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#1840512 - 02/08/12 02:31 AM Re: IVORY II VERSES PIANOTEQ ON AVANT GRAND N3 [Re: sullivang]
Gigantoad Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/02/12
Posts: 336
Originally Posted By: sullivang

I think there's a user here that is not having this problem - I can't remember who it was. I think it was either the N1 or N2 that he was using. Maybe that user is using equipment that has a good strong output level.

Greg.


It's true, I couldn't yet replicate the issue on my N1. I don't know about output levels. My signal currently goes from my home studio mixer headphone output through long messy cables into the living room and into a small portable headphone amp (basically just to have easier volume adjustment on the N1 side) and then into the N1 inputs. Then to the N1 I connect my HD650 headphone.

I can try this evening to use the amp after the N1 output, which I guess would make more sense anyway.

If I let a note decay forever though, the signal will get quieter and quieter until it eventually reaches zero, no matter how loud the input signal was to begin with. That's what I would think at least. So the noise gate should kick in anyway.

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#1840546 - 02/08/12 06:21 AM Re: IVORY II VERSES PIANOTEQ ON AVANT GRAND N3 [Re: hodgkins]
hodgkins Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/19/11
Posts: 14
I read recently on this forum kipesce I think is name is he was very up on this subject .would this noise gate problem effect most piano software such as galaxy etc

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#1840552 - 02/08/12 06:44 AM Re: IVORY II VERSES PIANOTEQ ON AVANT GRAND N3 [Re: Gigantoad]
sullivang Online   blank
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/05/09
Posts: 2169
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Originally Posted By: Gigantoad

If I let a note decay forever though, the signal will get quieter and quieter until it eventually reaches zero, no matter how loud the input signal was to begin with. That's what I would think at least. So the noise gate should kick in anyway.


Agreed, but maybe the noise gate will kick in at such a low level that you don't notice it.

When you connect your headphone amp to the output of the N1, you can then experiment with different levels going IN to the N1. I.e, if you don't hear the problem, just reduce the volume of the mixer output, and then increase the volume on your headphone amp that is connected to the output of the N1, so that you are always listening at a normal level.

I assume it's fiddly to adjust the headphone volume on the N1, and that's why you want an amp with an easy to use volume control - yes?

Greg.

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#1840596 - 02/08/12 09:22 AM Re: IVORY II VERSES PIANOTEQ ON AVANT GRAND N3 [Re: sullivang]
Gigantoad Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/02/12
Posts: 336
Originally Posted By: sullivang
[quote=Gigantoad]
I assume it's fiddly to adjust the headphone volume on the N1, and that's why you want an amp with an easy to use volume control - yes?

Greg.


No, it's just that the mixer is in another room and I can't easily change the volume on that without physically moving my lazy ass. laugh

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#1840597 - 02/08/12 09:22 AM Re: IVORY II VERSES PIANOTEQ ON AVANT GRAND N3 [Re: Gigantoad]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3480
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: Gigantoad
It's true, I couldn't yet replicate the issue on my N1. I don't know about output levels. My signal currently goes from my home studio mixer headphone output through long messy cables into the living room and into a small portable headphone amp (basically just to have easier volume adjustment on the N1 side) and then into the N1 inputs. Then to the N1 I connect my HD650 headphone.


How about if you unplug the headphones and use the onboard speakers?

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#1840697 - 02/08/12 01:02 PM Re: IVORY II VERSES PIANOTEQ ON AVANT GRAND N3 [Re: hodgkins]
Gigantoad Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/02/12
Posts: 336
Ok I figured out what was going on. There is indeed a noise gate. I hadn't heard it because the signal I put into it was fairly loud due to the headphone amp, but mainly it was because there is a bit of noise coming from the long messy cables (cheap extender cables, adapters and whatnot) that I hadn't noticed before. I think the volume plus the noise kept the noise gate open.

It's only a temporary setup for toying around a bit, but its amateurish character has apparently defeated the noise gate. Basically if the noise is loud enough, the noise gate never kicks in at all. No suprise I guess.

The noise isn't loud enough to really disturb me. I could certainly live with it. My ears seem to be tolerant in that regard. smile

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#1840748 - 02/08/12 02:41 PM Re: IVORY II VERSES PIANOTEQ ON AVANT GRAND N3 [Re: Gigantoad]
Macy Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/10
Posts: 598
This seems crazy. Can anyone think of a reason for this "feature". This just seems like a defective design to me in a product of this nature. I could rationalize something like this with a microphone input, but not a high level line input.
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CVP-409GP, Vintage D, Ivory II GP's & American Concert D, True Keys American D, Ravenscroft 275, Garritan Authorized Steinway, Alicia's Keys, EWQL Pianos, MainStage, iPad/forScore/PageFlip Cicada, Custom Mac MIDI/Audio Software Design, Macs Everywhere

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#1840816 - 02/08/12 05:00 PM Re: IVORY II VERSES PIANOTEQ ON AVANT GRAND N3 [Re: hodgkins]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3759
Loc: North Carolina
Yes. To me it seems to be a defect. Too bad the board doesn't have a YamahaJames member to address the point.

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#1840875 - 02/08/12 06:51 PM Re: IVORY II VERSES PIANOTEQ ON AVANT GRAND N3 [Re: hodgkins]
sullivang Online   blank
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/05/09
Posts: 2169
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Its obviously a defect, yes. However, I think there is some merit in wanting to completely disable any input that is not being used, for the absolute best SNR, especially on a premium product. They should have used a switch of some description.

It would be good if someone could measure the maximum possible input level at the onset of clipping.

Greg.


Edited by sullivang (02/08/12 06:54 PM)

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#1840883 - 02/08/12 07:06 PM Re: IVORY II VERSES PIANOTEQ ON AVANT GRAND N3 [Re: hodgkins]
EssBrace Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2373
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
To call it a defect suggests it was unintended by Yamaha and that something is faulty. It clearly was intended so it's not a defect as such - but there just doesn't seem to be a sensible explanation!

In fact it's totally crazy that there is this noise-gate. It's doubly cruel because one of the uses it most specifically excludes is the use of software pianos because a good deal of some piano music causes the listener to focus on very quiet, lingering and decaying passages and notes - and it is under these circumstances the noise-gate carves up the sound in a very ugly way.
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#1840893 - 02/08/12 07:39 PM Re: IVORY II VERSES PIANOTEQ ON AVANT GRAND N3 [Re: EssBrace]
Macy Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/10
Posts: 598
Originally Posted By: EssBrace
To call it a defect suggests it was unintended by Yamaha and that something is faulty. It clearly was intended so it's not a defect as such - but there just doesn't seem to be a sensible explanation!

In fact it's totally crazy that there is this noise-gate. ...

I'm not sure it was intended. I'd have to see a schematic for this product and see how it was implemented. If it is a discrete implementation (extra transistor, etc) then I'd say it was probably intended since it wasn't removed. But if it is part of a multi-function analog IC taken from another product (and an undefeatable feature of that IC), it may have been used without the (inexperienced?) engineer realizing the function was in the IC, and changing the design was too time-consuming when it was finally discovered. The fact that it shows up as a troubleshooting problem in the manual, with no reasonable need for the function it performs, seems to suggest that it was somehow implemented by mistake.



Edited by Macy (02/08/12 07:41 PM)
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#1840923 - 02/08/12 09:21 PM Re: IVORY II VERSES PIANOTEQ ON AVANT GRAND N3 [Re: hodgkins]
sullivang Online   blank
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/05/09
Posts: 2169
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Whether or not Yamaha intended for there to be a noise-gate, IMHO from the customer's perspective the line input is "defective", because it does not function properly. I agree that it is plausible that it's there by pure accident - interesting thought!

Quote:
Regarding generating a background sound to defeat the noise-gate, here's a copy & paste from a post in an earlier thread:

FWIW, here's a VST test tone generator that you could try using in your VST host alongside your virtual piano, to (hopefully) defeat the noise gate: http://mda.smartelectronix.com/ (download the plugins and extract the "TestTone" one. Set mode to "Sine" and adjust the frequency and level. Careful not to blow your speakers).

If the idea works, it would be better if the test tone could be silenced when not required, to maintain headroom. I.e, it would continually monitor the (real) signal level, and only introduce the tone if the signal level drops below a threshold level. I'm sure a plugin developer could whip this up in no time. (I wonder whether some DAWs could be configured to do this, too)


If you can't find a frequency & level that is inaudible, white noise might sound less intrusive I suppose.

Greg.


Edited by sullivang (02/08/12 09:27 PM)

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#1841093 - 02/09/12 05:41 AM Re: IVORY II VERSES PIANOTEQ ON AVANT GRAND N3 [Re: hodgkins]
EssBrace Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2373
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
One of the first adopters of the N3, who is a very valued member of PW, first found this problem and had some extensive correspondence with Yamaha regarding it. Yamaha are well aware of this characteristic and it is difficult to believe this happened by accident.

The N1 still has this problem and it was released ages after N3 and N2 so one can only draw the conclusion it was designed in to the AG series. Had it been a defect or fault then they would have changed the design for N1, surely?

Why did you do this Yamaha!!???
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Yamaha CP1

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#1841152 - 02/09/12 09:14 AM Re: IVORY II VERSES PIANOTEQ ON AVANT GRAND N3 [Re: Melodialworks Music]
Dave Horne Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 5275
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
Originally Posted By: Melodialworks Music
Not sure if this has been mentioned, but the noise gate (which you cannot defeat) ruins and external audio playing through the N3's audio system.



I'll run my wife's laptop (which is more or less permanently connected to the N3) as the sound source for internet radio as well as playing back WAV or mp3 files to play against.

I have never encountered any deficiency in the sound and if there is in fact a noise gate, I've never noticed it, never.

(I also have a Symetrix 525 dual gated compressor\limiter in my rack case primarily for vocalists, so I'm familiar with setting thresholds to eliminate unwanted noise.)
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#1841167 - 02/09/12 09:55 AM Re: IVORY II VERSES PIANOTEQ ON AVANT GRAND N3 [Re: hodgkins]
Dazzie2 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/10/12
Posts: 82
Does this happen to other yamaha dpianos, I have a yamaha clp440 i like the sounds on the piano but wanted to add more , i was getting a copy of ivory 2 with an external usb sound card and was going to use the internal speakers on the piano. I dont think you need to use midi cables as there is a usb to host .

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#1841174 - 02/09/12 10:02 AM Re: IVORY II VERSES PIANOTEQ ON AVANT GRAND N3 [Re: Dave Horne]
Melodialworks Music Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/05
Posts: 1309
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: Dave Horne
[quote=Melodialworks Music]
I'll run my wife's laptop (which is more or less permanently connected to the N3) as the sound source for internet radio as well as playing back WAV or mp3 files to play against.

I have never encountered any deficiency in the sound and if there is in fact a noise gate, I've never noticed it, never.



Exactly. The material that you're running through the N3's audio system doesn't get soft enough to trigger the noise gate.

Install a software piano on the laptop, play and hold a note, at a low volume level. Listen as the note decays. The noise gate will kick in before the note has naturally decayed. Then you'll know exactly what some of us are experiencing.

If you play loud, and don't sustain notes, particularly in an exposed fashion (end of phrases, end of piece) then you'll likely not notice the issue.
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#1841184 - 02/09/12 10:15 AM Re: IVORY II VERSES PIANOTEQ ON AVANT GRAND N3 [Re: Dazzie2]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3759
Loc: North Carolina
No, other Yamaha digitals don't have this problem. But ...

If you're going through the trouble and expense of running a piano library (Ivory), I don't think it's worthwhile to feed those sounds back into the piano. The piano speakers aren't very good. I suggest using an external sound system.
Originally Posted By: Dazzie2
Does this happen to other yamaha dpianos? I was getting a copy of ivory 2 with an external usb sound card and was going to use the internal speakers on the piano.

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#1841221 - 02/09/12 11:39 AM Re: IVORY II VERSES PIANOTEQ ON AVANT GRAND N3 [Re: hodgkins]
Dave Horne Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 5275
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
Is this ... issue, a real world issue or do you have to close the curtains, turns the lights out, crank up the volume, play a single solitary note while you squint your eyes, and listen as it fades to oblivion?

In real time, actual playing or in recordings for professional use, would anyone hear this?

Could someone provide a real world example of this and post it?
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#1841234 - 02/09/12 12:09 PM Re: IVORY II VERSES PIANOTEQ ON AVANT GRAND N3 [Re: Dave Horne]
Melodialworks Music Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/05
Posts: 1309
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: Dave Horne

In real time, actual playing or in recordings for professional use, would anyone hear this?


Good grief. The answer is yes. Do you think we're making this stuff up?

Just because you don't hear it, doesn't mean that the problem doesn't exist.

In any case, you're not running software pianos through your N3 audio system. In fact, you really don't actually even use the audio system of the N3, but typically use headphones, right?
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Yamaha C3X
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#1841242 - 02/09/12 12:20 PM Re: IVORY II VERSES PIANOTEQ ON AVANT GRAND N3 [Re: Melodialworks Music]
Dave Horne Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 5275
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
Originally Posted By: Melodialworks Music
Originally Posted By: Dave Horne

In real time, actual playing or in recordings for professional use, would anyone hear this?


Good grief. The answer is yes. Do you think we're making this stuff up?

Just because you don't hear it, doesn't mean that the problem doesn't exist.

In any case, you're not running software pianos through your N3 audio system. In fact, you really don't actually even use the audio system of the N3, but typically use headphones, right?


I am not running software pianos through my N3 though I have run all kinds of music through the N3 listening through headphones as well as using its sound system. (As a matter of fact, I now use the N3 as my home stereo since it's more convenient to access than my home stereo.)

I just now played a sound source through the speaker system, going from completely off (no sound) to rather loud. I did not hear an abrupt threshold where a 'gate' opened. What I heard is the same I hear though my home stereo system, the sound starts very quietly and then gets louder.

So, in real world playing, using a software piano, there is an abrupt change in sound level from nothing to where a 'gate' opens ... and this is heard by many?
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#1841248 - 02/09/12 12:34 PM Re: IVORY II VERSES PIANOTEQ ON AVANT GRAND N3 [Re: hodgkins]
EssBrace Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2373
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
The problem is real and easy to replicate and extremely impactive on the use of software pianos - in fact they would be completely unusable with the N3's onboard sound system.

My experience of it was with the use of a mic run through a Boss mic processor run into the N3's inputs. The Boss outputs the mic's sound at line level and of course adds whatever reverb/effects you want. If you use reverb and sing into the mic the reverb, as it dies away (not the last few milliseconds but when there is still very audible and essential reverb sound), just cuts off very abruptly making the thing totally unusable. I can see how the use of software pianos would be completely impossible. Which is a crying shame when you think about it.
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#1841270 - 02/09/12 01:14 PM Re: IVORY II VERSES PIANOTEQ ON AVANT GRAND N3 [Re: hodgkins]
Dave Horne Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 5275
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
Well, I used my Shure SM58 going into my Mackie 1202 mixer and the effects were supplied by an Alesis MicroVerb4. The output of the mixer was fed into the line IN (L+R) of the N3 ... and if there was a noise gate implemented by the N3, I did not hear it.

I spoke into the mic and let the reverb fade into oblivion. If there is in fact a noise gate, I can not imagine hearing it in real world use.

As for the mic and its sound, everything sounded as I expected it to ... and I was listening for something as described here. I didn't hear it. There were no abrupt fades where a noise gate's threshold was crossed. ... and I listened through Sennheiser HD 598's with the sound cranked.

I don't see this as a real world issue, but that's just my opinion.
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#1841277 - 02/09/12 01:31 PM Re: IVORY II VERSES PIANOTEQ ON AVANT GRAND N3 [Re: hodgkins]
Gigantoad Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/02/12
Posts: 336
I think it depends a lot on the input signal used. If it's reasonably loud, the noise gate won't kick in much when playing normally. Playing very quietly, especially in higher registers, can lead to the noise gate ruining the sustain of every note though. But again if the input signal is loud and maybe has a bit of background noise it won't be much of an issue.

You should be able to test this on your N3 easily, just lower the input volume of your music enough and at some point the noise gate will start fighting the signal.

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