G Major has Fa-Sharp.
F Major has Ti-Flat etc…
I had a new interview student from Y*M*H*school, he learn everything in Do-Re-Mi. He has been playing for two years. However, this is what he told me when I ask him about the key signature as above. Is this normal? I thought that school teach literary everything in Do Re Mi, so,
Sol Major has Fa Sharp
Fa Major has Ti-Sharp etc…..
What is the norm of learning in Do Re Mi instead of ABC?

He is mixing the two systems. Not good...

Hey, join the club!

Most (semi-intelligent) students make the transition to ABC with no problem. But there are students who never cease to amaze me how many things they've been taught wrong. Solfege is a useful system in many ways, if taught correctly in the first place. If.

Give that student a few months, then you may be in a world of shock how far back you'd have to reach in order to make everything right. I'm still reaching with some of these kids.

Sounds like he learned fixed DO instead of moveable DO. (Why I don't know! Moveable DO has advantages but for fixed DO you might as well use the alphabet)

Let him know you call DO "C" etc and go from there.

Me neither! Moveable DO makes more sense to me simply for the purpose of understanding transposition.

You have to understand that giving the notes letter-names (which we do in English) is not universal. In French, the names are:do (C), ré, mi, fa sol, la si do.

Spanish, Italian, and many other languages also use the same terminology.

I teach in English or French, and insist that students use the correct names for the notes in the language we are using. For example, if they speak in English, they use A B C, but if they speak in French, they must use do ré mi. This is the only way to be able to work with anglophones or francophones anywhere in the world.

It sounds like this student is mixed up between English and French.

Where I live (on the boundary between Ontario and Québec), we change languages and provinces many times in the day!

Hope this helps.

Laurie -- you beat me to it. I was going to say that I teach students from the Eastern Hemisphere (and many Latin Countries in the Western Hemisphere) and most of those students learn in fixed Do. When I teach those students, I have to teach in fixed Do also but I try to get them to move to the movable Do system since that is what most Universities teach in here (should they go to Univ)

Fixed do is the way many students learn their notes in East Asia and Europe. It's not worse than movable.

We learn fixed do because it's a lot better to sing do re mi than ABC. Those syllables were crafted for singing first and foremost and unlike awful letters that end in long E sounds, treat the vocal mechanism much better. Imagine trying to sing a high G untrained with a long E! Horrid! Sol is far better.

My undergraduate university taught in fixed do for European market accessibility. My graduate university used movable do. My high school used movable. YMMV. I would personally rather teach fixed do than letters, because the letters are so awful for singing.

This thread is not about debating over the merits of which solfege system to teach. Fixed do and movable do are both equally valid. It is unfortunate that these systems somehow use the same set of syllables, which adds to the confusion that already exists, especially for kids! Using the letter-name system is useful for keyboard students who are not going to sing; in fact, it is simpler and FAR easier to teach without the distraction of solfege.

The problem the OP experiences is unique to this particular situation, and it has plagued many teachers (myself included) who are trying to undo the confusion. For most kids switching to ABC is not a problem. Most kids. But some kids' brains are not wired to be flexible, and the more confusion we present to these kids, the more they will struggle.

Well, in solfege many syllables end in a long E. mi, ti, and if you go to the chromatic notes, si, fi and whatever people use in their unique solfege system. The problem singing letter names is with the sharps and flats.

Mi and si have long Es on purpose - thirds and sevenths need to be kept high naturally, and the long E is easier to sing sharper than other vowels. Personally, I don't make any distinction between sharps or flats in fixed do. I just know. Do di re ri mi etc. are more for movable do.

Edit: Original ut re mi didn't have the accidental syllables either.

mi and ti will always be 3rd and 7th in movable do, but only 1 out of 12 times in fixed do.

I'm not sure it's about solfege at all.

It's not about solfege. It's about students being confused by multiple ways of naming pitches.

And until fake books start coming out with mi m7 chords, written, I'll stick to letters...

I don't see what the problem is. He's let you know he knows the key signature for 2 scales. That's all.

He says Fa Sharp, You say F#. You say "potaaa-to", I say "potah-to" type issue. You might say that you refer to notes using the music alphabet and ask if he is familiar with it. Or ask him to play all the G's and see what he does.

The two of you will simply need to use the same language.

It appears to me that you are missing something.

I interpret the Fa-Sharp as meaning the 4th tone of the major scale - sharped, not F-sharped.

I interpret the Ti-Flat as the 7th tone of the major scale - Flatted.

And with that interpretation it follows that the statement G Major has Fa-Sharp is incorrect. I believe what it should be is G Major has Ti-Sharp (the 7th tone sharped, in this case F).

Also, the other statement ... F Major has Ti-Flat should be F Major has Fa-Flat (the 4th tone of the major scale).

If I am misreading this please enlighten me.

The student would be using fixed Do, in which case Fa is F, and Fa sharp is F#. If he were thinking in movable do, then he wouldn't be "sharping" anything, because Ti is the 7th degree note of a major scale which already has the right intervals because that is what movable Do reflects.


Again, if the student is using fixed Do, the Ti is B, so Ti Flat is Bb. In movable Do Fa is the fourth degree note of the major scale and it would not need to be flatted as before.

The student is mixing two systems for naming pitches.

I said this, second post:

But that was inaccurate, because now we are up to three systems. And there are more.

Some people learn moveable do with altered vowels, which is what I saw taught but did not use.

Thus C D E F G would be do re mi fa so(l).

But C D Eb F G Ab B C would be something like this: do re *ma* fa so *le* ti do.

ALL the systems have advantages and disadvantages. As for this one, with the altered vowels, it appeals to me THEORETICALLY, since it more closely approaches what happens with Roman numerals.

I teach fixed DO solfege for all of my beginning students. I've used it for nearly 30 years now and I love the results. I love the fact that my students sing the notes of every song they play while playing that song (even 4 year olds). Solfege is the key to why training the ear is so easy.

I teach similarly to what the OP posted: students learn that the Key of C is DO thru DO, no sharps/flats; G has a fa-sharp, F has a ti-flat, etc.... Around the 3rd-4th year of the program they will easily translate DO to being the note C, and so on.... There's nothing strange or confusing about it (unless they are learning an additional instrument and taught letter names at the same time).

I think the point of confusion is the mixing of names. Why not "Sol major has Fa sharp"? Why are notes (pitches) called both Sol and G?

Yes. This is the same thing that bothers me, the total inconsistency. And by the way, IF I used solfege syllables, I would use "so", not "sol". The consonant on the end is inconsistent.

Not sure if this was addressed to me, but in my studio here is no confusion. I tell kids that the Key of G starts on 'sol', Key of C on 'do', and so on. When I teach chords I tell them that a C chord is 'do-mi-sol'. Kids will accept what you tell them. I don't call the pitches by letter names. Later, when we incorporate letter names for the staff notes, it's easy for them to see the connection between the solfege and letter names.

The word 'sol' has a silent L; it's pronounced SO but spelled SOL.

I was not talking about the pronunciation. I was saying that the "written" form has the consonant, which is of no importance for people who are only SAYING the syllable but is a possible "gotcha" for people who see it.


In my teaching I always aim for less confusion. If there were NO confusion, ever, I would be a perfect teacher.

Do you use this method with all your students, or just the very young ones?

I start immediately with the grand staff, but I start teaching reading from the very beginning and do not work with people who are unable to process that information, with the help of a parent in the room. I sounds to me that you do a lot of work with children much younger than my students. Usually about five is as young as I start them.

Maybe you did a good job making the connection for the students. We need more teachers like you.

Unfortunately, there are many students who are lost in the transition. My local colleagues and I have them in our studios.

If they can sing "Do, re, mi, fa, so" why can't they sing "C, D, E, F, G"? Then they won't have to make any transition. One set of syllables, another set of syllables. Why be complicated?

Wow, I must admit ... I have never heard of any of this ... thank heaven.

Ezpiano.org doesn't seem to be saying that the student is in any way confused, just that he (ezpiano.org) is a surprised.

That is right. The student did not seem to be confused. I am surprised and confused. I wonder if the student will start to be confuse if he has to take CM test, let's say Level 2 with no Do Re Mi at all.
If the purpose to teach in fixed Do to young beginner is to encourage singing, will the first year students play in G Major position? Will they sing in Sol La Ti Do Re? Or Do Re Mi Fa So in the G Major position?

For G Major:

Fixed Do = sol la ti re do

Moveable Do = do re mi fa sol