I did, but I was one of the lucky ones. My university job was great - the faculty got along and we got to work with some really great students. The pay wasn't the best, but it was on par with what my colleagues at peer institutions made.

I was speaking more generally about the current job market. In 1999 when I was first looking for a job, I applied for about a dozen out of over 20 open positions.

Talking to a friend the other day looking for a job, I hear that number of jobs open is less than half what it was a decade ago. Plus, to save money, colleges aren't advertising jobs as widely as they used to. Several years ago, you could check the MVL and that was enough. Nowadays, many colleges hire below the assistant professor level; sometimes interviewing and hiring based on word of mouth or advertising for a shorter length of time through other avenues like higheredjobs.com

Bringing this back to topic, we can definitely say that one challenge conservatories are facing is that they can no longer pretend to prepare students primarily for university or orchestral performance jobs - there just aren't enough out there. I'm pretty sure you could fill every university music vacancy this year with graduates from the state of Ohio (CCM, CIM, Oberlin, and the state universities - all of which are very good schools full of qualified people.)

The Eastman Initiatives have been ongoing for several years trying to think outside the standard conservatory box. NEC also has some fascinating things cooking:

http://necentrepreneur.posterous.com/

Oh, don't I know it. The pain of applying for jobs starts with actually finding a job that isn't in the boonies somewhere (I have family obligations) and doesn't automatically require a DMA or PhD for an assistant professorship teaching something like remedial theory or Solfege for Singers. As I do not have any of the aforementioned letters following my name, I aimed appropriately. Still, there's been a grand total of 4 positions open in my area, one of which is an applicant pool, another of which is DMA/PhD preferred, and the last two of which are part-time or online.

Right, back to the topic at hand: the other thread about Beethoven op. 10 no. 1 reminded me of what seemed like the standard freshman piano major repertoire. You enter in your freshman year, and if you do not have significant Beethoven sonatas on your repertoire list, you are automatically assigned op. 10 no. 1. Oh, I heard that modified Mannheim rocket figure some bajillion times that first year. I haven't studied it, personally, but I'm pretty sure I could give it a fair whack if I had to just because I've heard it so often and sat through umpteen master classes and studio classes featuring the first movement.

Along with your op. 10 no. 1 you will also be assigned something out of WTC 1 so long as it is not eb minor or bb minor. Everything else was game. Mine was Ab major. Then you'll probably be given either a Haydn sonata or, if you have sufficient Classical experience, something more modern. Prokofiev 2 maybe? Ginastera dances? At any rate, you do not pass go, you do not collect 200 dollars, and most importantly you do not touch Chopin your first semester unless you have demonstrated competency in other areas. Like Beethoven and Bach.

Does this experience resonate with anyone else?

Minaku, that last paragraph doesn't resonate with me.. I always chose my own repertoire and was playing Chopin before undergrad. I did Rach 2nd concerto in my first year too, and I think because of that my teacher never imposed repertoire on me.

Oh and Kreisler - not everyone lives on loans, I've always worked my ass off in order to live debt free. I still have debt, but it's tiny and it was all because of some left over tuition from undergrad.

Pogo, were your classmates doing the same as you? My experience may just be standard at music schools and not true conservatories.

Ah, being in a conservatory. I had mostly good experiences, some really awful ones, too. I was not a piano major, so I think it was a lot less competitive for me than for a pianist. I was in school for a long, long time, so I saw things change quite a bit. When I started, in the 1970s, there was still a lot of money out there funding music and other arts, so there were more jobs; there was no Internet, with videos of little kids playing virtuoso pieces; school itself was much less expensive, so you didn't have to mortgage your next 20 years to attend. By the time I finished, some 20 years later, even making a modest living as a musician (forget fame and fortune) seemed less possible. I know people do it, but I found it very stressful and finally gave up and got a day job.

As a cellist, I practiced 4 to 6 hours a day most of the time, and also had orchestra, chamber music, and gigs (weddings, freelancing, teaching, etc.). One's learning experience on the instrument was directly related to the competence of one's teacher, but I remember learning a lot from just being around other students and hearing them practice and perform. I would say that's the best benefit of going to a conservatory, plus the networking. The lessons themselves are just lessons -- there's no magic.

Even the people who were stars of the conservatory did not end up with stellar careers, necessarily. A few did, most didn't. The rest of us have just muddled along. I am consoling myself in my old age with playing the piano (noncompetitvely, of course) and keeping my cello playing going, too.

Lynn Harrell, the great solo cellist, was told by his teacher that he would at best become principal cellist of some orchestra.

I love it when the "madams" of the piano world promote themselves to God and make such absurd pronouncements.

"Teachers" who lose their tempers or demean students are expressing frustration at 1) not knowing what to say to help the student or 2} not having the kind of career they themselves wanted, or you name it. There is never an appropriate time to be inhuman, even if a particular student needs some motivational counseling.

At J. conservatory, the students of Mme. L. always won the concerto competition. It was expected; it was the norm. The student contestants expected it. Mme expected it. The entire school expected it. Yet, all of the teachers entered their students, pressing them into this futile exercise. X., a friend of mine who studied with Mr. F., prepared the concerto du jour, Mozart Coronation, to the exclusion of virtually all of his other repertoire. He was an obsessive/compulsive personality, as it seems many of the students were in those days (probably still are) and prepared as if his life depended on it. He told me he didn't want to disappoint Mr. F, but I know from other conversations that his unsupportive parents figured in the mix. His mother once visited his room near the school and pronounced it the product of a sick mind. Well, X. told me, maybe this time a different teacher would produce the winning performer. Wouldn't that be an upheaval. Maybe Mr. F. would get the respect he deserves.

The piano faculty assembled, along with Maestro J.M. and his conducting staff. The students congregated in the corridors, where they waited for their time to audition. Some, of course, would be in the practice rooms up to the last possible minute; X. was one of these. As a graduate student, I was somewhat above the fray. I'd lived enough to know that life didn't depend on only one performance, or on any one event, unless that event included being run over by a bus.

X. appeared on the scene just seconds before his appointed time. I was there to listen from outside, as he had asked, and gave him my best thumbs-up smile. He played like an angel. They let him play the entire concerto through, including the cadenzas, which I took to be a good sign. I waited by the stage entrance to congratulate him but when the door opened X. ran right past me muttering "I missed a note, I missed a note" over and over all the way to the men's room, where he vomited violently. X. played like an artist, suffered terribly and the winning contestant did not come from the studio of Mr. F. that year.

It is easier said than done.

[/quote]

This is an important discussion, even if it goes somewhat astray of the OP's topic.

We can probably assume that in the current economic situation all sorts of job categories have diminished. Even in the medical profession there are difficulties. My cardiologist (yes, that's how old I am) is closing his practice here and seeking opportunities elsewhere.

Just as a point of interest, when I was hired at the University of Texas, the chairman told me they had 120 applicants and that one of them, a Juilliard graduate with a child, offered to work for room and board. That was in 1981. So, the competition has always been fairly stiff. I suppose what I hope to convey is this: It is not possible to predict the outcome of a particular area of study. I tell students they should only study music if they can't not study music. If there's something else they excel in and enjoy that will produce a reliable income, then by all means they should consider doing that. But if they prepare well, chances are they will find a niche somewhere, though perhaps not the one they had envisioned.

The hiring process these days can be, as you suggest, somewhat arbitrary. This, I think, is good reason to get out and be seen, heard and to network. Many times a college will take someone they know or of whom they've heard or who is prominent in the area with an established local reputation as a teacher/performer. (This is a good reason to do graduate work in the area where a student would like to make his/her home.} I've witnessed this often, even though colleges are required to advertise and be equal opportunity employers. In my experience on search committees, I know we hired by the book. And more recently, since retiring, I've taken on some adjunct college teaching, hired also done by the book. But I think, as a rule these days, word of mouth comes close to being the norm.

Yeah pretty much the same, although .. Hmm.. A lot of teachers like to suggest repertoire, but I hate that. I like playing what I love, and I think I'm good at selecting repertoire. Now when I have to put a concert program together I don't have to run to my teacher for help, I just do it myself.

As a teacher, I love it when the student takes initiative in selecting repertoire, even if I think the particular choice might be a reach. Sometimes a motivated student can achieve a great deal. On the other hand, a wrong choice can become overwhelming when what we want is a challenge.

Regarding the original topic about life at a conservatory:

First and foremost, pianists are obsessed with faculty. It goes beyond a topic of conversation, beyond gossip, and becomes an absolute fetishization. The concept of "who studies with who". What helps fuel this is that certain teachers do tend to have certain types of students. For instance, there always seems to be the one teacher who has all the very best pianists in the school. Then there is the teacher who tends to have the weakest pianists in the school. Then there is the teacher who has only asian girls. There is the teacher who has curiously little asian girls. Then there is the famous artist-in-resident teacher who only has one-or-two students who are curiously neither here nor there. Then there is the teacher with all the chill students....the list goes on and on...

As far as the competitive aspect goes, it is there, inevitably, and people do talk about each other behind their backs, but I can't say there was ever any hardcore, cut-throat vibes that were going around, at least they were not in the mainstream. The urban legend of people putting razor blades between piano keys to slice other pianists' fingers is and always has been just that - a legend.

Accompanying can be annoying. (A plight only pianists can ever understand). While is is perfectly fun and enriching to work on an instrumental sonata or play in a chamber group, what is NOT so fun is (by way of obligation from the school or your own being too nice), is to suddenly find yourself in a position where you need to play an entire violin sonata or concerto within a few days to a week, and everything else in your life (solo music, academics, sleep, peace of mind) gets put on hold.

Lastly, it is a culture that is structured around practice. The concept and act of practicing is what spurs all other things to come. Relationships (romantic or friendly), more likely than not begun with two people meeting in, outside, or around a practice room, on a practice break, or were initiated by a conversation regarding what somebody had just been practicing. All social and academic obligations take a backseat to how much practice was done during the day.

That's what I have for now..I'm sure more will come.

At some schools, particularly in the US, tuition is so expensive that it doesn't matter how much you work your ass off, not taking out loans is just not an option. (we're talking about 30-50K a year)

Learning from everybody was a great part of my experience in music school, too. It was amazing, all the stuff one picked up. Even overhearing what others were doing in the practice rooms could be educational.



I vaguely remember an article about the huge percentage of Juilliard students who end up with careers outside of music (IIRC, this didn't include the piano students because they didn't have the data on them). It seemed kind of insane, that people would put themselves through all that, only to end up being something other than a music professional. I've heard similar stories from another conservatory, too - that the jobs after graduation simply do not exist for a large chunk of their students.

I agree. That's where full scholarships and grants come in.

Curious, indeed, is the teacher who has little Asian girls!

My recollections of undergrad especially are warm. Where else could you do what you love for 12 hours a day, hang out with the nicest people, and retire to your apartment with yet another 5 musicians. Ahh...the life of a piano major. There was a stratification. Applied majors always had preference. We all got extra lessons when teachers were so inclined, though they might have been scheduled as late as 11:00 PM. We also got babysitting duties, housesitting duties, pool cleaning duties and were actually paid for same. We also entertained visiting concert pianists. Some were well-known, some less so. We had lots of visiting artists, mainly because one of our faculty had studied all over the world seeking out first rate teachers and had gotten to know many younger pianists doing the same thing. It was kind of a neat thing because some had teaching gigs as well and so they got to play programs here there and everywhere for an honorarium if you will.This greatly enhanced our ability to be exposed to lots of literature and loads of masterclasses. We also had some bigger stars give performances, among them Van Cliburn, Nelson Freire, John Browning, John Ogdon, Raphael Orozco, Susan Starr. Some of these gave masterclasses as well. I remember playing the Beethoven Op.57 for Nelson Freire. I don't know if he ever recovered.I was not at my best. Socially we all knew eachother and were active. We put on spaghetti feasts for 30 at a time in our apartment with wine and lasagna as well. Two of my roomates are still close friends. We just vacationed in the Dominican Republic with one of my roomates and his wife, and we just performed at another roomate's son's wedding.

Grad school was great, studying with one of the great teachers, an honor really and learning so much. It all came to an end rather suddenly, especially when I went seeking jobs at 4 year colleges only to find that there were only two openings and they both required someone with 25 years teaching experience and someone that had played with major symphonies. My impression was that I had been running 100mph in the wrong direction. If I had it all to do again, as long as I was spending ridiculous amounts of time in study, I might as well have become an M.D. Then at least there would have been a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. I have supplemented teaching with piano rebuilding, and there is still nothing I enjoy more than accompanying my fabulous soprano wife doing The Four Last Songs of Richard Strauss.

Oh, despite a well-reviewed appearance with a major symphony, my soprano wife diversified her career into Information Technology. That produced over the last 25 years a stable career with very decent benefits. I think in a previous post I had made the point that post-grad 10 years, 70% of Juilliard grads are no longer involved with music. It is a salient point that most of us would like to pretend is not a reality. There is a lot of time and sometimes a decent amount of money involved in this endeavor. I think we all need to be a bit more pragmatic about what we decide to major in.

Being pragmatic ?

I'm not a conservatory student yet (well actually where I study music is called a Conservatoire à Rayonnement Régional but that's not really the same as in America), but reading all those stories about how it works, how you work, with whom, etc... just makes me anrgy about me... for not having begun music earlier and being able to go to study in an Hochschüle or whatever right now, at 18.
No matter how I'll actually end (well, I plan on studying at least guitar and composition until at least master degree), I'm just happy to think of what will come next.

John Pels, you talked about "running 100mph in the wrong direction" but reading all those stories confirm the fact that studying intensely music, or arts, or science if it's what one love, is ten thousand times more satisfying than just studying to hopefully get a well-paid job.
The lives of many persons of my age, and I see it, is about studying something not really interesting (at least for them), hanging out with peoples like them, mainly for getting drunk/stoned/laid, and... that's all.
Being pragmatic might well be studying music if you love it and not waste your young years in studying commerce or law or medicine because you've been told to...

Anyway, thanks for this thread - it's great.



(btw, how is my english ? please tell me if there's something really shocking about how I write. Thanks)

In some ways it's still the same there, John!

I'm not a conservatory student so feel free anyone to correct the following. But I have been in a few conservatory frequently (lunch time concerts etc) and occasionally I play a piano there. I will discuss two here, an old and a new conservatory.

Usually there are a number of larger rooms with a grand in it, and a lot of small rooms (say, 3 by 4 meter at best) with usually an upright; but some of these also have a grand. The small rooms have no windows and some cheap fluorescent lighting. The larger rooms sometimes have a window with day light.

The largest rooms are frequently used for concerts, and usually have a pretty decent grand in it. Usually they a few small recital rooms, say 16 by 16 meters and about 20 to 30 chairs, and one large concert room with maybe 200 seats and a stage for a full (medium size) orchestra.

In the older conservatory, the rooms are not airconditioned, worn out carpet, a few very old chairs, maybe plain wood or cheap plastic. Even the big recital room is pretty dark and a bit worn out.
The newer conservatory have much better room outfit. I have not been in a small practice room of the newer conservatory. But the recital room looks just good, has good lighting and is high; and the big concert hall looks great, good lighting, finished with wood, slanted panels for acoustics, colored panels, pluche seats and all, and sounds great as well.

In the old conservatory, some rooms have two uprights in them. Often the uprights are crappy. Crappy means a few sticking or dead notes, several very weird sounding notes in the high treble region or deep bass, maybe one of the pedals not working, and sometimes even some ivories are missing from the keys.
Usually they are pretty badly in need for tuning. I think my piano at home would sound like that only if I would not tune it for more than a year.

In the older conservatory, usually you can hear the noises from the other rooms, particularly if you are in one of the small rooms. Trumpets and other brass are heard best but violins are surprisingly wall piercing as well I would have a hard time to do serious study there. The newer conservatory seem to have better sound isolation.

My impression is that the old conservatory once in a while buy a few new pianos, and move the older ones to the lesser rooms. They probably only buy new grands, I've never seen a new upright in the old conservatory. The newest upright there was probably 30 years old or so :|

Praeludium, congrats on a good grasp of the language. I think that you need to be open to the possibility that anyone can have a passion for more than one thing. One can also be quite competent at more than one thing. When I decided to major in music, I had been playing already for 13 years, so it seemed like the logical thing to do (getting back to that going 100 mph in the wrong direction). Personally, I don't think that it is really possible to make such a life decision at the tender age of 18. You REALLY need to become more exposed to more disciplines. I am having this exact problem with my son who is now 26. He already got a university degree, but wasn't convinced that he was ready to jump into a career in what he majored in. He then joined the Navy. He has another year yet to serve and then reality will once again demand that he make some kind of decision. His experience in the armed services has opened his mind to other possibilities that he intends to pursue after he leaves the service, most notably he intends to go back to college and get a master's and then get on with his life in something peripheral to his original degree. I think that it is very difficult to know yourself well enough at a young age to make such a decision and yet we do make them for better or sometimes for worse. Music is a fabulous "siren" if you will, but sometimes you need to avoid her call and think of other possibilities that might render a more comfortable lifestyle. I usually recommend to my students that they minor in music, and pick something else that they also have an interest in that will generally yield a more lucrative salary.

You also need to consider the financial state of the world these days. Europe's economies are destined to get worse, and the USA will not be far behind especially if we don't get the idiots in Washington to stop spending money that we don't have.

You can pursue virtually any career and still retain your passion for music and continue to increase your competence indefinitely.

So clearly you think having money is more important than doing what you love. Look, I'm by no means rich. Sometimes, I barely make rent and I definitely don't shop for clothes or make up or bags often. But I'm HAPPY and I absolutely LOVE what I do - I don't care that I can't afford to live in a nice place. But I do care that I'm able to play music every day and look forward to performances and learning and being inspired and living a life that - for me - has a lot of meaning.

People should do what THEY want and what drives them and what they love; not listen to someone's random opinions.

absolutely +1, pogo,

I don't think John's advice is bad, even for you Pogo. Now, what I mean is, had a teacher of yours given you that advice, I am sure it would not have dissuaded you from what you are doing, and I think part of becoming a professional classical musician has to be the feeling that you simply have no choice.

That makes sense Keith. I asked my teacher in undergrad to give me his completely honest opinion if I was good enough to stay in music - i had a bit of a crisis back then - and he said yes. I believed him because he'd told several other of his students to look into other fields, so I figured he would have been honest.

I understand what you're saying - and why you're saying it -, John Pels.
But the rational behind it is a little bit one-sided ; it take in account the problem of the comfort, but doesn't solve many other things...

Just the other day I was talking with my roommate (a singer in graduate studies, who wants to enter the performance field). She was having some financial troubles due to unplanned car repairs added to audition expenses, and said she was finding it hard to wait until the time when she didn't have to worry so much about him, like her brother who is an engineer. The first thing that entered my mind is that people are not advised to take a career in music performance unless they can't do without it, because it will likely always be hard to make a living off of it. At the least it will never be financially as easy as her brother's. Of course, I didn't tell her that.


John Pels - do you regret your decision to study music in school? From what you described it was a wonderful time in your life, and one that I would hate for you to have missed due to choosing a more practical field.

It is 1000X easier to make money from working as regular office workers than making money as a musician or an artist. If one can secure a position in an orchestra, it is good, because it is an equivalent to having a job at a normal company. The problem, however, it is way harder to secure a position in an orchestra because there are very few orchestras.

To me if one is not very good, one is better just play music for fun. If one needs to ask her professor whether she is good enough or not to stay in music, it is a clear indication that she is a mediocre musician. Even people who are very good musicians have hard time to make money from music. The mediocre ones will, for sure, suffer financially. Many people are in denial, they really love music and want to stay in music, even though they barely have the skill to do so.

I think people who make money from other sources and play music for the love of it are MUCH happier than the wanna be professional artists. The reason is that these people have enough money and accept the reality. On the other hand, wanna be musicians, they do not have money, and cannot accept the reality. It is such a miserable life, isn't it? Unfortunately, it is a human nature. People do know that they have miserable life, but, for any reason, they do not want to get out of it. Don't know why? Pride, laziness???