from a recent discussion..

does it sound the same? which is better? should one even learn finger legato?

I have my own opinions.


your thoughts?

'Pedal legato' creates a wash of sound, sustaining all the notes including ones that you don't want sustained. Finger legato is true legato and often requires substituting fingers while holding down the key to enable you to play seamlessly without a break in the melodic line - all organists do that as a matter of course because they don't have sustaining pedal. I don't think you can play Bach properly on the piano without good finger legato.

Lazy pianists who use the pedal routinely rather than their fingers to sustain the melody give the impression of having an 'unclean' sound.......

Finger legato, like standard legato? Connect two sounds by overlapping them kind of legato?

Because if that's the kind of legato that's being discussed, then absolutely! I'm flummoxed that it's even a question. Of course one has to learn finger legato, it's a foundation technique for piano. If the legato does not exist in the hand, then it will not exist with the pedal. The pedal can't catch what isn't there.

Hi Apple,

They are not mutually exclusive. Use pedal to enhance your finger legato. This may mean releasing and reengaging the pedal on every note, or even flutter pedaling, very subtle 1/2 and 1/4 pedalings etc etc

Ultimately, it is your ear and purpose that determine your legato.

The best octave legato I have ever heard was by my old teacher Julian Martin who demonstrated an octave legato only using the 5th finger on the top note, so none of the top notes were physically connected, and obviously none of the bottom notes of the octaves were connected, but the sound he got was the most compelling and convincing legato I had heard on octaves.
Of course Julian was a super human musician with ears that were from some sort of future space alien technology, but it sure changed the way I thought about legato.

Legato refers to the sound being connected.

Finger legato and pedal legato are not the same, but they can accomplish the same thing(this is not the same as saying one can always replace the other for any passage). Also, it's not really a question of one or the other...both are needed to play the standard literature and often used in combination.

If one is playing a scale in Mozart and one wants a legato sound this would be done with finger legato and usually no pedal. If one is playing the Great Gate at Kiev opening one must use the standard syncopated pedaling to make the opening chords legato. If one is playing the opening measure of Chopin's Waltz in C# minor, one could use a combination of finger and pedal legato or, as this pianist demonstrates, just pedal legato to connect the two RH chords:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehSKhRburRQ

An example where I think pedal plus finger legato is more useful than an attempt to connect the fingers with perfect finger legato would be the LH arpgeggios in the middle section of Rachmaninov's Prelude in G minor. Although the opening arpeggio can be played 5-2-1-4-2-1-2 I think 5-2-1-5-3-2-1 is easier and gets a better result.

I think there is some confusion about these terms because students usually learn finger legato first, so they may be inclined of thinking of legato requiring a physical connection of the notes by the fingers.

I tend to call what you term "finger legato" just "legato" and what you term "pedal legato" just "pedal". Definitely two different sounding things that can be used jointly or severally.

My piano teacher has me practicing my songs sans pedal until I can get them phrased properly (typically legato) with just my fingers, then adding appropriate application of the damper pedal for the desired final sound. Lord knows my legato needs the work.

Even with the pedeal down I can definitely hear a difference when my teacher demonstrates legato fingering vs. non-legato. It comes through anyway.

They can be made to sound exactly the same IMO. The Chopin Waltz and Rachmaninov Prelude are examples.

There are some occasions where use of the pedal is necessary to produce or maintain a legato effect. Mostly though, I think the pedal should be used for coloration and producing a sound rich in harmonics, not as a crutch to cover up an inadequate or lazy technique. I say this as one who is sometimes guilty of this latter offense.

How are those examples?

No. Depends on what you want to achieveAbsolutely.
There you go.

Rubinstein lifts his RH very high after playing the E so he is using only pedal to play legato to the D#. Most editions have legato fingering indicated(2-5 followed by 1-4).

i agree with you Damon. completely.

for clarity, options for expression, closely reading the score.. finger legato is of course an absolute.

i was just surprised recently when an advanced pianist said it sounded the same as using the pedal.. something like that.

i had a teacher for a while, too short of a while, and learning the difference and exploiting both 'methods' of legato and learning to really listen was a subject for focus. Different legatos certainly do NOT sound the same... for instance, the resonance of octaves notes is a whole nuther factor. Even if the pedal is depressed anyway, one can hear the finger legato.

basically, the more choices and abilities to execute them, the better.... and thanks for some well articulated thoughts.

NO

Is it the same? Not at all.

Based on the way a piano works I see no reason why this has to be the case. If the pedal is down and all the dampers are raised, why would it make any difference if two notes were connected by finger legato? It could make a difference depending on how quickly one plays those two keys for each part of the experiment, but it doesn't have to.

Just think of playing C followed by E with the pedal down before you start and held down for the entire "passage". If one has the physical sensation of connecting two notes with finger legato it may be easier for some people to make the notes sound connected but they certainly can sound the same whether one does or does not use finger legato.

There are other kinds of passages where trying to use finger legato can actually make it more difficult to make the passage sound legato. For me ,the LH part of the Rachmaninov Prelude I mentioned earlier would be an example of this although that is not true for everyone and both of the fingerings I mentioned are seen in editions.

If you look inside the piano for the C-E "passage", I see nothing happening that has to make the two methods sound different. The only difference is that without finger legato the hammer playing C will fall slightly earlier.

What do you mean how does it not make a difference? When you change pedal on each note to connect it, there is first of all the very obvious sound of the dampers lifting off the strings on the entire piano. With finger legato you don't have that. I'm no scientist but I am a musician and it sounds different. Because when you lift your hand and use the pedal you are pressing the key a different way than when you actually connect it. That makes a difference to the sound.

Not sure which example you are referring to here. If it's the opening of the Chopin Waltz I mentioned, one has to change pedals on the first two chords so the sound of the dampers lifting is a given. My point was that Rubinstein does not use finger legato to connect the chords...he just uses the pedal(although most editions indicate using finger plus pedal legato and I think most pianists play it that way).

It's your very last two sentences that I don't agree with.

Yeah I'm not surprised you disagree. You clearly don't hear the difference, that's fine. Some people don't. But it is different.

With finger legato there is a slight overlap of the notes which you don't get with pedal legato. So there. I'd be curious to hear how you play if this is really what you think. How would you do the adagio of op109 first movement? For the notes with dots and lines over them I use this "pedal legato" and lift my fingers to make it sound like what's written. And for the legato I connect with my fingers. They sound completely different!

P.S. That's not to say pedal legato shouldn't be used - of course sometimes it's completely necessary. I'm just saying they don't sound the same.

Actually, I think you've mistaken his hands. His LH lifts rather high, but his 5th finger connects to the 4th on the D#. (the G#-F# is not connected but you don't need to connect both notes to make it sound legato, only one - and he connects the top, so there you go).

legato means connected. I was told, " don't be afraid to use silence to connect the notes". This was easier to do on the classical guitar than when working with the natural echo that the piano offers.

They are totally different. It might not seem like it if you're sitting at the keyboard, but if you're listening any distance away from the piano, you couldn't confuse the two. If you can do it, the fine control of finger legato usually sounds better in a melodic sense than pedaling, which is more for atmospheric effects.

I always thought of pedal legato similar to finger legato, even though they have different effects on the sound.

I always thought of pedal legato in the way you play a note, (whilst the note is down) you put the pedal down, play another note, change the pedal. That is the kinda pedal I sparsely use in Bach Fugue's which is completely different to putting the pedal down for long bars in a chopin nocturne.

Whilst for finger legato you play a note, play another note whilst slightly overlapping the sound from the previous.
For me the difference between both of them comes in the sound. Finger legato sounds more connected but a bit drier (compared to pedal legato) whilst the pedal legato I don't think it sounds as connected as finger legato but still feels connected.

I am surprised to see everyone talking naturally about "pedal legato". Am I the only one who has never heard of "pedal legato"?

As far as I have always understood, pedal is played with the footand has nothing to do with legato. Legato is played with the hand, and has nothing to do with pedal.. "Pedal legato" doesn't exist.

Could be.

Well then could be I'm the only sane one here!

Maybe it is some kind of geographic/national/linguistic/cultural thing....

The way it was taught to me was as a way of connecting notes where finger legato was impossible, often to connect chords. To me, it is usually just a very light and short pedal that just makes the connection between notes, and is not necessarily a full pedal nor a held pedal. In a way, it is like a kind of flutter pedaling.

Don't forget that when you press the pedal down, you lift all the dampers off all the strings - not just the ones with keys depressed. Which is why pedal legato never sounds the same as finger legato: the undamped strings vibrate in sympathy with the ones that are struck.

Yes, it seems that it is his left hand, which is lifted. And, indeed, the G#-F# are not connected but they should not be. They are non-legato in the score. On the other hand, it seems to me that he lifts his RH immediately after the first G#, while the latter should be held into and through the whole next measure. Strange

Well there's you and me, at least. Not sure about "sane"!

This forum is a continuing source of bemusement to me as I encounter all sorts of concepts that don't seem to exist anywhere else, at least in my narrow realm of experience. There's "pedal legato" and the idea of taking piano lessons expressly so that one can pass piano examinations and who knows what all I'll discover tomorrow!