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#1841315 - 02/09/12 02:43 PM Re: Articulation in Bach's Prelude and Fugue dm (book 1) [Re: jnod]
Steve Chandler Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/18/05
Posts: 2024
Loc: Urbandale, Iowa
Originally Posted By: jnod
Originally Posted By: wr

But the WTC wasn't written for any particular instrument, just for the generic concept of "keyboard". Personally, I think many, maybe most, sound best on the organ.



Really? This is so surprising to me that I find it almost to impossible to believe! Is this the concensus out there in keyboardland?

Justin,

Which statement do you find hard to believe? that the WTC was composed for any keyboard or that one person thinks it sounds best on the organ. WR did say, "Personally, I think many, maybe most, sound best on the organ," but that obviously is his opinion. FWIW, I agree, many of them do sound best on the organ, I don't necessarily go with "most." I've played the Eb prelude from book 1 on an organ and it worked quite well.

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#1841448 - 02/09/12 06:26 PM Re: Articulation in Bach's Prelude and Fugue dm (book 1) [Re: Jolteon]
stores Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 5782
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: Jolteon
I have the ABRSM Edition edited by Richard Jones and commentaries by Tovey. (only have WTC1) I'm no expert on the different editions, but this one seems good to me. It has fingerings that are quite good (they work for me) and it seems like it's fairly well researched and stuff. It gives suggestions for ornamentation and also for tempo and approaches to performance (as written by Tovey), and there's no expression markings or anything on the scores. I would certainly recommend it.


I can't say that I've ever seen this edition. It's not the original Tovey, which Sir Donald edited himself. It is rather old and probably not available at all any longer. It is marked, from the press:

Two Book
25/- paper covers
35/- cloth boards

Correct me, if I'm mistaken but the marking are those of the shilling, yes?
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


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#1841455 - 02/09/12 06:31 PM Re: Articulation in Bach's Prelude and Fugue dm (book 1) [Re: jnod]
stores Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 5782
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: jnod
Originally Posted By: wr

But the WTC wasn't written for any particular instrument, just for the generic concept of "keyboard". Personally, I think many, maybe most, sound best on the organ.



Really? This is so surprising to me that I find it almost to impossible to believe! Is this the concensus out there in keyboardland?


wr, is quite right, jnod. As I've just written elsewhere here, the WTC was not written exclusively AT the harpsichord and as wr states (again correctly) it is not written FOR any particular instrument (as is much of Bach's keyboard oeuvre).
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


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#1841470 - 02/09/12 06:44 PM Re: Articulation in Bach's Prelude and Fugue dm (book 1) [Re: stores]
currawong Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5221
Loc: Down Under
Originally Posted By: stores
I can't say that I've ever seen this edition. It's not the original Tovey, which Sir Donald edited himself. It is rather old and probably not available at all any longer. It is marked, from the press:

Two Book
25/- paper covers
35/- cloth boards

Correct me, if I'm mistaken but the marking are those of the shilling, yes?
I have an earlier ABRSM edition (books I and II), "edited by Donald Francis Tovey, Fingered by Harold Samuel" (1924). It looks like a 1970's reprint to me (especially considering the price tag), but 1924 is the only date. I didn't buy it - it came to me in a pile of scores from a fellow teacher who died.

And yes, /- is shillings. Also written as 25s.
_________________________
Du holde Kunst...

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#1841474 - 02/09/12 06:47 PM Re: Articulation in Bach's Prelude and Fugue dm (book 1) [Re: currawong]
stores Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 5782
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: currawong
Originally Posted By: stores
I can't say that I've ever seen this edition. It's not the original Tovey, which Sir Donald edited himself. It is rather old and probably not available at all any longer. It is marked, from the press:

Two Book
25/- paper covers
35/- cloth boards

Correct me, if I'm mistaken but the marking are those of the shilling, yes?
I have an earlier ABRSM edition (books I and II), "edited by Donald Francis Tovey, Fingered by Harold Samuel" (1924). It looks like a 1970's reprint to me (especially considering the price tag), but 1924 is the only date. I didn't buy it - it came to me in a pile of scores from a fellow teacher who died.

And yes, /- is shillings. Also written as 25s.


That's the one. Mine is a 1951 reprint.
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


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#1841525 - 02/09/12 07:56 PM Re: Articulation in Bach's Prelude and Fugue dm (book 1) [Re: Dachshund]
Andromaque Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/08
Posts: 3534
Loc: New York
What about Breitkopf's Mugellini edition? My teacher gave it to me as a present but I have not looked through it much (yet).

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#1841751 - 02/10/12 08:19 AM Re: Articulation in Bach's Prelude and Fugue dm (book 1) [Re: Steve Chandler]
jnod Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/04/09
Posts: 762
Loc: Toronto
Originally Posted By: Steve Chandler
Originally Posted By: jnod
Originally Posted By: wr

But the WTC wasn't written for any particular instrument, just for the generic concept of "keyboard". Personally, I think many, maybe most, sound best on the organ.



Really? This is so surprising to me that I find it almost to impossible to believe! Is this the concensus out there in keyboardland?

Justin,

Which statement do you find hard to believe? that the WTC was composed for any keyboard or that one person thinks it sounds best on the organ. WR did say, "Personally, I think many, maybe most, sound best on the organ," but that obviously is his opinion. FWIW, I agree, many of them do sound best on the organ, I don't necessarily go with "most." I've played the Eb prelude from book 1 on an organ and it worked quite well.


I think I misread: the point is not that WTC was written for organ just that organ is one instrument on which it can be played. Yes?

For that matter I've heard the WTC I D minor P&F performed by a Jamaican steel drum orchestra. Sounded great!!
_________________________
Justin
-------
Bach English Suite #5
Scarlatti Sonata K141 . L422
Mozart Sonata K333
Schubert Impromptu opus 90 D899
Schubert Moment Musicaux opus 94 D780

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#1841766 - 02/10/12 09:01 AM Re: Articulation in Bach's Prelude and Fugue dm (book 1) [Re: Dachshund]
Varcon Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/15/04
Posts: 1896
Loc: Mount Vernon, Georgia 30445
We 'ancient ones' remember Bach on the Moog synthesizer. I believe it has been stated in some sources that Bach sounds good on practically every medium while other composers are not as transcribable (Chopin, for instance)and the keyboards works can be played on harpsichord, clavichord, organ, piano, etc., and as Bach gave very few, if any, phrasing, fingering, dynamic, one must go by the general Baroque indications--perhaps concertato style for some--and other prevailing stylistic performance practices of the time.

Breitkopf & Hartel publish the Bach Gesellschaft which seems to be the 'URTEXT' and there are no editorial markings--just the notes as transcribed from Bach's manuscripts. One might secure a copy of those for comparison to edited versions to ascertain accuracy of notation and then follow whatever editorial markings he/she chooses.

Ralph

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#1842317 - 02/11/12 01:07 AM Re: Articulation in Bach's Prelude and Fugue dm (book 1) [Re: jnod]
argerichfan Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 7472
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
Originally Posted By: jnod

I think I misread: the point is not that WTC was written for organ just that organ is one instrument on which it can be played. Yes?

No argument that Bach wrote the WTC without a specific instrument in mind, but IMO, NOT the organ. In my experience as an organist, very few of the fugues work well on the organ, and even less of the preludes (Eb minor could be an exception) make any sense at all on the organ. The C minor or the C# major preludes to name two examples?

Bach wrote a large amount of music specifically intended for the organ, and they could not possibly be played as written for any other instrument. OTH, the WTC is clearly conceived for two hands alone.

Interestingly, many of Bach's north German predecessors wrote music that could be played without pedals (some Lutheran churches at the time could not afford an organ with a full and separate pedal division), but the layout of the music is such that if the pedals were available, the music was easily adapted. I have several volumes of this music -some of it very fine- in my library.

Of course one could claim that Bach might have been happy for organists without pedals (or pedal technique) to play the fugues of his WTC on the organ, but their layout is so radically different from the fugues intended for organ.
_________________________
Jason

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#1842323 - 02/11/12 01:14 AM Re: Articulation in Bach's Prelude and Fugue dm (book 1) [Re: AZNpiano]
Dachshund Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/19/11
Posts: 45
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: AZNpiano

Are you doing this for Bach Festival?

Yes.. well I was, but today I hurt my wrist during P.E. at school, so I decided to withdraw from performing tomorrow. My hand should be better soon, but I think it'll be too sore to perform in the Bach Festival tomorrow.
I'll still be working on this piece once my hand heals though, because I'm going to play it for Certificate of Merit.

-Will
_________________________
I shall be telling this with a sigh
Somewhere ages and ages hence:
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I—
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.

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#1842329 - 02/11/12 01:24 AM Re: Articulation in Bach's Prelude and Fugue dm (book 1) [Re: jnod]
wr Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 5429
Originally Posted By: jnod


I think I misread: the point is not that WTC was written for organ just that organ is one instrument on which it can be played. Yes?



Yes.

I wonder, has anyone orchestrated all of them? It seems likely. I know that Mozart arranged some for strings. When I play through them, I often think about how various passages would sound in various orchestrations. Wind quintets come to mind a lot.

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#1842406 - 02/11/12 07:21 AM Re: Articulation in Bach's Prelude and Fugue dm (book 1) [Re: Varcon]
jnod Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/04/09
Posts: 762
Loc: Toronto
Originally Posted By: Varcon
We 'ancient ones' remember Bach on the Moog synthesizer.
Ralph


I still have my copy of "Switched-on-Bach" I and II! The jacket of the first volume was slightly chewed up by my late cat but otherwise it still sounds great in that weird 1970s way. I also have "Switched-off Bach" which was a collection of accoustic recordings of Carlos's renditions. Some nice stuff in there - Pablo Cassals, Glenn Gould etc....etc... again, greats of the 70s.
_________________________
Justin
-------
Bach English Suite #5
Scarlatti Sonata K141 . L422
Mozart Sonata K333
Schubert Impromptu opus 90 D899
Schubert Moment Musicaux opus 94 D780

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#1842473 - 02/11/12 09:59 AM Re: Articulation in Bach's Prelude and Fugue dm (book 1) [Re: Dachshund]
Peter K. Mose Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/06/12
Posts: 370
Loc: Toronto, Ontario
Originally Posted By: Dachshund
My hand should be better soon, but I think it'll be too sore to perform in the Bach Festival tomorrow.
-Will


Keep us posted on your Bach articulation journey, if you wish, Will. At least keep travelling.


Edited by Peter K. Mose (02/11/12 10:02 AM)

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