excellent working knowledge of the score. I had a student this past weekend play a double third motif - 4 double thirds up in a tetrachord - and I could tell without looking at her that she hadn't played them legato, as indicated in the score. She did hold the damper down throughout the measure.

How do you know she just wasn't skillful enough at making them sound as if she used finger legato? The two methods don't automatically sound the same and for some passages it would be difficult to make the passage without finger legato sound as legato. Did you read Keith Kerman's example at the beginning of the thread?

My point is that(using the two note example I mentioned earlier to take difficulty out of the picture temporarily)there is nothing going on inside the piano to make the two note passage played sound different when played with or without finger legato.

Do you think you could tell the difference on the two note passage? I also don't see how looking at the score could ever help decide if the sound was legato.

I just tried this a few different ways on the piano. The fundamental difference between using your fingers to create legato and using the pedal instead is that the attack is different. Legato requires a sustaining touch; if you're looking to use the pedal, a tap will do. I found that I could get the same sound as my legato thirds and legato line by playing portato instead.

If I have to go through that much work just to fool my ear, I'd rather just play legato.

I think the arguments on this thread stem from a failure to agree on a definition of legato. So, despite being one of the least qualified here to do so, I'm going to throw out my own definition:

I think legato is a psycho-acoustic illusion produced to make the listener think that a piano is doing something that many other instruments do but which a piano is actually completely incapable of doing. In a violin or a clarinet, the bow or breath continues without interuption while the length of the string or tube is changed to change pitch. That is true legato. A piano can't do this, so we try to hit a succession of notes with a timing and a relative volume that gives the illusion of this happening.

Some may argue that the relative loudness of the notes is not legato, but phrasing. But if you accept that it is a psycho-acoustic illusion, then phrasing can be crucial to maintaing the illusion.

With this definition, both Pianoluverus and Minaku can be correct. Using the pedal can make the ends of notes overlap, but does nothing to affect the relative volume or attack, which may well be different, not because its impossible to imagine hitting disconnected notes the same way as notes connected with finger legato, but just because that's the way the hand works.

They are not the same.

You are absolutely correct in that it is a psychoacoustic illusion that we perpetuate on the listener. There's no other way to go about it. A true legato involves a milliseconds-long overlap of two frequencies.

An interesting and very related psychological phenomenon is the idea of liaisons between words. I went and grabbed my psychoacoustics textbook for this but unfortunately it doesn't address this issue; I believe my psycholinguistics text would have, but I no longer have it. Anyway, we humans are able to distinguish disparate words in speech even though the air flow is constant and there is no discernible break between words. We even append various consonants or vowels from the last word onto the next, making it more confusing. However, through certain factors such as consistency of volume and timbre, understanding of learned words, and continued conditioning that humans do in fact speak a certain way, babies can learn to understand human speech instead of hearing a stream of sound. Like gestalt psychology for the ear, to make another analogy.

It's this idea I want to see applied to legato. My old teacher in undergrad was on me constantly to match the sound from note to note. The human ear inherently listens for sounds that are consistent and thus applies it to the whole. So, to bring this back to legato, this is why pedaling non-legato yields a different sound than pedaling a legato. We do understand it to be one line. In that respect, the idea of legato is achieved; there are overlapping sounds and we take what we hear as one idea. But the sounds are not always consistent from one note to the next. Playing portato mimics this same-touch approach that you'd have with legato and that's why it sounds the same. We are matching the sound from one note to the next, deliberately addressing each note with the notion that the ear will naturally look for things that are the same and group them together.

This sound-matching in both attack and volume is what results ultimately in the most satisfying legato for me. It's like listening to a Shakespearean actor versus William Shatner. We understand both; William Shatner doesn't speak with a period between each word. The Shakespearean actor, however, is so much more pleasant to listen to.

Oh, dear. pianoloverus, you’ve garbled the post you quoted in a most unfortunate way. Had it not already been deleted when you hastily responded, it should have read as follows:


Now you are absolutely correct that *I* misread your post, and for that reason I deleted it almost immediately after posting because I realized my error. You’ve incorrectly attributed my language and my misunderstanding - which as I said were deleted! - to bennevis.

I apologize for misreading your post. I apologize to bennevis for a result that wrongly attributed my language to him or her. I think you should apologize as well for allowing your own post to stand with the knowledge that it was a *misrepresentation*.

The like notes, the C's in other octaves, for example, would resonate with the pedal engaged.

I wonder if people who can't (or won't) use the UBB tags properly shouldn't refrain from quoting?

It's not question of "fooling" your ear...it either does or does not sound legato. It's only fooling your ear if one assumes that a legato sound can only be achieved with legato fingers.

I never said one should always use pedal with non legato fingers to play legato when one has a choice between doing that and using pedal with legato fingers. I said sometimes it's easier to use pedal plus non legato fingers and that the same effect can be achieved as pedal plus legato touch. My example from way back was the Rach G minor Prelude.

And sometimes the only way to achieve a legato sound is with the pedal and non legato fingers because legato fingers are not possible(as in Chopin C minor Prelude or Rach D major Prelude).

Why should there be an overlap of frequencies? With most orchestral instruments and in singing, that's not even possible, yet they do legato playing and singing.

I should have been more specific in saying that a true piano legato. Other instruments have sustained sound from note to note, but the piano cannot physically do this, so we simulate it by overlapping sounds.

Pianoloverus, where in the Rach D major? Towards the end, where there are lots of octaves? LH legato and lots of phrasing in the RH chords will go a long way towards creating a legato line.

The opening two notes in the LH and every time the first two notes in that configuration are beyond reach. Just like the opening of the Chopin D flat Nocturne and throughout that piece in the LH. The legato can only be achieved by holding down the pedal.
Or the Chopin C minor Prelude, but here the legato can only be achieved only by syncopated pedaling.

The legato between the D and the A can be achieved by playing them with two separate hands with the sounds overlapping. What you won't get is the sonority of all the rest of the strings if you leave off the pedal.

Of course one can do that, but very few pianists choose that approach. Rachmaninov didn't write it that way and knew what he was doing. There are many other similar places in that same piece and throughout the Chopin D flat Nocturne where one cannot use two hands(because the RH is playing its own part) and the pedal is the only way to play legato.

Why you keep trying to deny the obvious is beyond me. There are tens of thousands of examples where pedal is the only way to achieve legato.

You can achieve legato with the pedal, but do not equate it with a legato done with the hand. They are not the same.

As for the Rachmaninoff, there's a lot of hand crossing going on in the piece anyway, and splitting the opening figures is a creative way of getting around the legato while still being faithful to the way Rachmaninoff intended it.

I never said it can't be done, but even the examples you've given you can still have a legato in the hand, without the pedal. I stand by my statement that the two are not the same, and if you want one to sound like the other you have to approach the piano with a different touch.