AH HA! Now it all makes sense.

I couldn't agree more. I know someone who has a degree in music and they would try to teach me music theory but didn't know how to explain it in simplified terms so beginner could understand it. It was so confusing to me at that time that I thought I would never understand it. I also had a piano teacher the was really nasty (haven't we all had one of those). I dreaded my lessons and started to believe that I just wasn't capable of learning to play the piano.

It's unfortunate because I think there are a lot of teachers out there not doing a good job but the students turn it onto themselves. Sadly some people quit before they realize that they are capable of learning the piano or music theory.

G A G S ? What clef do those notes belong to? (j/k)

Very good point! We need see it from their perspective as well.
And we also need to take a look at ourselves before we judge others.

I am not "interpreting" your answer, I am questioning it. It was stated in my hypothetical scenario that Pires style would be disliked. I think you kind of missed the point. The point of Pires and Barenboim was simply to ask you if you think teaching can be productive when the personality of the student and the teacher are opposite to each other, and whether or not it would be appropriate in such a case for a student to find a new instructor (which would mean questioning their current instructor).

I am also not changing the question, I merely made that last remark in reference to my first post on this thread which has been ignored by you. Nothing about a person's expertise or love of music necessitates them being a good instructor.

Fair enough, except "serving one's music" does not in any way guarantee superb teaching skills, so no student ought to blindly serve a teacher on the basis of the teacher's service to his or her own music. The art of music pedagogy is perhaps far more complex than the linear relationship implied by your use of servile language, such as "serving" and "servitude."

Since we have shifted to the topic of effective teachers, I think it might be INSTRUCTIONAL to add some dialog from the students to the excellent snippets of master classes provided by polyphasicpianist. None of our “students” in these master classes has any critique for their “teacher”, but if they did, I am certain it would sound something like this.

First, Maestro Barenboim, who everyone agrees would make an excellent teacher:


[*] “I haven’t really dared tell you until now, but I don’t really like this Ludwig guy.”
[*] “My former teacher just sat there and listened - would you like a glass of water or something?”
[*] “You may not remember, but one of my goals was to play jazz.”
[*] “If you keep picking on every little thing, we’re never gonna make any progress.”


And, just so she does not feel left out, Maestra Pires, who no one on this Forum would want as a teacher, being non-communicative as she is. .


[*] “You specifically promised that we could work on theory this time”
[*] “I feel threatened when you won’t let me look at my hands.”
[*] “At least you stopped scribbling in my lesson books.”
[*] “I don’t like it when you TOUCH me there.”

Ed

The topic hasn't shifted. You said in your OP that "At the very heart of many of these complaints seems to be student impatience." And a lot of people here are saying that the situation is more complicated than that for the very simple reason that the both the effectiveness of the instructor as an instructor of piano, and any potential personality conflicts, need to be taken into consideration. Given that either of these things may be interfering with the learning process it is seems a perfectly healthy thing for some people to have questions about the quality of instruction they are receiving, especially if they are novices of the piano who haven't a lot of experience dealing with the complexities of Adult student-teacher relationships.

I don't like him either. But we're stuck with him.

At this point, a couple bottles of Glenlevit is more like it.

Then go bug jazzwee.
When did we start making progress?


This theory isn't good enough? What were you expecting? Quantum Physics?

Then look at your hands. And quit touching yourself there.

Those are lesson books?

I refuse to touch you where you want me to.

A hearty Thank You, Ron. That is just what this thread needed at this point!

Ed

I see where you're going with this because of your former observations, but this could be turned into sense rather than nonsense.

The two examples are masterclasses meant for advanced students. They have technique and musical understanding already. Also, masterclasses don't function like lessons. I think that PPP who put up these examples is an advanced student (not sure).

The imaginary *] quote you put up paraphrases a comment in the ABF by an adult beginner. A beginner needs guidance in all aspects: the piece itself, how to approach it, how to move at the piano, how to practice specifically and how to organize that practising. Meanwhile it is common for adult students to not get much guidance because so much confusion reigns about how to teach us and what we want. Plus we may not know what is needed.

If someone says "My teacher just sits there and listens." I'd want to respond by seeing what is going on, if there is actually a problem, and what its nature may be. If the student's guidance is no more than "the note in m. 3 is A#" and "do the next page" (week after week) you'll probably want to talk to the teacher and get some goals established. This is not pertinent to the masterclasses because a) the student should have the skills and can work independently and b) it's a masterclass, not a lesson.

In a masterclass, the teacher can highlight some major points but he can't do that much teaching. In lessons the teacher builds from week to week. The essence of lessons is continuance. Lesson with interaction => work on those things at home => teacher sees what has developed from the practicing in the next lesson, and builds on that. The teacher can't build unless the student practices. The student can't practice effectively unless properly guided. It's a double edge synergy if you will.

As someone else wrote, the adult student - teacher scenario is complicated. As well, we have a pile of backgrounds and reasons for studying piano.

I am glad you joined us on the topic, and I am hoping you will post some of your thoughts about the agreement on goals between student and teacher.

And, naturally, while those master class videos have nothing to do with a lesson setting, I really enjoyed their content. In fact, I can't imagine any artist, of the calibre to conduct true master classes, who would still maintain private students. If there are, they are few in number.

Ed

Why does Pires discourage students from looking at the keyboard while playing?

Michelangeli and Horowitz looked at the keyboard when playing.

I was puzzled about the whole keyboard thing when I restarted on my own 3 years ago and got it wrong. For beginners the idea is for us to be able to read music and not depend on memory and the look of our fingers on the keys. So the aim is FOR a reading ability and independence, but it comes across as *against* looking at the keys. In my case it created a kind of unnatural stiffness because we tend to look toward where we move, and our head is attached to the rest of us. Also not ever looking makes one play like a blind person with the fingers creeping close on the keys whereas you want to be able to make larger and freer motions at times. Not to mention accurate large leaps.

Pires isn't teaching a beginner so it can't be "reading". I wonder if it's body use - like if you look up your torso also elevates more? Or maybe for feeling the music more and rising beyond the notes? Or maybe to engage the ears and imagination more? Or because of what she observed with this particular pianist?

I think it's gospel truth like "the sun revolves around the earth" used to be gospel truth.

By the way, kids typically slump over and say "I'm tired today" when they haven't practiced. Haven't noticed similarities in adults who haven't practiced much. But I do love seeing the excitement when a student comes in to show me how they've mastered the concept we were working on.

I just think complaining is a more natural human trait. We should all be more aware of trying to balance that with "uncomplaining" about the good things.

Kymber, the way I teach sight reading (and the way I read myself) is to look for a few main notes and relate all the other notes around them. If you know where C is, D is above it, B is below it. Far easier than trying to remember a bunch of sayings or memorizing every note. Besides, ledger lines don't have any fancy sayings.

Agreed! In fact I once started keeping an "abundance list" I would jot down anything and everything good and positive big or small that happened through out the day. I have to say it was amazing how many things I would have and did forget about had it not been on that list. Yet we somehow managed to remember something that annoyed us three days ago-ha ha. After a while the appreciation started to become second nature. And I have to say living in a world where you are seeking out the good and diminishing the negative is a much more pleasant existence.


yes, great advice, reading in intervals as opposed to each individual note. I'm starting to get better at that. Its funny I notice sometimes I seems the less I think about it the better I do. I guess it's all just a part of the process.

The title of the post sounds like something potentially way more lascivious than what is actually taking place here. Ah well...

Sorry to disappoint. Are you volunteering to spice things up?

Work is a little boring today, sorry :-).

Becca,

You are absolutely right! I am complaining about all the needless complaining.

Sort of like sending out millions of flyers to announce the government's New Paper Reduction Act.

Ed

And needlessly so, I might add.

So, Brent, is that a complaint?

Ed

It's not a simple question, as people have been saying. I had to delve into it because I got caught out as a student first time round. First thing, (1) borrowing from your OP:

(1) cont.: My assumption as student was: Playing requires certain skills which are taught in a given order, which all students will get generally in the same manner. The governing factor is what is needed to that end. But it is not always so. Students won't necessarily follow this, so teachers may aim toward what attracts the student. Or teaching is toward results in exams or competitions (for kids), sacrificing those things that don't show up there. For example, a brilliant performance will not reveal that the student has not learned how to read music, so why bother. Or assumptions are made per what adults want and will accept, and teaching goes toward this.

If teaching is toward goals, then those goals have to be defined to make sure student and teacher are on the same page. This is especially important for adult students. Your goal may be "I want the skills and knowledge for playing music well on the piano." - not as obvious as it should be. It could be "I want to improvise pop tunes, play jazz." in which case the teacher may create subgoals for you: solid handle on chords, modes, listening, and whatever else - which will get you there. If there are no goals, how can you get anywhere?

Two teachers can be giving the same piece. But one may be developing reading ability, building skills by observing his student and choosing that piece for that reason, and the other may simply be correcting wrong notes as they occur and maybe taking shortcuts like writing in finger numbers.

(2) Being able to define goals if you have no experience is tricky. Or suppose you are already in lessons, you're just being given pieces and there are no real goals - how do you articulate that or know what is happening? That's when we come into forums asking weird questions while trying to get our bearing. We're adults and expected to be articulate, but don't "speak the language".

(3) Supposing that you've defined goals and have a decent teacher. You still have to learn how to follow in a lesson, how to practice at home, what to aim for, when to ask questions, when not to, and how. At home you may aim to play the piece perfectly - maybe your teacher wants you to count well and doesn't want perfection. Chances are that because you are an intelligent adult, you're seen as more sophisticated than you are for this particular thing.

- beyond those general things, how you interact with a teacher will change as you advance. Adults have varied backgrounds and reasons for taking lessons. Our goals and understanding change as we advance because of what we learn and experience. There's a possible hiccup in this too, because kids actually change physically as they grow, and we don't.

To Brent:

In a sense, yes. It's the wrong kind of respect which puts the teacher on a pedestal. After all, they perform magic. Otoh, without having the lingo or the understanding we can actually put our foot in it and insult the poor man or woman because of how we end up wording our question. It is easy to ask about a technical thing, "Can you help me play this passage legato?" It is another if you feel something might be amiss - or missing - and you're trying to feel your way in.

I haven't really answered the question: I don't think I can. The only thing that has been clear to me is that somehow the idea of goals seems to be really important.

I had this attitude too at first but boy was I wrong to think so. Let me quote myself from the days I was just beginning:



What was I thinking?

This teacher turned out to be amazing and she prepared me for the music academy entrance exams in no time, she taught me theory and piano and she did a great job. She never for one second stopped treating me seriously. It was all in my head. I'm not saying there are no bad teachers but most of the time it's not as it seems and we need more patience.

Adult beginners should drop the attitude of I want it now, I am the customer and I know better, I pay you to give me a service, etc. Music is unlike anything else, so don't treat it like a bag of potatoes you bargain for at the local market.

My reaction may be odd. Maybe I just had a bad day.

But I wanted to GAG both of these people. The woman made me want to gag. What utter CRAP...

Exactly!

I am not convinced that adult beginners have that attitude. Maybe a few do, but not most.

I certainly haven't seen anything in this particular thread evincing the attitude Teodor describes. Music lesson are no "bag of potatoes" but then again they're not an off-the-rack One Size Fits All hat either.

Nothing in the world wrong with finding a teacher that suits your goals and learning style and it's certainly no insult to outline those goals in conversation with a (prospective) teacher and make a decision based on that discussion.

The real problem, as always, comes when people expect others to read their mind. If you are worried about or dissatisfied with the way your lessons are progressing, it's sheer foolishness to come online and ask for advice in dealing with a teacher when you haven't even mentioned your concerns to him or her. That's that part I don't get.

We should certainly let Teodor, himself, clarify his "sack of potatoes" post, or not, as he sees fit.

I interpreted his criticism to be against HIS OWN, self-proclaimed "wrong", attitide, from when he was first starting out with this teacher. (Of course, it reads not unlike many, MANY other, teacher critiques on this Forum.)

And let us not lose sight of what I think is THE MOST IMPORTANT part of his experience: While somewhat disappointed at the time, Teodor stuck with his teacher long enough for her to reveal her golden ability! (Or perhaps, long enough for him to see that ability in a clear light.)

Romantic that I am, I firmly believe that MOST music teachers have a rich storehouse of music and ability living inside them. The student needs to let the teacher open those doors when the time is "right".

I interpreted Teodor's post in the same way that you did LoPresti. I thought it was spot on in terms of its final message too.

My first teacher stopped teaching and I had to find a new one. It was very hard at first because my first teacher had allowed me to play some pretty tough (but incredibly musically gratifying) pieces (looking back on it, I was playing them pretty poorly). My second teacher felt that my first teacher had rushed things a bit. I had a lot of issues that she wanted me to work on and she thought that it would be easier to work on them with MUCH EASIER music (we are talking Bastien level 3 book with all of the kiddie pictures and silly titles). Fortunately, I trusted her and followed along with her program (I recall leaving lessons many a night feeling as though I were moving backwards). After a year with my teacher, I see her for the true gem that she is. My reading has improved, I am no longer 100% dependent upon looking at my hands when I play, and I am playing pieces that I find rewarding (for the most part, she has still assigned a clunker or two, but I play them).

The final sentence of your post sums it up nicely. As students, we need to recognize that our teachers might have a better sense of our pianistic development and what kind of feedback would be most useful at any particular stage than we do!