Is this Chopin?

Ha-ha! I started working on this one, on and off, two years ago, and I think it's finally starting to gel. Starting to gel, I said! So, I was crashing around with it today, and I really want to hear from anyone who would like to lay into me about it.

There are several things to know about this recording:

1) There are two run-throughs of the piece back to back in this clip. Each run-through is about 1:30 long.

2) Some parts that I botched badly in the first run through I managed to not botch too badly in the second. But it really is a matter of degree! Botching abounds. It is sloppy playing and there are no edits. I missed oodles of notes, but I picked a tempo that seemed to make sense to me, and tried to hang on.

3) This is recorded on the Yamaha G3 at a friendly church where they let me practice (and play for them from time to time! ). I used my Tascam DP-004 to record it, using the built-in condensor mics. I kept the piano lid closed, and placed the recorder on top of it at the tail of the piano on top of my wool knit winter hat (to minimize vibrations), and pointed the mics AWAY from the piano out into the sanctuary. The only thing I did to the sound file is normalize it and convert it from .wav to mp3.

So, please let me have it. This is the first Chopin Etude I've ever attempted. Am I on the right track, or am I way off in left planet Zoid? I am very interested in any help you have to give me. You will not hurt my feelings.

Chopin--Trois Etudes, No. 2, Allegretto in Ab Maj.

--Andy

I think you play the 2nd and 3rd notes in each RH triplet too loudly compared to the first note. Another suggestion would be to play less metronomically. The general dynamic sounds too loud throughout when I have the volume indicator at the mid point on both your recording and my computer.

This etude is coming along quite nicely! Thanks for sharing. I enjoyed listening to your performance. I only listened to the first version - I'm a little pressed for time right now.

Might I make a few suggestions:

- Overall, the etude is too loud. Consider the piano marking at the very beginning - the etude should have a hushed opening. The chords could "float" more - try using a lighter touch.

- Your performance seems too RH-oriented at the moment. The LH bass notes could use more ooooomph.

- I agree with pianoloverus' comments. Your rhythm is too mechanical and the 2nd and 3rd notes sound accented. Have you thought about a small rit at m. 32?

- Be sure to voice the final two chords!

Good start on this lovely etude! This was my first etude; it's one of my favourites. Have fun!

Pianoloverus,

Do you think that the triplet should be played evenly in terms of dynamics, or that they should have the accent placed on the first beat of each triplet? I kinda thought I wanted each triplet to grow and move the action forward that way, but I am not disagreeing with you. Yet. (c'mon! that was funny!...)

What do you think of the tempo?

Elizabeth--

Please listen to the second try! It's a little less "loud," but I agree with you that a light touch on the chords is definitely called for! I really like the "float" concept! Do you think the triplets need to be even, dynamically?

How loud do you think the piece should get? I mean, from the start at "p," what dynamic level should the piece ever reach? And where should it reach this dynamic level?

What do you mean when you say, "voice the final two chords." Can you be more specific?

Thank you so much for listening and commenting! I appreciate your thoughts!

--Andy

Andy,

First of all, thanks for introducing me to this etude. I love it. I've been listening to op.10 and 25 for decades, but this is somehow the first time I've ever heard this one. It's a small life-changing event, and I'll probably always associate it with you now.

I think you've got a good handle on the piece; it sounds like you're very much in control of it, which is no small accomplishment. I listened to both takes. My main suggestion, which has mentioned earlier: the right hand is too dominant, and too mechanical. I have two suggestions:

1. The right hand, in addition to being a bunch of chords, is also a melody, which needs to sing, and sigh, and express itself. I think that the juxtaposition of the chords' inherently mechanical nature with the poetry they're trying to express is one of the real challenges here. Sing the melody (the top notes of the chords), play it lighter, less mechanically, more gracefully. Give it a shape. By making it softer, it will say more, I think.

2. Pay more attention to the left hand. Let us hear more of it. It does all kinds of interesting things, like that surprisingly low Eb at the beginning, and the held notes in m.9-10, and, especially, the grace note, which should really be brought out. By bringing out the left hand more, you'll achieve a graceful balance between the two hands, which will again help with the right hand's current metronomical dominance.

One additional dynamic/shaping point to consider: there's a long crescendo starting at m.25; I would start softer here, so that you have somewhere to go.

This is great work!

-Jason

Thanks, Jason! Will do!!!

One of my problems is that I want to sing the melody, but not neglect the melty dissonances in some of the chords. Yes! I see it now! That is what you are saying about mechanical chords trying to express a sigh.

Is the tempo too frantic, or do you think with a lighter touch, attention to melody, and support from the bass, that the tempo can work? My own thought was that the melody comes out better when played at this kind of clip, but for the longest while, I was playing it much more slowly and shaping according to the tension and release in the chords.

Andy -

You might want to give these a listen.......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZcASeDRrpA&feature=fvwrel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZItBrjyy0PY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sY1pL2TsLnE&feature=related

No, it's not too fast. It's marked allegretto. If you slow it down, it will become ponderous and too carefully considered. Instead, it needs to flow, like water. Think "light" and "grace".

-J

Thanks, carey! I didn't expect to see you here! So, all of those versions push and pull... hmmm...... Did Brendel ever play this one?

Jason, I get it! I can't wait to try this again on the 'morrow. Who knows? Maybe I'll have another recording to share!

Thanks so much, you guys!

thanks for the recording. actually i am listening now. I have dabbled with these pieces.

very Chopin-y. more later

I think the natural very slight on accent on the first note of each triplet is missing because the second and third notes are too loud. The main thing is to think of the right hand as a continuous although highly unusual melody.

Also I'd play the upper note in each chord louder compared to the other notes. The tempo is fine.

Listen to Rubinstein's recording to get more of an idea of how the piece should sound. The piece should sound very gentle.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8KtY5dvF2_A

Thanks, Pianoloverus!

The Rubenstein recording is absolutely gorgeous! (Starts at ~2:12 in the clip PL gave us, people.) He's playing it like a gentle dance. I was actually going for a "da-Da-DA da-Da-DA," forward momentum romp, but I think my recording from yesterday sounds too frantic. The horse is crashing around the barn in a tutu. I hope to calm it down a notch or five today and we'll see what comes out! Perhaps lambs leaping in party hats?

Rubenstein also does the most amazing thing with that trill at the end. That was phenomenal!

I see something in this piece that I wonder if others see as well--that is, this is one of those "intervening experience" pieces, where it starts with a certain frame of reference by making a musical statement, changes mood significantly, then comes back to reiterate something of the opening statement; but in closing, that statement needs to take the intervening experience into account in its expression, I think. Or, not?

This is a beautiful piece and the first time I ever heard it! I played the file 3 times, so heard it 6 times total. Just on first impression, it felt like the left hand wanted to be heard more. You succeeded in making it sound like a beautiful piece though (hence the 6 listens)! Thanks for the upload.

Thank you, cefinow! That warms my heart, for sure!

_____________________

So, here is today's take. My goodness, is this piece difficult for me to play softly! I think it will take a good amount of time for me to tame this beast!

Based on everyone's comments (thank you, again!) I tried to 1) start at the marked dynamic of "piano," 2) play the triplets evenly, 3) employ a more fluid give and take with the timing of it all, 4) bring out the bass line more. I think the improvement (if any) is incremental at best, but at least I know where I'm going, now!

For today's recording, I put the lid at full stick, and placed the digital recorder about 10 ft. away with the built in condensor mics pointing right at the inside of the lid. Because of the way the piano is positioned, this also meant that the mics were pointing out into the sanctuary, so there is a good deal of natural reverb to be heard. It is not unpleasant, but, again, it sure is hard to tame that right hand and find the right dynamic balance for the left and right hands. I think pedalling is an issue too.

Oh, and I wasn't exactly able to execute that beautiful Rubensteinian trill just yet, either!

Please let me know if you hear any progress in this. Thanks so much, everyone!

Chopin--Trois Etudes, No. 2, Allegretto in Ab Maj, today's iteration

--Andy

It sounds a lot different to me. I really like the changes-- the reverb, the more audible bass, more flexible timing in the right hand. Unqualified "like" this time! From an unqualified critic, hehe. Can you record two back-to-back though? Do you know how much work it is to keep clicking the play button...This is such a gorgeous piece!

Thank you, cefinow!!! Now, I'm shootin' for unqualified "LUUHVE!!!"

I tend to shy away from Chopin etudes because they are too arpeggeeyohee. Arpeggios freak me out and tick me off. I like playing chords and scales, and this one grabbed me right away! It's half of what I like! I LUUHVE the Rubenstein clip Pianoloverus gave us to listen to. Have you heard it? I think Rubenstein uses the soft pedal throughout on that one, though. I'm pretty sure.

Thank you so much for the encouragement, cefinow! I can certainly copy and paste this into a string as long as you want it to be. Anything to make it easier for you to listen to!

--Andy

I listened to your lastest version; it sounds much more expressive! The etude is "breathing" more freely now. You could use even more rubato, especially at the ends of phrases. Don't be afraid to stretch the tempo, slow down, and take a deep breath.


No, there should a subtle emphasis on the first beat of each triplet. Overall, the main focus should be on the shaping of the top notes. Here's an idea that's helped me with this piece: try thinking horizontally instead of vertically. Imagine a long melodic line instead of: -rest-chord-chord-Chord-chord-chord... Sorry if that's confusing!

Sometimes I wonder if you are coming too far off the key after you play each chord. Have you tried staying as close to the keys as possible? It helps to create the light, airy tone this etude requires.


This piece could reach a fortissimo level - but it's entirely up to you. I thought the dynamics were lovely in the latest recording.


I'm sorry; I should have clarified. By "voice", I mean make sure the soprano notes are fully projected and louder than the other chord notes. The final B-flat-A-flat melody should have a lovely singing quality.

Your playing is very musical and thoughtful: a real pleasure to listen to!

That is a very good point! Thank you so much, Elizabeth! All of what you shared helps very much, and, no, it is not confusing! This evening, I was listening to the Rubenstein clip again, and paying close attention to the definition, and the way his pedalling figures into it. It's going to be a combination of chord-legato (if there is such a thing!) and light pedalling that wins the day with this one, I think. I like your idea of thinking horizontally. I can't help but think, now, that the actual accent is not a "first of triplet" rule, but determined by the horizontal line--ump da da DA da da da da da DA DA da da da DA DA da da DA da da DA DA DA, DAH DA DA DA, DAH DAH DAH DA DA DA and so on.

Thank you for listening so closely, and for all of your thoughts and kind words! I will keep them in my attention when I sit down to work at this again, tomorrow!

--Andy

Andy~
Your playing is beautiful. It is fascinating to note the degree of control you show from one recording to the next. The ever-elusive perfect take rules! I look forward to hearing a third expression of yours with this piece - the evolution is quite compelling!

Glen

Well, Glen, funny you should say that! Thank you for the compliment, because I find it encouraging. To me, it doesn't sound beautiful (well, I mean, I think the composition sounds beautiful, and I love being in the middle of the sound of it as I crash around with it), but, from where I sit, I think it sounds sloppy and mangled and out of control! However, as to the third expression, of course, I am pleased to oblige.

Let me tell you what went into whatever degree of contol you might perceive in today's attempts...

Before I turned on the recorder to do the "run thoughs," first I experimented with Lizzy's idea of keeping my fingers close to the keys. I discovered that if I played the right hand flat-fingered, striking the keys with pads and knuckles rather than tips, and kept my fingers and wrist very, very relaxed, I could play with much better control and accuracy at this tempo. It felt weird! So, I practiced RH alone, slowly at first, paying attention mainly to dynamics and voicing with this new feel. Then, I concentrated on the LH, and played it slowly and deliberately, BUT, I also hammered the notes! I think part of my problem in bringing out the bass line was lack of confidence with the part. Then, I tried playing HT, legato without pedal. I tried that several times, and it sounded terrible, but it was good practice, and I learned some things about my fingering. Then, I put it together more or less up to speed, and when I got to the final trill, I slowed way, way down and did HS and HT, and actually counted the measure out loud over and over and finally got something to work. Then, I did several run throughs where I played the RH pianissimo, and the LH fortissimo. I mean, I really let the LH have it! I thought about recording that practice, because it sounded kind of neat, but then I thought I'd better spare you all the shock. Then, I did a couple of run throughs where I tried to play it toward where I think it's actually going. After that, I practiced some Bach and Beethoven, and then came back to it and recorded this "documentary performance" for you to hear...

So, in this clip, there are three full run throughs and several false starts. (Cefinow, just for you, if you want, I can edit out the false starts, and you will have almost four whole minutes to listen to! ) In each run through, I actually managed to get something right, but I also managed to get a lot wrong. I think the second run through is the best, overall. I really tried to pick up on Jason's suggestion to bring out the uniqueness of mm. 9, 13, 49 and 53, and to leave room for the crescendo that's indicated at m. 25. Also, I tried to let it breathe better, as many of you have mentioned, but especially at mm. 19-20 and 22-23, where, to me, the LH evokes a broad inhale, exhale. Through it all, I tried to pay very close attention to the pedalling to get a cleaner sound and better phrase definition.

And, gooddog/Deborah my friend, if you are listening, I left in my "self-talk" for you to hear! It's not easy to pick up, so I'm providing you a transcript.

Chopin--Trois Etudes, No. 2, Allegretto in Ab Maj., today's work, with vocals

0:01 1st run through (well, actually it's the 2nd, but the first one was flat and lifeless, so I trimmed it off)
1:37 False start
1:51 "Almost"
1:54 False start
1:58 2nd run through
3:37 False start
3:46 "Rats!"
3:48 False start
4:06 "Okay... You can do this! Now let's go!"
4:11 False start
4:13 3rd run through
5:19 (somewhere around m. 45) "Ahhhh! Shoot!!!"
5:25 Laughter
5:44 "Darn it, darn it!"
5:45 Specially voiced final chord, just for Lizzy
5:46 "Okay... One more time."
5:54 Fade out

Thank you all, again, for your help! I'm very grateful for it, and I am very much open to more suggestions!

--Andy

EDIT: Omigosh! I forgot to tell you something VERY important! I played all of these with the soft pedal down, ala Rubenstein!

Lovely! I listened to all three run throughs. Your tone has improved considerably and the voicing is on its way. I think the LH could be more prominent yet; it's still generally in the background. Maybe this is due to your recording setup?

Anyways, I enjoyed listening. Cheers!

Rubinstein

I spell funny when I get hungry.

It's good, CB. It sounds like you are "consolidating your gains" that you made on the second upload.

Some of the points mentioned above are exactly the same things that came up in my lesson yesterday, on the first 2 lines of Schubert 142-2. Play the chords with a horizontal melodic feeling. Play the top note of the chord with more emphasis, as it's the melody line. I asked, how do you play the top note of a triad with more emphasis? Teacher said she learned by playing top note with emphasis, then adding a softer third immediately after, then gradually incorporating the two parts into one chord, keeping the same emphasis in the fingers.

(I'd read on PW that someone played it as a wedding processional, so it had gotten into my mind that way... and processionals have a very measured stately feel! I finally caved and listened to some versions on youtube to get the idea... thought playing chords horizontally must be like trying to make oak trees dance... Plus I have such a sense of strict tempo when I am playing it)

Maybe the above is relevant to the etude. Anyway, you play it beautifully. Sorry about not "luuhving" it, but the only step above "like" for me is "this must be fake."

@Lizzy--Thank you! Yes, I learned that if I pat the keys with an open hand in the treble, I got much better control of the volume AND it even helped with hand position in some chord changes. I'm not sure what to think about the bass. I feel like I was really mashing it, and yet the LH is still buried and the RH still dominates. So, it's got something to do with clarity (pedalling) and voicing the RH chords properly, so they don't get in the way of the bass line, I think. I will definitely puzzle over this.

@cefinow--You crack me up! You really do! "Making oak trees dance!" That would be Lucy in Prince Caspian! "Oh, trees! Trees! Trees!"... Anyway, I will settle for "like" at this point, and I am going to take all of these suggestions and comments to heart while I bring this Etude back to the shop, and I'll post an updated recording when I feel like I've mastered the execution of some of this very tricky stuff! Because, while I am still shooting for "luuhve," I hope to at least advance to a few degrees below "this must be fake." Ha-ha!!!

Thanks for listening, everybody!

--Andy