I have been a member of the Piano Forum for a relatively short time, and most of that duration was spent researching the advantages and drawbacks in purchasing certain grand pianos in a limited price range. More recently I have been delving into the general topics, and I am truly surprised at the number of complaints that ADULT students have about their piano teachers. In particular, I am astounded by the nature of the criticisms themselves: *My teacher makes me work on scales. *My teacher doesn’t want me to use XYZ Method. *My teacher says I am not ready for theory. *My teacher mainly just listens at my lessons. *My teacher won’t let me progress as rapidly as I want. *My teacher does not let me play the kind of music I desire. *My teacher writes in my lesson books. *My teacher doesn’t give me the positive encouragement I crave. *My teacher will not teach me jazz. *My teacher touches my hands. *This is my fourth teacher, and I don’t think he is any better. – to paraphrase just a few.

At the very heart of many of these complaints seems to be student impatience. Somewhere along the line most of us have lost the capacity to wait for results. Fast food, overnight delivery, wire transfers, information at your fingertips, instant messaging, and immediate gratification. Then we venture (rush ! ?) into the world of music, where accomplishing anything with any lasting significance requires a lot of time, and tons of effort. It is sort of like having a baby, in that it takes as long as it takes. We might want it to go faster, but . . .

Pondering this: I am neither a teacher, nor the student of a teacher, but have served as both in the past. I consider myself most fortunate to have had very (VERY) demanding teachers. While educating others may have been their chosen profession, they were effective music teachers because THEY SERVED THE MUSIC before they served their students. Their love was OF THE MUSIC first, and then imparting whatever it took to get this beautiful thing into the hands (and under the fingers . . .) of those who were willing to listen and work hard. Because they knew exactly what they were doing, and because of their accomplishments, these teachers commanded respect. I certainly did not always agree with their techniques, their criticisms, their opinions, their repertoire, or their insistence upon my doing things their way; but their obvious capabilities overshadowed all that. I did what they asked BECAUSE I was their student. As if by a miracle, those of us who allowed the teachers to guide us made big gains; and those who didn’t, . . . well . . .didn’t. In retrospect, the disciplined work required by demanding teachers paid huge dividends, and far more than just musical ones!

I have already been criticized on the Forum for implying that ADULT students need to follow the advice of their teachers - after all, ADULT students are paying good money for their lessons, and should get what they want. Well, to state the obvious, a Master/Apprentice style relationship is going to be rare. Nevertheless, a certain amount of the servitude involved in that relationship is necessary in the successful Teacher/Student thing. The teacher serves the student with his/her expert knowledge; and the student serves the teacher with respect for the teacher’s opinions, and with the student’s hard work. When, and if, BIG obstacles to the continued relationship arise (and I am not referring to the insistence upon scales, nor the touching of hands on the keyboard), it is the responsibility of the student to communicate, and make changes if necessary. After all, in most cases, the teacher is doing his/her part - he/she is serving music, and attempting to pass it on.

It’s just an opinion.
Ed

You make a very good point. And I have definitely learned over the years to just do what my teacher says because she knows better than I do.

But, there are definitely some teachers out there (as with anythings else) that aren't really good at what they do and you have to be able to differentiate between that or just being dissatisfied with the teaching style. There are as many different types of learners as there are teachers styles and some work better together than others. But I agree we can learn from everyone.

I once took a class with a teacher that, after explaining that you can remember A C E G by repeating All Cows Eat Grass, proceeded to mimic a cow eating grass. Hysterical! Except we were all adults and he kind of looked like an idiot.

You both make good points. I've been fortunate to have great music teachers throughout my life. However, I've had a few non-musical teachers who were awful. More of a "good, now do page 2" teacher. I think the flaw in LoPresti's theory is believing that all piano teachers love to teach, which I don't believe to be the case. Sure, many of us do love teaching. But I've inherited students from teachers these students studied with for years without really learning much of anything useful. They blindly went through some random method book the way my college history teacher went through the material, read the chapter, do the test, little to no "teaching". The other assumption is that all teachers are qualified to teach. Again, mostly true, but there are some teachers who don't have the background for teaching and start out doing it as more of a hobby. So I guess the main thing is, buyer beware. Yes, you want to be able to trust your teacher to guide you to better playing, but you also have to be able to notice when you might be guided down the wrong path. Finally, people are more willing to complain about a bad teacher than to praise a good one on forums. So obviously we'd be reading more of the bad.

For the record, I think learning your notes by remembering little sayings is the worst idea we music teachers have come up with. I don't even teach kids that way. More of the, learn the saying to pass the test, idea. Holds you back from really learning the notes IMO.

But - Brian, isn't it true that "Great Big Dogs Fight Animals"? I thought that was gospel truth!

Those damn bell curves apply to students AND piano teachers, alike, and we always have the fringes. And I am certainly not advocating that any student blindly follow someone who is masquerading as a teacher, without either producing some satisfactory results. I sort of assume that when an adult selects a teacher, that student has done some “homework”, and is picking because of past reputation and results.

My post is keying more on the nature of the students’ complaints - most of which have absolutely nothing to do with the professional competence of their teacher, but in detailed preferences, in style, in timing - maybe even in the philosophical aspects of what it is important to teach/learn. But those are the exact things one DOES learn from a teacher. There are great teachers, good teachers, mediocre, and the rest of the lot. But those student criticisms are . . . . well - I hear echoes of my eleven-year-old grand daughter!

Ed

I agree 100% It just slows you down. My reading improved significantly when I stopped doing that. I just decided one day to quiz myself (away from music/piano) and I would just say "third line B", "second space A" (in treble clef of course). Then I'd quiz myself in the bass clef the same way. It made a HUGE difference.

I also think, at least for piano, they should teach the grand staff a whole much sooner.

and BTW: yes! I know plenty of teachers that are not really meant to be teachers. They either don't know how to explain things on a level everyone can understand or they are, like you said, read the chapter answer the question types.

I was very grateful I had some AMAZING teachers in some of the classes I've taken through work. Including a music theory and composition class I took. And good thing I did because the professor retired after that.

I find it interesting and helpful to hear about what lessons are like for other adults. It is interesting the different techniques used by different teachers. I think it is perfectly normal and healthy for people to ask questions and express frustrations or concerns sometimes. Isn't that in part what the community here is for? Support and information sharing.

Yup, Kymber, pearls of wisdom! Unfortunately, many will drop by the proverbial wayside, from discouragement. before arriving at that revelation.



No wonder you had such trouble with note names! Everyone knows that spaces in the F-clef are taken directly from the phrase "All Cars Eat Gas".



Probably no cause/effect dynamics working there! (I should probably follow this with some little smiley face, so no one misinterprets.)

Ed

Well, I don't have a teacher, and haven't had one in 50 years But I don't personally have a problem with an adult that wants to learn a particular style to the exclusion of other styles. I don't play classical music and don't want to, so *if* I ever got a teacher I'd for sure want one that doesn't insist on classical. Life's like that when you're 66

So I think there's probably a percentage (100?) of differences of opinion with one's teacher that are quite legitimate, and I appreciate the fact that people who are posting here are taken seriously. I think most of them are open to differing opinions, and even if they aren't they're going to have responses that are differing opinions

I have no problem at all with the content of the posts about students and teachers.

Cathy

Nevermind.. this thread is just complaining...

well, I certainly agree that patience seems to be an uncommon virtue in society these days. Now. Yesterday, preferably!

I also think it's rather difficult for most adults to be told what to do and, perhaps, really trust someone else's expertise. Of course, neither applies to MOI.....

Hi Cathy,

It has been a very long time for me, also. However, not so long that I can not remember this:



Like you, I certainly believe that anyone WHO IS ALREADY PLAYING deserves to pursue whatever genre or style he/she prefers. However, the vast majority of the posters who have the complaints I am citing are still working on the rudiments of playing – on the very basics of piano. Most are a long way from specializing.





To elaborate, I think differences of opinion are as healthy as they are common. Indeed, they create a unique dynamic in the teacher/student relationship. But the notion of publicly complaining about those differences, especially without first having discussed them with one’s teacher, seems childish to me. And the concept of hopping to another teacher simply because he/she (at first) seems to have less differences of opinion, or is more willing to bend to what the student wants -- It’s the Grass is Always Greener Syndrome -- and in the long run, does not benefit the student.

Ed

When I enter into a doctor/patient relationship with a physician, I only do so if I feel I can trust him or her and fully comply with whatever treatment or other instructions I received.

By the same token, I know not to take my sore knee to a knee surgeon and expect anything other than an offer to do surgery on it. It's what surgeons do and to the extent there's any room for difference of opinion as to treatment, a surgeon is likely to favor surgery.

I suspect a somewhat similar dynamic might apply to entering a student/teacher relationship. Given the necessity of trusting the teacher's superior knowledge and experience one would do well to establish as early as possible the direction in which that teacher wishes to lead. And it may be best to seek a second opinion if that direction does not comport with ones own goals and preferences.

I would just like to say, in defence of all those impatient ADULT students who have had or are having problems with their instructor, the following:

Just because someone can accomplish something with certain degree expertise, does not mean that same person can teach that same thing with an equal amount of expertise. Teaching is a skill that needs to be learned, just as much as playing the piano is. There is an obvious flaw in reasoning that "if a person can play Chopin brilliantly, they must be able to teach Chopin brilliantly."

Brent,

As usual, the very voice of reason. I would not attend Juillard to study Jazz, and I wouldn't go to Berklee for Classical training.

Thanks,
Ed

Brent (a bit OT ), in the medical field, we say " if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail!"

I've noticed a similar dynamic in the teacher/student relationship for piano as I have noticed for learning Japanese. It's not just about impatience (though that is certainly a part of it), but the ability of adult students to research and analyze the situation, which leads us to think we know best. Reading PW forums puts a lot of ideas in my head about what my piano lessons should be like, for example. I would never have thought to ask my teacher about scales and Hanon if I hadn't read about it here. A whole lifetime of educational experiences have taught us a lot about ourselves and the way we learn. Children don't usually question their education in that way.

I think another issue is that the teacher doesn't always know or fully appreciate what the student wants to get out of the class. This can be a communication issue (if you don't tell them, they certainly won't know), but sometimes it's the teacher not fully getting it. My Japanese teacher doesn't get that I have no desire to pass a test to get into Japanese university. I just want to have conversations with people. Sometimes, though, we students don't get what it takes to reach our goals. I really don't think reading hiragana and kanji is going to help me speak Japanese better, but MAYBE my teacher knows better. Sorry I couldn't come up with a piano equivalent here: I'm really happy with my teacher, and though we've had very small issues (mostly me reading too much on the internet and suggesting things I may not be ready for), we work really well together. Japanese isn't going so well, though. I quit my lessons deciding that the best way to have conversations with people is to go out and have conversations with people.

Yes, you've made that clear



I read most of the posts in a different light. I hear people gathering information - here's what I find problematic, what do you think? And I don't find it unusual for adults to do that.

Maybe beauty is in the eye of the beholder

Cathy

I wouldn't go as far as LoPresti but it often does strike me as odd to read here of such (apparently) severe disappointment, frustration or confusion about Why Is My Teacher Not Doing [fill in the blank] when it obvious that the student has not even broached the matter with said teacher.

To torture my physician analogy a bit, it's like confiding in your friends that the medicine your doctor prescribe is making you sick so you're not taking it but refusing to mention the problem to the one person best equipped to address it. Are people really that intimidated by piano teachers?

What a profoundly righteous statement.

MMmmmm what am I doing now?

The teaching style of Maria Joao Pires




The teaching style of Daniel Barenboim



Here is a question for LoPresti, with a bit of a pre-amble: Both these people are brilliant pianists, to be sure, and (for arguments sake) lets say both are equally brilliant instructors as well. However, I (personally speaking) find almost everything Maria Joao Pires says completely nonsensical. "The space is given by time, no time," "that was nothing, it was good but it was nothing," etc. To be quite honest, I don't think you could even pay me to take lessons from this woman.

Barenboim on the other hand is articulate, seems to have a firmer grasp on the compositional elements that make piece work, and appears (if you watch the part with David Kadouch) to be more sensitive to what the pianist is feeling at present. Pires, though, seems completely oblivious to the fact that she is clearly agitating that poor pianist at the beginning, (its a wonder he could play at all). i.e. Barenboim is someone I think I would be comfortable around.

Anyway, if I was to find myself in a situation where I got an instructor like Pires (someone who I clearly would be genuinely unhappy with), should I just suck it up, do what she says, and stick with her because she is a great pianist who many people consider to be an excellent instructor, or should I go in search of someone with more of Barenboim's character?

First of all, a couple of comments: I thoroughly enjoyed those master class excerpts, and would have felt honored to sit in the “audience” at either one. Thank you for posting them!

While both incredibly enjoyable sessions, they certainly are diametrically opposed in a number of ways: Because the musical material is completely different, each performance “needs” very different things from the performers, AND their “teachers”. Pires is digging for more expression, coming from almost pure emotion. Her “method” for uncovering this emotion is through creating these feelings in her (very gifted) student(s). Not talk, not analysis, but expression. Agitation or not, the results speak (well – sound) for themselves. Pure conjecture, but that young fellow has probably never sounded like that before in his life!

Barenboim is working with a much more technically demanding selection. And, great teacher that he appears to be, he is treating the refinements technically, and in excruciating detail. Because of the details he is striving for, he amplifies most examples with additional verbal commentary. It is certainly more rigorous, and he wants to leave less room for ambiguity. I certainly do not know the man personally, but I would bet this teaching style is a good part of Barenboim's personality. He is looking for almost mechanical nuance, and he gets it. Again, superior results.

Finally, to your question (and here I am forced to really stretch my imagination!): If I felt my playing needed more of what Maestro Barenboim could provide, I would switch, BUT ONLY AFTER GETTING EVERYTHING POSSIBLE from my studies with Maestra Pires. I would have to feel that there was no more to be gotten from my present teacher.

Lastly, bringing our discussion back to the real (Piano) world, folks on this Forum are not questioning their teacher’s wisdom about how long to pause before introducing the modulation (one half second, or three-quarters of a second). Instead, they are second-guessing if it is really necessary to work on those troublesome scales. Once one has truly out-grown one’s teacher, it is then time to move on. But until that point, put yourself in their hands, and let them teach, and concentrate on learning.

That is how I think of it.

I remember reading two teachers talking.
One said: I've got this really talented student. Soaks up everything. Learns everything quick. It's just a pleasure to work with him.
Second teacher said: Oh those students are so rare. It is such a joy when you get one.

So there's another side to the coin.
We do need to be wise. Go with what works best for us.

So if I am understanding this correctly, you would, in spite of the fact that you (in this hypothetical situation) cannot stand Pires and have essentially no clue what she is going on about, you would still suffer through potentially years of lessons with her?

I really have to wonder how productive could that possibly be. Surely it would be a waste of both your time. Do you not think it might be possible to find a someone with whom the same musical elements can be articulated (as you would get studying with Pires) but in a more coherent and thoughtful manner?


But here is a bigger problem:
What if she is just a lousy teacher? She might play any piece you put in front of her brilliantly, but there is certainly no guarantee that she will be able to teach it brilliantly. As I stated earlier, just because someone can accomplish something with certain degree expertise, does not mean that same person can teach that same thing with an equal amount of expertise. Teaching is a skill that needs to be learned, just as much as playing the piano is. In light of this potentiality, it only seems healthy and natural that Adults should question whether they are getting good instruction.

The key in any one-on-one teaching relationship is bilateral communication. Neither teachers nor students are perfect, but a student (especially an adult) has a responsibility (to herself above all) to make clear to the teacher what seems not to be working well.

There are many more layers than this explanation. What about musical goals which would not be served well through repetitive technical drills? Truly lackluster teachers? And the competing responsibilities adults must carry?



No, if she's serving her own music more than teaching you how to play the piano, switch immediately.

Well, let's see - You asked a theoretical question. I responded with what I thought was a fairly complete answer. And now you are interpreting my answer, AND changing the question. Neither you nor I is going to study with Pires or Barenboim, if in fact either of them has regular students, so it seems a moot point.

Ed

I could not agree more. There needs to be a commitment to making the arrangement work.

Ed

I think it is something else besides the fast times we live in that creates the impatience. Children start music lessons with little in the way of expectations, lower thresholds for songs they find enjoyable, and the capacity to spend time on repetitive tasks.

Adults often start music lessons because they love some particular (or genre) of music and want to play it. After listening to Barenboim, or Oscar Peterson, or whoever you love to listen to, you think, I want to be able to play that, sitting in front of a keyboard struggling through "Mary Had a Little Lamb" for weeks might seem like a pretty hard road to get to that place that we have in mind. There is a greater gulf between what is in an adult's imagination and what they can do in the beginning than what is in a child's mind. I am lucky in that I made it through a childhood of music lessons as a child and teenager (cello), and have been through the process. Now, as an adult beginner piano student, I realize I have to play a lot of scales, often seemingly banal songs, and repeat a one page tune over and over (and individual phrases even more!). This is not what I want from the piano. But, I realize it will take a couple or more of years of that to get to a place where I can play what I want to play. But, that patience is hard to come by, and it is a struggle. It is easy to blame that struggle on a teacher (good or bad - there are certainly both). But I am not aware that there are many shortcuts to becoming a competent pianist. And I don't want a teacher that will try to give me shortcuts, that shortchange my abilities in the long run.

Lain,

Here's another philosophical difference of opinion in what MAKES a good teacher:



My contention is that, BECAUSE she [or he] is serving her [or his] own music, she [he] IS teaching in a far richer way.

Ed

WhitFit,

Sounds like you are describing me.

Seriously - those are great insights! That cold Canadian air must keep the synapses firing at a higher rate.

Ed

AH HA! Now it all makes sense.

I couldn't agree more. I know someone who has a degree in music and they would try to teach me music theory but didn't know how to explain it in simplified terms so beginner could understand it. It was so confusing to me at that time that I thought I would never understand it. I also had a piano teacher the was really nasty (haven't we all had one of those). I dreaded my lessons and started to believe that I just wasn't capable of learning to play the piano.

It's unfortunate because I think there are a lot of teachers out there not doing a good job but the students turn it onto themselves. Sadly some people quit before they realize that they are capable of learning the piano or music theory.

G A G S ? What clef do those notes belong to? (j/k)

Very good point! We need see it from their perspective as well.
And we also need to take a look at ourselves before we judge others.

I am not "interpreting" your answer, I am questioning it. It was stated in my hypothetical scenario that Pires style would be disliked. I think you kind of missed the point. The point of Pires and Barenboim was simply to ask you if you think teaching can be productive when the personality of the student and the teacher are opposite to each other, and whether or not it would be appropriate in such a case for a student to find a new instructor (which would mean questioning their current instructor).

I am also not changing the question, I merely made that last remark in reference to my first post on this thread which has been ignored by you. Nothing about a person's expertise or love of music necessitates them being a good instructor.

Fair enough, except "serving one's music" does not in any way guarantee superb teaching skills, so no student ought to blindly serve a teacher on the basis of the teacher's service to his or her own music. The art of music pedagogy is perhaps far more complex than the linear relationship implied by your use of servile language, such as "serving" and "servitude."

Since we have shifted to the topic of effective teachers, I think it might be INSTRUCTIONAL to add some dialog from the students to the excellent snippets of master classes provided by polyphasicpianist. None of our “students” in these master classes has any critique for their “teacher”, but if they did, I am certain it would sound something like this.

First, Maestro Barenboim, who everyone agrees would make an excellent teacher:


[*] “I haven’t really dared tell you until now, but I don’t really like this Ludwig guy.”
[*] “My former teacher just sat there and listened - would you like a glass of water or something?”
[*] “You may not remember, but one of my goals was to play jazz.”
[*] “If you keep picking on every little thing, we’re never gonna make any progress.”


And, just so she does not feel left out, Maestra Pires, who no one on this Forum would want as a teacher, being non-communicative as she is. .


[*] “You specifically promised that we could work on theory this time”
[*] “I feel threatened when you won’t let me look at my hands.”
[*] “At least you stopped scribbling in my lesson books.”
[*] “I don’t like it when you TOUCH me there.”

Ed

The topic hasn't shifted. You said in your OP that "At the very heart of many of these complaints seems to be student impatience." And a lot of people here are saying that the situation is more complicated than that for the very simple reason that the both the effectiveness of the instructor as an instructor of piano, and any potential personality conflicts, need to be taken into consideration. Given that either of these things may be interfering with the learning process it is seems a perfectly healthy thing for some people to have questions about the quality of instruction they are receiving, especially if they are novices of the piano who haven't a lot of experience dealing with the complexities of Adult student-teacher relationships.

I don't like him either. But we're stuck with him.

At this point, a couple bottles of Glenlevit is more like it.

Then go bug jazzwee.
When did we start making progress?


This theory isn't good enough? What were you expecting? Quantum Physics?

Then look at your hands. And quit touching yourself there.

Those are lesson books?

I refuse to touch you where you want me to.

A hearty Thank You, Ron. That is just what this thread needed at this point!

Ed

I see where you're going with this because of your former observations, but this could be turned into sense rather than nonsense.

The two examples are masterclasses meant for advanced students. They have technique and musical understanding already. Also, masterclasses don't function like lessons. I think that PPP who put up these examples is an advanced student (not sure).

The imaginary *] quote you put up paraphrases a comment in the ABF by an adult beginner. A beginner needs guidance in all aspects: the piece itself, how to approach it, how to move at the piano, how to practice specifically and how to organize that practising. Meanwhile it is common for adult students to not get much guidance because so much confusion reigns about how to teach us and what we want. Plus we may not know what is needed.

If someone says "My teacher just sits there and listens." I'd want to respond by seeing what is going on, if there is actually a problem, and what its nature may be. If the student's guidance is no more than "the note in m. 3 is A#" and "do the next page" (week after week) you'll probably want to talk to the teacher and get some goals established. This is not pertinent to the masterclasses because a) the student should have the skills and can work independently and b) it's a masterclass, not a lesson.

In a masterclass, the teacher can highlight some major points but he can't do that much teaching. In lessons the teacher builds from week to week. The essence of lessons is continuance. Lesson with interaction => work on those things at home => teacher sees what has developed from the practicing in the next lesson, and builds on that. The teacher can't build unless the student practices. The student can't practice effectively unless properly guided. It's a double edge synergy if you will.

As someone else wrote, the adult student - teacher scenario is complicated. As well, we have a pile of backgrounds and reasons for studying piano.

I am glad you joined us on the topic, and I am hoping you will post some of your thoughts about the agreement on goals between student and teacher.

And, naturally, while those master class videos have nothing to do with a lesson setting, I really enjoyed their content. In fact, I can't imagine any artist, of the calibre to conduct true master classes, who would still maintain private students. If there are, they are few in number.

Ed

Why does Pires discourage students from looking at the keyboard while playing?

Michelangeli and Horowitz looked at the keyboard when playing.

I was puzzled about the whole keyboard thing when I restarted on my own 3 years ago and got it wrong. For beginners the idea is for us to be able to read music and not depend on memory and the look of our fingers on the keys. So the aim is FOR a reading ability and independence, but it comes across as *against* looking at the keys. In my case it created a kind of unnatural stiffness because we tend to look toward where we move, and our head is attached to the rest of us. Also not ever looking makes one play like a blind person with the fingers creeping close on the keys whereas you want to be able to make larger and freer motions at times. Not to mention accurate large leaps.

Pires isn't teaching a beginner so it can't be "reading". I wonder if it's body use - like if you look up your torso also elevates more? Or maybe for feeling the music more and rising beyond the notes? Or maybe to engage the ears and imagination more? Or because of what she observed with this particular pianist?

I think it's gospel truth like "the sun revolves around the earth" used to be gospel truth.

By the way, kids typically slump over and say "I'm tired today" when they haven't practiced. Haven't noticed similarities in adults who haven't practiced much. But I do love seeing the excitement when a student comes in to show me how they've mastered the concept we were working on.

I just think complaining is a more natural human trait. We should all be more aware of trying to balance that with "uncomplaining" about the good things.

Kymber, the way I teach sight reading (and the way I read myself) is to look for a few main notes and relate all the other notes around them. If you know where C is, D is above it, B is below it. Far easier than trying to remember a bunch of sayings or memorizing every note. Besides, ledger lines don't have any fancy sayings.

Agreed! In fact I once started keeping an "abundance list" I would jot down anything and everything good and positive big or small that happened through out the day. I have to say it was amazing how many things I would have and did forget about had it not been on that list. Yet we somehow managed to remember something that annoyed us three days ago-ha ha. After a while the appreciation started to become second nature. And I have to say living in a world where you are seeking out the good and diminishing the negative is a much more pleasant existence.


yes, great advice, reading in intervals as opposed to each individual note. I'm starting to get better at that. Its funny I notice sometimes I seems the less I think about it the better I do. I guess it's all just a part of the process.

The title of the post sounds like something potentially way more lascivious than what is actually taking place here. Ah well...

Sorry to disappoint. Are you volunteering to spice things up?

Work is a little boring today, sorry :-).

Becca,

You are absolutely right! I am complaining about all the needless complaining.

Sort of like sending out millions of flyers to announce the government's New Paper Reduction Act.

Ed

And needlessly so, I might add.

So, Brent, is that a complaint?

Ed

It's not a simple question, as people have been saying. I had to delve into it because I got caught out as a student first time round. First thing, (1) borrowing from your OP:

(1) cont.: My assumption as student was: Playing requires certain skills which are taught in a given order, which all students will get generally in the same manner. The governing factor is what is needed to that end. But it is not always so. Students won't necessarily follow this, so teachers may aim toward what attracts the student. Or teaching is toward results in exams or competitions (for kids), sacrificing those things that don't show up there. For example, a brilliant performance will not reveal that the student has not learned how to read music, so why bother. Or assumptions are made per what adults want and will accept, and teaching goes toward this.

If teaching is toward goals, then those goals have to be defined to make sure student and teacher are on the same page. This is especially important for adult students. Your goal may be "I want the skills and knowledge for playing music well on the piano." - not as obvious as it should be. It could be "I want to improvise pop tunes, play jazz." in which case the teacher may create subgoals for you: solid handle on chords, modes, listening, and whatever else - which will get you there. If there are no goals, how can you get anywhere?

Two teachers can be giving the same piece. But one may be developing reading ability, building skills by observing his student and choosing that piece for that reason, and the other may simply be correcting wrong notes as they occur and maybe taking shortcuts like writing in finger numbers.

(2) Being able to define goals if you have no experience is tricky. Or suppose you are already in lessons, you're just being given pieces and there are no real goals - how do you articulate that or know what is happening? That's when we come into forums asking weird questions while trying to get our bearing. We're adults and expected to be articulate, but don't "speak the language".

(3) Supposing that you've defined goals and have a decent teacher. You still have to learn how to follow in a lesson, how to practice at home, what to aim for, when to ask questions, when not to, and how. At home you may aim to play the piece perfectly - maybe your teacher wants you to count well and doesn't want perfection. Chances are that because you are an intelligent adult, you're seen as more sophisticated than you are for this particular thing.

- beyond those general things, how you interact with a teacher will change as you advance. Adults have varied backgrounds and reasons for taking lessons. Our goals and understanding change as we advance because of what we learn and experience. There's a possible hiccup in this too, because kids actually change physically as they grow, and we don't.

To Brent:

In a sense, yes. It's the wrong kind of respect which puts the teacher on a pedestal. After all, they perform magic. Otoh, without having the lingo or the understanding we can actually put our foot in it and insult the poor man or woman because of how we end up wording our question. It is easy to ask about a technical thing, "Can you help me play this passage legato?" It is another if you feel something might be amiss - or missing - and you're trying to feel your way in.

I haven't really answered the question: I don't think I can. The only thing that has been clear to me is that somehow the idea of goals seems to be really important.

I had this attitude too at first but boy was I wrong to think so. Let me quote myself from the days I was just beginning:



What was I thinking?

This teacher turned out to be amazing and she prepared me for the music academy entrance exams in no time, she taught me theory and piano and she did a great job. She never for one second stopped treating me seriously. It was all in my head. I'm not saying there are no bad teachers but most of the time it's not as it seems and we need more patience.

Adult beginners should drop the attitude of I want it now, I am the customer and I know better, I pay you to give me a service, etc. Music is unlike anything else, so don't treat it like a bag of potatoes you bargain for at the local market.

My reaction may be odd. Maybe I just had a bad day.

But I wanted to GAG both of these people. The woman made me want to gag. What utter CRAP...

Exactly!

I am not convinced that adult beginners have that attitude. Maybe a few do, but not most.

I certainly haven't seen anything in this particular thread evincing the attitude Teodor describes. Music lesson are no "bag of potatoes" but then again they're not an off-the-rack One Size Fits All hat either.

Nothing in the world wrong with finding a teacher that suits your goals and learning style and it's certainly no insult to outline those goals in conversation with a (prospective) teacher and make a decision based on that discussion.

The real problem, as always, comes when people expect others to read their mind. If you are worried about or dissatisfied with the way your lessons are progressing, it's sheer foolishness to come online and ask for advice in dealing with a teacher when you haven't even mentioned your concerns to him or her. That's that part I don't get.

We should certainly let Teodor, himself, clarify his "sack of potatoes" post, or not, as he sees fit.

I interpreted his criticism to be against HIS OWN, self-proclaimed "wrong", attitide, from when he was first starting out with this teacher. (Of course, it reads not unlike many, MANY other, teacher critiques on this Forum.)

And let us not lose sight of what I think is THE MOST IMPORTANT part of his experience: While somewhat disappointed at the time, Teodor stuck with his teacher long enough for her to reveal her golden ability! (Or perhaps, long enough for him to see that ability in a clear light.)

Romantic that I am, I firmly believe that MOST music teachers have a rich storehouse of music and ability living inside them. The student needs to let the teacher open those doors when the time is "right".

I interpreted Teodor's post in the same way that you did LoPresti. I thought it was spot on in terms of its final message too.

My first teacher stopped teaching and I had to find a new one. It was very hard at first because my first teacher had allowed me to play some pretty tough (but incredibly musically gratifying) pieces (looking back on it, I was playing them pretty poorly). My second teacher felt that my first teacher had rushed things a bit. I had a lot of issues that she wanted me to work on and she thought that it would be easier to work on them with MUCH EASIER music (we are talking Bastien level 3 book with all of the kiddie pictures and silly titles). Fortunately, I trusted her and followed along with her program (I recall leaving lessons many a night feeling as though I were moving backwards). After a year with my teacher, I see her for the true gem that she is. My reading has improved, I am no longer 100% dependent upon looking at my hands when I play, and I am playing pieces that I find rewarding (for the most part, she has still assigned a clunker or two, but I play them).

The final sentence of your post sums it up nicely. As students, we need to recognize that our teachers might have a better sense of our pianistic development and what kind of feedback would be most useful at any particular stage than we do!

This is likely a misrepresentation. And I don't think that music teachers are so special that they warrant a kind of blind trust. Like any dyadic relationship, there are a host of variables involved. Not all teachers and students are a good match, so it is entirely OK to have a healthy dose of skepticism when finding or working with a teacher. Of course, I agree that there is a quick-fix mentality in our society, though "impatience" is not the only explanation for such a widespread phenomenon.

But part of the problem is that many students have no way of knowing whether the teacher deserves the trust they are required to give. In your situation it turned out great. But what if it turns out that a teacher really is not a good fit for the student? How long should they continue with the teacher in order to determine that? Six months? A year? Five years?

Wouldn't it be so much easier if students who have doubts about their teacher's approach would just ask what the plan is behind it. If they don't understand why they are being given certain assignments, or don't see the point of an exercise, or don't feel like they are learning anything from a piece, the teacher should be able and happy to explain why they are doing things the way they are. That can help the student decide whether they trust that teacher and want to invest the time it takes to follow their plan.

Of course, if we put teachers "on a pedestal", it's much more difficult to have those kinds of conversations.

I did think that Teodor was thinking mainly of his own story, and should have made that thought clear. Sorry about that, Teo. At the same time, I remember how timid I was when I started lessons and how ready to feel I was doing something wrong. It is ok to ask dumb questions or have silly worries, and sometimes those worries can even lead to something that needs clearing up. Don't be shy to ask them.

So far one scenario has been proposed primarily. In it, an older student is impatient for fast visible results and progress. He may also try to impose what pieces he learns and how he's taught. Ok, that's real and does happen.

But it also happens that a student is ready to do the work and is given random pieces with no thought behind it, no real feedback or guidance. Or that the teaching caters toward common wishes of moving fast while sacrificing what's needed, each time with the student not knowing what is happening - and other scenarios. And all too common reaction is to feel guilty for a sense of unease, and "untalented" for lack of progress. Look up "transfer student" in this site. That is why it is ok to ask dumb questions, go off on wrong tangents while finding your way. Eventually it can lead to good communication and new pathways, including with the present teacher if as is common it's a misunderstanding of goals.

Well, Lain, I am certain we are destined to continue thinking differently about the subject, and probably because of our past experiences.

Obviously, not all student/teacher pairings are ideal. Some, I am sure, are a terrible match, and need to be changed. But on this Forum, I am reading a variety of juvenile complaints, not dealing with fundamental teacher/student issues, but trivial details. Many are in the form of second-guessing the teacher's recommendations or methods.

In that on-going, one-to-one relationship we are discussing, your "host of variables" is absolutely there; but there is also a common constant: The teacher is an expert, and the student is not. Until the student becomes an expert, there is learning to be done.

Incidentally, thanks for our Word-of-the-Day!
Ed

Years (many years!) ago, I had a view from the other side of this table. I was never reluctant to discuss my rationale for choosing a piece on which to work, or why I assigned a particular exercise for practice, or how come I was recommending a particular artist for careful listing. This is all part of the teaching. However, if any of those discussions turned into serious questioning, with overtones of doubt, I typically avoided any further answers, because they then became justifications. I let my students draw their own conclusions about the effectiveness of what we were doing -- the ultimate justification.

Asking questions is fine, but your “trust” of your teacher should be based upon results, not upon the answers to a few questions, the rationale of which the beginner probably does not understand anyway.

Ed

Mr. KeyString,

Taking “poetic license”, I have distilled a couple of your posts here into a single listing above, holding (for me) your most salient points on setting goals. I am a big believer in having a “direction” when working on music, and your sage advice on setting student/teacher goals plots that direction.

However, almost immediately, we have another potential problem: Unless the student is somewhat advanced, it will be the responsibility of the teacher to select material that will fulfill the goals we just set. It will be that teacher’s job to say, “You need more work on scales.”, or “I wouldn’t revert to such easy pieces for sight reading.” Isn’t it still the providence of the teacher to advise, “I know (your goal) was to perform this on Saturday, but the piece is simply not ready.”?

So, while we might have an agreed-upon set of goals, it is still the responsibility of the teacher to guide the activities, and evaluate the progress. Unless I am missing something, this STILL requires a high level of faith on the part of the student that the teacher is acting in their interest.

Additional thoughts?

Ed

Ed, before I answer in another spate of verbosity, I am thinking that perhaps we may be missing each other in the type of "goals" I was trying to address under that word. This is contained in the (unfortunately largish) posts I wrote before, and it is linked to the types of goals that might be wrongly assumed and then taught toward. Would you mind having a look and/or mentioning what you understand under the word? It is crucial to this conversation. I suspect we have missed each other simply from the fact that you have written of a "goal" to perform a piece on a given date.

We have corresponded enough that I do not believe we are very far apart in our meaning of musical goals.

Clearly, music is ripe with live performance deadlines, and those are sort of externally imposed goals. I probably should not have even included that as one in my examples above.

But we are discussing early students here, and their goals are going to be more like
"I would like to play simple Chopin pieces."
"I would like to be able to hear a song on the radio (do they still have radios?), and play it on the piano."
"I would like to get through these baby songs, and start real pieces".
"I would like to be able to construct basic chords in real-time".
"I would like to be able to play a simple song the first time I see it."
And maybe even, "I would like to play a couple of Christmas Carols before January is over."

As you well know, these translate into various activities and musical materials that will be needed. And I am certain you know where I am headed from there . . . . .
Ed

Adults learn differently than children. Children are at a stage of learning where acquiring discipline and obedience are perhaps as important as learning a new instrument. Your expert/novice model fits perfectly here.

However, it breaks down if the novice is an adult, and there is no longer a clear dominant/subordinate relationship. In many cases, the student may be older than the teacher. Or, the student may be an expert in another field. All of this is to say that the student, owing to age and experience, has every right to question the type of learning he or she is receiving. And I will argue that the adult does not have to possess a substantial music knowledge base to question his or her teacher. For instance, we don't need to know that Mozart intended a certain passage to be played staccato in order to spot a teacher who is "expert" at music but also condescending, inconsiderate, charges too much, has trouble communicating his or her ideas, or in reality musically incompetent (consider concertgoers and music critics).

Even teachers are not infallible when it comes to selecting music repertoire. Plus, there are countless resources on the Internet such as this forum to get a second-opinion on what a teacher suggests.

So, what you call "second-guessing", I see it as adults being critical of their time and money. And what you call "juvenile complaints", I consider evidence of adults actually processing and interacting with what they are being taught, instead of being spoon-fed like a child.

I find this view more liberating, and it certainly is colored by my own experiences. Having learned both as a child and an adult, I find my lessons now much more enjoyable. Why? Because I can challenge my teacher, ask for second opinions, and set my own goals and expectations. I am not bound to the opinion of an "expert" whose musical percepts are likely not inclusive of my own experiences and learning in other fields; music can be interdisciplinary. Music is also deeply personal; I am an expert in my own right because of the way in which I interpret and experience music. That said, I still keep my mouth shut most of the time, because my teacher happens to be incredibly knowledgeable and considerate of my learning goals.

Great post, Lain! I wasn't capable of the kind of behavior you describe you are with your teacher when I tried lessons as an adult 15 years ago--still felt like that little kid with that teacher who was "condescending, inconsiderate, charged too much, had trouble communicating his ideas...", yet still expecting to be told what to do and anxious about not being able to do it right. I might try private lessons one more time just to see if it would now be possible to experience something like what you describe.

Well said, indeed!!!!

Yes I was merely talking about my own initial attitude.

Going on with the goals theme:

In order to be able to do anything, a student has to learn how to physically play the instrument, which means basic technical things like how to sit, move, get control of touch, timing etc. There is the ability to read notes, possibly produce chords and notes by ear, and hopefully some understanding of the workings of music - and be able to use all these things.

It is possible that a student is aware of this and his stated goal may be "piano skills and knowledge". Or the goal might be "To play pieces x, y & z". Hopefully the teacher will want to form those foundations in his student in either case. So you could say that it doesn't matter if a student only aims for favorite pieces. But we cannot assume that the teacher will do these things, or even teach well. It is important for us to have some understanding and not just walk in hoping it will go as it should. There are too many pitfalls in the "teaching adults" world. So even where there is your proposed "I would like to be able to play a simple song the first time I see it." it should include "and get the skills I'll need to get there."

You have written:

Such wishes are even assumed when they are not stated. A few years ago the ABF did two surveys. The kinds of wishes we (incl. early students) stated here went beyond the type of things in your examples.

In any case, this is not the kind of goal that I meant initially.

As you wrote:

But will this be given?

I'm closer to Lain here. I've taught a whole lot of adults several different subjects at the novice/beginner level. The ones I enjoy the most, and in fact the majority of students, are the ones that ask questions and bring their life experiences to bear on their learning. They can take their experiences ski racing or rock climbing and apply them to learning piano - or math, for that matter. I may know a whole lot more math than they do, or piano, but I don't know everything about their learning, and sometimes they approach math or piano in a way that *I* learn from. I love it. The "I'm the expert, you're the ignorant one" doesn't factor into it. The person I learned most from when I was rock-climbing was distinctly an expert. His teaching was distinctly collaborative and information-sharing, not "I'm the expert and you can be the subordinate one." It's a different attitude. It's much what I prefer.

To me, it seems obvious that the ABF is going to get more original posts with questions about teachers than original posts about student/teacher relationships from people who don't have questions about their teachers. So yes, the percentage of those with questions is bigger. It also, as I said earlier, seems to me that what people are doing is gathering information. "Hey, I'm new at piano lessons - is this normal? Are there other models?" It makes sense to me And often there *are* different models. Some of them work for one person, and some for another. I'm not the right teacher for everyone, either, tho usually just about everybody can learn *something* from me. And I from them.

As for me being someone who is already playing, as LoPresti characterized me from an earlier post, well, I only had two years of piano, in my early teens, and believe me I wasn't making music when I was done I certainly had finger dexterity, and I could translate sheet music into sounds from the piano. And that was it. I had a lot to learn.

And 35 years later, after not playing that while, I've learned all that I've learned without formal lessons. I've learned from mandolin players. I've learned from dance callers. I've learned from sinking-or-swimming in jam sessions and having someone whisper "the B part is in Dm". I've learned from my bass-playing brother. I for sure haven't learned from playing classical music or playing lots of scales

Would that process work for everyone? Of course not. And I don't advocate everyone doing it. It's a different model, and it's worked for me. But as I said earlier, I have no problem at all with people asking about the way their current model is working. I have no problem with them asking about it here before they ask their teacher about it, if they have a teacher As I say, it just seems like information-gathering to me. Like my friend with brain cancer that searches the internet in addition to asking their radiologist. I'm all for it if that helps them.

That's *my* experience. Other's experience is different. But I'm closer to Lain and Starr Keys in the way I see the posts than I am to LoPresti. Not that anyone couldn't tell that

Cathy

Lain, I am not certain how children got thrown into this mix. In that ADULT student/teacher relationship, of which everyone else is writing here, there is, by definition, a musical expert, and someone who is not. If that is not the case, then we have a different sort of relationship.

I might have a high level of expertise in aerodynamics, but that does not qualify me to select, or even discuss, Alfred’s over Faber.

Ed

I threw it in there, because what you are saying seems more appropriate for children than adults.



I wonder if there can be some flexibility here? The kind of reasoning and critical thinking skills you acquire in one field is certainly transferable to other fields. Can I not consult someone else's expertise on this forum and ask about Alfred versus Faber? Or, if I find the music tremendously dull, is it not appropriate to ask if there might be another set of exercises that are of equal import but with a different, perhaps more jaunty, style to my liking? I also wrote, earlier:



Even concertgoers and music critics, who are not experts of the art they are observing, have a right to voice their opinions. Why not students? (This is an analogy, of course, so I am not condoning a lack of deference towards one's teacher.)

This thread is so uptight, serious, judgmental and curmudgeon like it is hard to believe it has anything at all to do with something as joyful as the piano and music. Just my ever so uneducated, neophyte, proletariat point of view.

Thanks for illustrating my point!

Yep. All we need is someone complaining about use of "song vs. piece" and it would be complete.

I suspect it boils down to a few too many teachers not explaining "what, why, and how" to their students added to a few too many students expecting instant gratification.

Suggested sound track for the thread: Wagner with a touch of Chopin.

Well, it appears we may have beaten this poor subject to death! If nothing else good comes out of this, perhaps a few individuals will read the thread a bit, and consider, before posting.

Speriamo di si.
Ed

It hasn't even started.

Remaining in silence and confusion is not a good idea. Some of us have lost years by doing just that. That is not to say that unthinking knee-jerk reactions are a good thing. But in the past, all the dumb things I wondered about, I wish I had written more of them while I was still lost.

Baggage.

So much baggage.

Its a wonder we ever learn anything.

This, in fact, is my starting point. Lessons require the right efforts of both student and teacher and it works in synergy. But we have to look at the teacher part first, because it starts with his guidance.

Most good and experienced teachers can tell you of transfer students and the damage they have to undo from poor teaching. A portion of this will be due to the student not having followed instructions. But there are also obvious things like a student who can't read notes after 2 years, and finger numbers written in all the music over all the notes always.

Some causes of teacher-related problems:
a) incompetence in understanding piano technique, or music, or how to teach, separately or in combination
b) inability to communicate with this particular student ("good fit" or what I call the sock syndrome )
c) teaching toward what is desired / the market wants, while ignoring what is needed (skills etc.)
d) believing adults are hobbyists who want to play around rather than learn, and teaching that way

In cases b, c, d, the student needs to be informed, to have some idea of the goals behind the goals so to say - and then communicate these to the teacher. You are assuming a skilled teacher who will work toward what is needed. If that always happened, things would be simple. First the thing you are assuming has to be there. THEN we can go on to the other things.

In these scenarios, either the expertise doesn't exist, or because of assumed goals, it is not being used as it could be. I think you'll agree that if any of this is going on, it needs to be addressed. A student can only follow what is being taught.

It is a difficult proposition. For example, we may think someone is a good teacher because his students "advance fast" and not know what has been left out. The one with kids who play brilliantly in recitals may focus on three pieces a year, heavily choreographed. Will you know what to look for?

Still mostly on the first idea:

This is absolutely true. But it shouldn't be about that either. However, you might be aware of what types of goals the "adult methods" address, and which the "children's" address. If your teacher knows your mindset, then the choice will be made accordingly unless it is a knee jerk reaction to use a book labeled "adult" for adults. To me it comes down to (real) goals. After that the choice is generally teacher's according to his expertise as you say. (The first element at the start of this post being as it should be.)

I answered half of your question, and not even the part that you tried to emphasize.

... and in the same vein, the the examples of goals such as learning to play easy Chopin, for which you said the teacher then will choose activities to eventually make this possible.

We're assuming a decent teacher who's on top of things.

My premise was a student who knows that playing easy Chopin implies prior goals of piano playing skills, and these become the main goal. But even if not, if Chopin-type goals are defined, then the teacher may explain that other things will be done in order to get the skills that will lead to things such as the Chopin.


I had not thought of choice of material as being a problem. Well yes, if there are studies, the teacher has to find material to study. I'm not sure what else to say about that.

I think "how" is of greater concern than "what". In and of themselves, scales, Hanon, a Gavotte, don't teach. What are you as a teacher doing with them?

Have you shown me how to work on scales? Do I know what to focus on? If you want more even tone, is there something I should be doing differently to get there? If I simply "work on scales" any which way, it might be better not to touch them.


If this performance was planned under your guidance, why is it not ready? Did I fail to follow the steps you outlined / to practice? Do I know how to prepare a piece? Do I know how to practice? To me these are the more important questions.

Some of the questions that you highlighted in your OP potentially go toward the "how". The teacher who "never says anything" in lessons may only be listening for wrong notes. We don't want to go home and do the next piece and the next and the next. We want to know what to focus on, how to practice. The question of theory came up in your OP - so how does this get approached, and does it get approached?

Do we know how to practice and what to focus on? Do we know how to ask questions and which questions are ok to ask? Do we know that mistakes are ok and expected?

I'm getting a bit lost in this. I see both guidance and some kind of fluid dialog. I also think that there has to be a huge portion of "how" in the "what".

Thoughts?

I'm generally unhappy about what I wrote the 2nd time because it seems to miss the boat. (sigh)

There's another aspect. As beginners we need to learn fundamental things such as how to sit and move at the instrument, how to read notes, recognize chords and intervals etc. Later on it moves to interpretation of music, higher things in musicianship etc. Each of these takes a different kind of teacher. If you go to a superb performer who loves to help you develop a piece of music to perfection, but he does not understand how to develop the STUDENT so that the student has the tools, it will be an exercise in frustration.

I am going to jump back in here for one more round, because Mr. KeyString raises several points that we have not yet discussed. Further, I had no idea that there were so many poor, or lax private “teachers” from which to choose, and that is a very real problem.

So, perhaps a few words about expectations. I am EXPECTING a (piano) teacher to be a musical AND educational professional; not just someone who has room in their home for a piano, a cat, and a student or two. Before lessons ever begin, I am expecting the teacher to evaluate the student: “Is this potential student someone I can help musically?” If that evaluation comes back, “No”, then I am expecting the teacher to refer that potential student to someone else, or to suggest gardening, if that is more appropriate. During this evaluation of the student, the teacher is envisioning “goals” for this person, either discussed or implied, and maybe already the outline of a plan of study, and certainly HOW best to teach this student. In the real world, does the teacher’s workload and current income influence the decision? I am certain it does, but hopefully those are secondary considerations. Only if the teacher decides to accept the student, then there is a discussion of fees, lesson times, mechanical details.

This sounds too idealistic and fairy-tale-like? ALL the private music teachers that I know go through this process. It is important to note that the teacher (hopefully) has not clouded up the decision with a bunch of “What ifs . . . . . . . . . .” IS THIS SOMEONE I CAN HELP MUSICALLY? DO I WANT TO? The rest is mere detail. And that key question needs to be posed again and again throughout the course of this teacher/student relationship.

Here I believe it is important to realize that the good teacher EXPECTS to be in charge of, and responsible for, the development of that student. I’ll return to this idea in a moment.

What about our beginning student? With due consideration for individual differences, I am EXPECTING a serious adult student to have a firm grasp on what is involved in learning to play a musical instrument, including a realistic vision of how long such an endeavor could take, what sort of daily effort will be required, and a legitimate devotion to that time and effort. I am expecting the adult student to have already developed preferences for musical styles, and perhaps even some goals involving what he/she would like to achieve. I expect an adult student to do their diligence, and seek out a teacher who is a proponent of the student’s preferred musical style(s). I am expecting our beginning student to articulate any personal preferences in musical styles, or goals, before lessons actually start; perhaps solicited by the teacher.

One final thought about selecting a teacher: Avoid the view from the cheap seats.

With a student and a teacher who have decided to work together, here are some further expectations: I am EXPECTING this teacher to be, above all, musical, and to have a burning desire to impart musicality to the student. I already mentioned that a good teacher is expecting to be in charge AND responsible – maybe at first with the student’s daily practice (work) routine, and from the perspective of assignment and guidance, and particularly the evaluation of that work. The competent teacher SHOULD ask for certain scales, specific method books, repertoire, finger exercises, any and all rudiments, certain aspects of theory. Personally, I would not want any teacher who was not telling me how to spend my practice time - that is precisely what I am paying for.

As a teacher, I never minded discussing my rationale for choosing a piece on which to work, or why I assigned a particular exercise for practice, or how these fit in with the student’s goals. However, if any of those discussions turned into serious questioning, with overtones of doubt, I typically avoided any further answers, or justifications. I let my student draw his/her own conclusions about the effectiveness of what we were doing -- the ultimate justification.

And now as the student, I EXPECT open and honest feedback about results and progress from my teacher. I do not expect, nor do I want, sugar-coating on less-than-pleasant news. I expect recommendations on how to improve, if that is indicated; and I expect a recommendation to spend more time gardening, if that is indicated.

As the student, I am expecting results. If I do not already realize it, it will soon become apparent that IT IS I who performs the assigned work to get the results.

(TEACHER’S GUIDANCE) + (STUDENT’S WORK) = RESULTS

Time passes . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

If the teacher’s expectations are not being met, I want the good teacher to initiate that conversation. Equally, if the RESULTS (as opposed to trivial little details) are not to the student’s liking, it is the responsibility of that student to broach the subject. Such conversations typically result in an adjustment of methods, or in a change in what is reasonably expected, or in a parting of ways. Obviously, not every teacher/student pairing is ideal. Obviously, wonderful students "out-grow" their teachers.

And, as much as this Forum seems to ignore the fact, not everyone is equipped to be a piano player .

Thank you for taking the time to slog through all that and write your thoughts, Ed. Hopefully the dialogue can go on for a bit.

What you have described is ideal, but it is not reality, and reality is what we have to deal with. Not all of it is "poor quality teachers" per se - I have spent enough time describing the complications. Bottom line is that since things are as they are, an adult student wanting to take lessons for the first time should educate himself before contacting a teacher, because the kind of guidance you expect will not necessarily be there. Additionally, since adult students have a bad reputation, you may not access that teacher, or you may get a dummied down version of his teaching. You may think that is the real thing and wonder why you get stuck at a certain point, or why it seems to lack direction.

Because all this is going on, we have to be proactive. Educate yourself, initiate the discussion of goals if the teacher doesn't do so, etc.

Yes, agreed wholeheartedly. But if that part is skewed because of what I described, the results get wonky. It starts with the definition of goals, because that is what governs the teacher's guidance, and continues to learning how to work with a teacher and how to practice at home, which constitutes the "student's work" part.

A couple of thoughts:

How do you assess potential of someone who has never played a note and is approaching music for the first time? In fact, would you evaluate a 5 year old who has never had lessons in that way? Or do you start teaching and see what develops?

At least one PW teacher has written that he does so. There is a meeting once or twice a year with student (parents, if young) where progress, goals, mutual feedback are plotted. Someone who has never had lessons will grow and change the a lot, so this seems very important.

On a more superficial level I agree: in the sense of daily practice a minimum of 30 min./day, following instructions. The student will not know what it is like to fail at counting the 3 with playing in synch, that this childish activity is more important than an emotional rendering of WhatsThatPiece - if you mean the bare essentials of daily practice of assignments, yes.


Speaking personally, I disagree with this part except very generally if someone wants to play jazz/improvisation because of the different kinds of skills involved. The very FIRST thing we need are basic skills rather than a genre of music. That is my focus as a student, and I want it to be my teacher's focus.

There are other reasons: My present perception of music as an amateur is limited by what I can perceive. I want to be exposed to a variety of types of music as taught by a full musician. THEN I can choose genre. Beginners in any subject don't specialize.

The other reason is that I want my teacher to choose the music that will teach me what I need to learn. From Bach and Baroque you get accuracy of timing, crispness, an interweaving of voices. Romantic music requires a different touch, has unusual chords and harmonies. In the last half year working with a teacher I have played Bach, Chopin, presently Debussy, as well as a theme song of a popular music that teens like, and something jazzy. In one I had to work on being free with rubato and making a few repetitive figures be fresh and new each time, the Debussy is introducing me to whole tones, augmented, and traveling all over the keyboard in an unusual (to me) way.

I would say that I am experiencing these genres of music for the first time, especially as a musician. They are affecting my technique and also my ear. How can I choose a specialization from the very beginning?


Agreed. Even a teacher who wants to teach through more free choices, and maybe teach technique and theory from within pieces themselves, should have a major input.

I also find it exceedingly important to be observed and guided in how I do things physically, and how I might be approaching my practising at home. A scale or study is useless otherwise. This includes allowing independent thinking, trial and error, rather than too much prescription - what is called "intelligent practice" - with feedback.

Generally we are probably on the same page.

We are not discussing children, and I have no personal experience with students of that age. With the adult beginner, in most cases the teacher can glean whatever he/she needs to know (to get started) from a simple conversation:
“Why do you want to learn to play piano?”
“Do you play any other musical instruments?”
“What sort of music do you like to listen to?”
“Are you able to devote some time each day to practice?”
“How did you hear about me?”
Others . . . . .

Some teachers I know also like to conduct an informal “ear screening”, to determine if the potential student has innate ability to distinguish BY EAR between higher and lower pitches, faster and slower tempi, louder and softer attacks, staccato and legato sounds.

Obviously, if the student has been playing for a while, then the teacher is going to evaluate in more detail.

Either way, at this point, the competent teacher has enough information to answer the all-important question, “Is this potential student someone I can help musically? Do I want to?" And, at that point, even with the most elaborate plan of attack, with the best thought-out goals, having a beautiful, over-arching lesson plan, with a grand vision of how this student will progress, IN EVERY SINGLE CASE, the teacher must simply “start teaching and see what develops”.

I disagree. In some sense we are like children, and we need to learn the same things that children need to learn. Part of the reason for failures in lessons is when those lessons start off too sophisticated, without having that in mind. In regards to your questions, I consider myself a good student and have been told that I am, but when I took my first lessons I could not have articulated a sensible answer.
- Why do I want to learn to play the instrument? I just did. I remember looking at the violin on the orchestra chart, and thinking that this instrument has an infinite range of textures and intonations. I don't know if I could have put that into words. Had I tried, would it have been understood? I can clearly remember the helplessness and frustration when I was a student of not being able to put things into words. I see this all the time in the forum. Some of the things that bother you are actually struggles. We end up saying things that are beside the point in order to get at the point, and if you take us literally you will miss the boat.

I contend that the way to know a student's potential is to work with that student for a period of time. You may have to whittle away initial misperceptions as you go on in the first weeks. It is quite similar to a small child.


Some teachers I know also like to conduct an informal “ear screening”, to determine if the potential student has innate ability to distinguish BY EAR between higher and lower pitches, faster and slower tempi, louder and softer attacks, staccato and legato sounds.

Obviously, if the student has been playing for a while, then the teacher is going to evaluate in more detail.

Either way, at this point, the competent teacher has enough information to answer the all-important question, “Is this potential student someone I can help musically? Do I want to?" And, at that point, even with the most elaborate plan of attack, with the best thought-out goals, having a beautiful, over-arching lesson plan, with a grand vision of how this student will progress, IN EVERY SINGLE CASE, the teacher must simply “start teaching and see what develops”.

Ok, I see this, but with a caution since these are the things that the teacher develops in a student. If you get students at the next level up from absolute beginner, then someone else has already done this part.

Yes.

Agreed.

Well, if basic communication skills are not there, either on the part of the student, OR from the teacher, then ALL progress is going to be painfully slow, if progress there is. I am certain I covered that:




I agree completely - getting a grasp of a student’s actual potential requires regular, on-going personal contact. However, simply deciding whether or not to “take on” this potential student can be determined in a much simpler manner.

Ed

Really? I take the view that anyone with fingers, ears, and a brain is "equipped". Maybe not to be a professional piano player, but that isn't everyone's goal on this forum. And if you are only talking about development of high-level piano players, maybe this discussion doesn't belong in the ABF forum.

I'm with MaryBee here. I certainly know dancers that someone with an attitude like LoPresti's would have decided, I suspect, might as well go garden But they've become dancers any way. Good for them. I can think of one that now dances 3 or 4 times a week, from swing to Scottish country to contras. Is he a professional dancer? Not by a long shot. I'm not even sure that after all this time he's as good as I was when I first started and wasn't practising But he can hold his own at the recreational level at which he dances, and I dance with him a couple of times a month. I don't think it's any different for piano players.

If he were a piano student, are there some piano teachers for whom he would not be a good fit? I'm sure there are, for whatever reason they might not want to teach him.

Does it mean he'd be better off gardening instead of playing piano? Not that I can tell.

Are there novice dancers and novice piano players who might eventually self-select out of either? Yes, there are. But it's their decision. LoPresti can self-select out of teaching them, but LoPresti can't, IMNSHO, select for them whether they continue to play piano. Only they can.

So here in the ABF we don't generally make that judgment

Perhaps if LoPresti is so turned off by their questions he can self-select out of responding to them

I'd certainly respect that choice.

Cathy

Fair enough.

I'm a teacher, and I TOTALLY agree with you. So in spite of teaching I must be equally uneducated. Because in MY world "adults" have goals that continually change. If I got treated, as a student, the way I hear teachers suggesting adults should be judged/treated, I would quit before even getting started.

As a teacher I believe that at least half the reason why students fail is because of us, the teachers...

Although I care about the other things that have been mentioned, this part isn't quite finished for me.

This comes to the heart of what I've been trying to say. I would go so far as to say that instead of assuming that we understand what the other party is saying, we should assume that we will miss each other in the beginning. The sophistication that we adults have in comparison to kids will mask that we are in unfamiliar territory, may not have the lingo. There has to be an awareness of this. If you start off with this awareness, and make a two-sided effort then it has a greater chance.

Yes, you did write previously:

but I suspect that you are a couple of steps beyond what I'm talking about. Otherwise I agree. I can't explain it better. But it's embedded on those two main issues that I have tried to address. And it comes down to what you have just concluded above.