Six months ago, I started piano shopping. With the kind help of many of you, I’ve learned a lot. This posting lists a little of what you and several helpful dealers taught me. I hope it’s of use to someone still hunting. I wish I had read what follows before I started my search.

Two competing factors seek your hard-earned money: size and quality. Given any fixed budget, the higher the quality, the smaller the size you’ll be able to afford. With pianos, size counts significantly, as many of you have said. The right choice in this regard lies in your ear--not in anything written in this forum. At the end of my search, the top-end (K132) 52 inch Schimmel upright was to cost the same as a 5 foot 8 inch Yamaha C2 grand. The crystal-clear beautiful Schimmel tone was competing against the much larger sound board and longer strings of the Yamaha grand. Though they sounded very differently, it was not an easy call. Though I’m going with the Yamaha, I’m sure some of you would be happier making the opposite decision.

Shopping price pays off handsomely. This can be difficult. Most dealers won’t quote prices by phone. I was lucky. A cross-country move allowed me to stop at different dealers gathering price information, which saved me money. I also found that some of you folks know and will share in this forum what a particular piano has sold for in your market. I found your information helpful, too.

Positioning of an instrument dramatically affects sound. This complicates decision-making. A C2 grand in a corner of a smaller space sounded like twice the piano of a C2 grand in the middle of a big room (at two different dealerships). Few of us ever get to test drive our piano in our own homes before purchase. This part of the equation can make purchasing a real nail biter. If you’re lucky enough to hear the same model piano in different locations, take advantage of it. Doing so may broaden your perspective.

Larry Fine’s Piano Book (and his yearly updates dealing in part with pricing information, new models, etc.), is of great help.

The issue of digital versus acoustic plays out very differently in different ears. Read all you like, but in the end, consider what’s right for YOU. For example, arguably the top of the digital world, the Yamaha AvantGrand, sounds vaguely 90% like the spectacular 9-footer it is sampling. For some people, it’s crazy to not get one of these for $12-15K, given how close to that $100K sound it achieves. For me, the recording of a great piano (which is, after all, what you hear when you play an AG), was unacceptably synthetic and soul-less. The fact that it can be easily moved and needn’t be tuned did not begin to affect my decision, but these issues are understandably important to many people. In the end, only your ear counts.

Pianos don’t walk up stairs in a vertical position. They move with the angle of the stairs. This difference can deceive you into thinking a piano will fit through a space that it might not fit through. Before buying, make sure your piano will physically get into your dwelling. (Dealers will help with this.)

You can buy too much piano for a given space. Larry Fine’s rule of considering 10% of the perimeter of your room as the maximum size of the piano is probably a good one to follow.

Larry Fine’s discussion about how increased quality generally comes with decreased value is an astute observation in my view. A Bosendorfer may sound three times as good as one of the better Chinese pianos, but it will cost you ten times as much. This doesn’t mean you shouldn’t buy quality. It does mean that paying twice as much for a piano is unlikely to get you twice as much, but of course it will usually buy you something, and that something may be very important to you.

When at the dealership, play the pianos you’re considering as long as you can. Concentrate. After half an hour, things can sound very differently than they do after 10 minutes.

Once you’ve committed, don’t look back. Don’t ask others what they think of your decision. Stop all that reading about comparisons between piano X and piano Y. In the end, music is way more about your playing than the instrument you’re playing on.

My saga is far from over because I need a silent piano and the silent C2 will probably take 6 months to get made and shipped across the Pacific. Good luck in your hunt!

Nice analysis, JM. Thanks for posting it, and congratulations on your decision!

Very interesting, and well thought out observations.

Congratulations on you silent C2!!

Rick

Jive,

Congratulations on your new piano!
I think your post will help to guide the consumer in their search. Well done!

fingers

This reminds me of the adage for people buying bicycling components: "low weight, low price, strength... pick two"

For pianos, it's: "size, high quality, low price... pick two".

Yep - "(get it) Fast, Cheap, Good". You can have any two.

Congratulations on your C2! Now for the wait (again...)

All I have to say is thank God for JM. If it weren't for his posts I would have wound up with a used flood damaged Yamaha U3 that was 18 years old. I have enjoyed the dialog and the passion involved for the quest. I would be buying a C2 after playing one Friday if it weren't for the size of my town house rooms! Thank You JM!

Very good conclusion JM.

Larry Fine's book was an invaluable resource for me too, even if some dealers don't like it.

JM,
Excellent observations and congratulations on your new C2! I also fell in love with the crystal-clear beautiful Schimmel tone from a Schimmel Konzert 213. Fortunately, for my marriage and savings, it wouldn't fit.

Please post pictures of your new piano when it's delivered. Congratulations!

Great write-up and congrats on your new piano! At the risk of sounding like a complete idiot -- what's a "silent piano"...sorry for the dumb question, but have seen this term before and have no clue.

I really don't understand the sizing of the piano to the room? Don't bigger pianos generally sound better regardless of the size of the room?

Nothing whatsoever wrong with a C2 ... the C series Yamaha's are in fact the staple of the modern piano industry.

There's nothing dumb about the question. A "Silent Piano" is Yamaha's term for an acoustic piano that, with the flip of a switch, puts a padded bar between hammers and strings, thus preventing the strings from being struck, leaving the piano "silent" except for the thump of the hammers hitting the padded bar. Under each key is a sensor attached to the other components of a digital piano. "Silent Pianos" have no speakers (if you want sound, you listen to the real piano) but they DO have outlets for headphones. Thus, with the acoustic piano shut off and the headphones plugged in, you can play at night, in the morning, etc. You can also practice the same 4 measures over and over and over till you get it right without driving other people crazy.

They are quite popular in Europe, the UK, Japan, and to some extent Manhattan. They are rare through most of America, where people usually have enough space to have both an acoustic piano and a digital, if needed for headphone use. People only buy a Silent Piano if they need both but simply do not have the space for both.

Yamaha is the leader in this field, and is said to have the best digital sound through headphones. Schimmel and a few other companies also offer a "silent piano." I've heard (but cannot confirm) that Schimmel uses the Yamaha system.

Any piano can be converted into a "silent piano" with aftermarket technology from companies like "PianoDisk." Some people on this forum have advised that it may be safer to buy a factory-installed system (e.g. from Yamaha) than to add an after-market system. It appears, however, that this concern is based more on fear of the unknown than it is based on known problems that have developed from after-market silent piano additions.

Silent Piano technology typically adds vaguely $3,000 to the cost of a new piano. Adding after-market technology costs less.

By the way, with fancy headphones the Yamaha digital component of the Silent Piano sounds amazingly good, at least to my fussy ear.

Make sense?

No!

When a 9 footer is placed in a small to medium sized room, it gets boomy and unpleasant sounding. In that case, spending more (on a bigger piano) literally buys you less!

I just received great news. The dealer called to say "there is one Silent C2 available for sale in the U.S. so we don't need to order from Japan and we'll have your piano in a few weeks. Once in Portland, we'll want a week to tune, retune, regulate, check details, etc., and then you'll have it No 6-month wait."

Sometimes ya just get lucky (-:

By the way, I'd really like to than Jeff Bauer at Keyboard Concepts in Santa Monica and Jeff Schidmt at Music Exchange in San Francisco for all the valuable help.

Above all, I'd like to HIGHLY recommend my local dealer, Classic Pianos in Portland, Oregon. They have bent over backward to accomodate my seemingly endless playing of their pianos and the changing of my mind several times over. Taylor, Rick, Peggy, Brian, Moe, et al. are a class act. They just won Dealer of the Year award at NAMM from Yamaha and have also won an award from Schimmel as something like highest volume dealer. These folks are just terrific! It's not unfair to say that they view their jobs as selling musical happiness and if the customer isn't happy they view it as a failure. (I have no vested interest--I'm only a customer.)

Hi jivemutha,

Thanks so much for the clarification! With my wife and young daughter (and myself) learning piano, I may wish I'd known about a silent piano option It sounds like a great idea, especially if you can hook up a MIDI module to it.

Congrats on finding a C2 stateside and not having to wait so long to receive your new piano. I really enjoyed reading your write-up and learned a lot from it as I'm sure many other prospective piano buyers will too.

Best, Erik

It is so awesome to have great people and dealers helping you. it's a real good feeling to be felt like you are cared for, and knowing that people want you to be happy with your piano.

In a few weeks indeed! at least the waiting time is less now, but still PAAIN while it lasts....

Jivemutha,

I have been following your saga closely for weeks because I too am interested in a silent piano. Your final decision really surprised me! You seemed to be set in an upright and were just waffling between a U3SG (what you had ordered) and a YUS5SG.

Was the issue that you didn't think the upright could be moved upstairs to your new condo?

I regard you as the Piano World resident expert in Yamaha silent systems. Do you mind if I ask a few questions?

Did you get a chance to play a YUS5? Did you get a chance to play any silent upright? If so, how did the touch feel when switching from silent to unsilent(?) mode, and how did the silent upright touch feel in relation to a silent grand? Is it true the silent grands have no change in touch when switching to silent mode? How noisy is the piano when in silent mode? How does the touch on the silent grand compare to the AvantGrand? Is the AvantGrand any noisier in silent mode than a silent acoustic piano?

My sense is I will be trying to decide between an AvantGrand N2 and a YUS5SG, and having to sort through the myriad pluses and minus of each to arrive at a decision.

Thanks for all your well thought-out posts and for sharing what you have learned.

Congratulations on your new C2 silent! I think with this choice you are not making any compromises in any aspect of your playing experience.

1wheeler

You're right. Here's what changed things: we're in our 60s. One friend our age just died of cancer and two more were just diagnosed. My wife said, "This may be our last chance to do some real living. You always wanted a grand. Why don't you check one out?" You can imagine what this led to (in addition to missing a lot of sleep much like a 6-year-old on the night before Christmas).



No. In the end, a 52" upright would have been a breeze and the C2 also makes it, albeit with just an inch or two to spare.



I'm certainly no expert but I'll be glad to tell you what I can.



Yes, I played 2 YUS5's. I also got to play 2 silent uprights. (Apparently, by the way, all current Yamaha Silent Pianos are identical sounding when in digital mode through headphones, so you need not play on different models to get a sense of the digital sound.) Like with most people, the difference in touch between the Silent Piano and the same model in the regular acoustic-only equivalent model was so slight that I didn't notice it. The difference in feel from silent upright to silent grand felt much like the expected difference between an upright action to a grand action. Yamaha claims there is zero difference in feel between silent action and fully acoustic action FOR GRANDS ONLY. They use some fancy technology to compensate for small regulation changes occuring in the silent version, but go to those lengths only in the grands. Again, even in the uprights I couldn't tell there was a problem, which is what most but not all people say.



I had been told the noise of the hammers hitting the padded bar (which can theoretically bother people in the same room as the piano when someone is playing through headphones) would be louder than what is common for a purely digital piano--say a P95 Yamaha. THAT WAS NOT MY EXPERIENCE. If anything, the thumping seemed a little quieter for the silent piano versus a regular digital. In any case, I think the thumping is very unlikely to bother any neighbors even in the middle of the night. Regarding your own family in the same room, it's best to have them hear it. My guess is most but not all would not be bothered. I'm married to the Princess and the Pea. Her plan is to play music in the room at low volume, which will drown out the thump. This will require my using "noise cancelling" headphones (e.g., Bose) so that her quiet music in the room doesn't disturb my practicing with headphones.



With one exception, my advice in trying to decide is to not listen to anything all of us have written. Listen with your ear. The one exception? Don't play each for 10 minutes. Play as much as you can without them throwing you physically out of the store. It really changes. If the N2 continues to feel right after half an hour, it may be your best choice. If instead, it starts to sound synthetic after that length of time, you may find the decision cuts the other way. Good luck, and remember the only "right" choice is the piano YOU like best.



Thank you! Actually, there's almost always some compromise. For a little while I got to play a Schimmel grand almost the same size as a C2 (5'7" vs. 5'8" for the C2) and also available as a silent piano. It sounded so good as to almost be a drug-like experience. On the other hand, the $26.5K the silent C2 (called a "C2SG" for Concert, 2nd size up, Silent Grand) is costing so far exceeds what I had originally planned to spend that ya gotta get off the train someplace. That said, I'm sure the great sound of the C2 will not just please me long term, but I bet that once a person has been playing the same really good instrument for months and months, the fact that somewhere on planet earth something sounds even better becomes irrelevant. I've always seen my wife as vastly better looking than I deserve. What sense would it make to compare her to Elizabeth Taylor?

Best of luck, 1wheeler!

Noise cancelling headphones are designed to cancel out very repetitive (in an acoustics sense) noise such as motor noise or electrical hum. They will not cancel out music. If you just go with full ear cup headphones then they may attenuate the sound enough. Good luck.

Everything you're saying has turned out to be true. Thanks.

jivemutha,

A side question if I may?

How long have yuu been playing consecutively in silent mode with headphones on?

I ask because some people cmaim - even dealers - that most people cannot stand a very long time playing with headphones on as it becomes really tiring?

schwammerl.

To clarify, my comment you quoted about playing "as much as you can" (at the dealership) was in regard to the acoustic sound of the instruments.

Regarding the headphone sound of the digital components, not only are all silent Yamahas the same, I've heard that Schimmel may be using the Yamaha system in their silent pianos. If so, even the silent Schimmels would sound the same as all the Yamahas. Thus one needn't spend too much time comparing headphone sound from one to another.

Regarding the separate issue of long-term playing through headphones . . . Yes, it's a drag. But it beats having the cops arrest you for disturbing the peace at 3 a.m. and for some of us it beats the self-consciousness of playing the same few bars acoustically out loud over and over in order to get them right (while others might be listening).

Above all, headphone playing--even long-term--beats situations in which your only other choice is simply to not play at all. Most of us have found ourselves in that situation and the freedom bought by the silent function outweighs the drag of headphone use, at least from my experience.