This is likely a misrepresentation. And I don't think that music teachers are so special that they warrant a kind of blind trust. Like any dyadic relationship, there are a host of variables involved. Not all teachers and students are a good match, so it is entirely OK to have a healthy dose of skepticism when finding or working with a teacher. Of course, I agree that there is a quick-fix mentality in our society, though "impatience" is not the only explanation for such a widespread phenomenon.

But part of the problem is that many students have no way of knowing whether the teacher deserves the trust they are required to give. In your situation it turned out great. But what if it turns out that a teacher really is not a good fit for the student? How long should they continue with the teacher in order to determine that? Six months? A year? Five years?

Wouldn't it be so much easier if students who have doubts about their teacher's approach would just ask what the plan is behind it. If they don't understand why they are being given certain assignments, or don't see the point of an exercise, or don't feel like they are learning anything from a piece, the teacher should be able and happy to explain why they are doing things the way they are. That can help the student decide whether they trust that teacher and want to invest the time it takes to follow their plan.

Of course, if we put teachers "on a pedestal", it's much more difficult to have those kinds of conversations.

I did think that Teodor was thinking mainly of his own story, and should have made that thought clear. Sorry about that, Teo. At the same time, I remember how timid I was when I started lessons and how ready to feel I was doing something wrong. It is ok to ask dumb questions or have silly worries, and sometimes those worries can even lead to something that needs clearing up. Don't be shy to ask them.

So far one scenario has been proposed primarily. In it, an older student is impatient for fast visible results and progress. He may also try to impose what pieces he learns and how he's taught. Ok, that's real and does happen.

But it also happens that a student is ready to do the work and is given random pieces with no thought behind it, no real feedback or guidance. Or that the teaching caters toward common wishes of moving fast while sacrificing what's needed, each time with the student not knowing what is happening - and other scenarios. And all too common reaction is to feel guilty for a sense of unease, and "untalented" for lack of progress. Look up "transfer student" in this site. That is why it is ok to ask dumb questions, go off on wrong tangents while finding your way. Eventually it can lead to good communication and new pathways, including with the present teacher if as is common it's a misunderstanding of goals.

Well, Lain, I am certain we are destined to continue thinking differently about the subject, and probably because of our past experiences.

Obviously, not all student/teacher pairings are ideal. Some, I am sure, are a terrible match, and need to be changed. But on this Forum, I am reading a variety of juvenile complaints, not dealing with fundamental teacher/student issues, but trivial details. Many are in the form of second-guessing the teacher's recommendations or methods.

In that on-going, one-to-one relationship we are discussing, your "host of variables" is absolutely there; but there is also a common constant: The teacher is an expert, and the student is not. Until the student becomes an expert, there is learning to be done.

Incidentally, thanks for our Word-of-the-Day!
Ed

Years (many years!) ago, I had a view from the other side of this table. I was never reluctant to discuss my rationale for choosing a piece on which to work, or why I assigned a particular exercise for practice, or how come I was recommending a particular artist for careful listing. This is all part of the teaching. However, if any of those discussions turned into serious questioning, with overtones of doubt, I typically avoided any further answers, because they then became justifications. I let my students draw their own conclusions about the effectiveness of what we were doing -- the ultimate justification.

Asking questions is fine, but your “trust” of your teacher should be based upon results, not upon the answers to a few questions, the rationale of which the beginner probably does not understand anyway.

Ed

Mr. KeyString,

Taking “poetic license”, I have distilled a couple of your posts here into a single listing above, holding (for me) your most salient points on setting goals. I am a big believer in having a “direction” when working on music, and your sage advice on setting student/teacher goals plots that direction.

However, almost immediately, we have another potential problem: Unless the student is somewhat advanced, it will be the responsibility of the teacher to select material that will fulfill the goals we just set. It will be that teacher’s job to say, “You need more work on scales.”, or “I wouldn’t revert to such easy pieces for sight reading.” Isn’t it still the providence of the teacher to advise, “I know (your goal) was to perform this on Saturday, but the piece is simply not ready.”?

So, while we might have an agreed-upon set of goals, it is still the responsibility of the teacher to guide the activities, and evaluate the progress. Unless I am missing something, this STILL requires a high level of faith on the part of the student that the teacher is acting in their interest.

Additional thoughts?

Ed

Ed, before I answer in another spate of verbosity, I am thinking that perhaps we may be missing each other in the type of "goals" I was trying to address under that word. This is contained in the (unfortunately largish) posts I wrote before, and it is linked to the types of goals that might be wrongly assumed and then taught toward. Would you mind having a look and/or mentioning what you understand under the word? It is crucial to this conversation. I suspect we have missed each other simply from the fact that you have written of a "goal" to perform a piece on a given date.

We have corresponded enough that I do not believe we are very far apart in our meaning of musical goals.

Clearly, music is ripe with live performance deadlines, and those are sort of externally imposed goals. I probably should not have even included that as one in my examples above.

But we are discussing early students here, and their goals are going to be more like
"I would like to play simple Chopin pieces."
"I would like to be able to hear a song on the radio (do they still have radios?), and play it on the piano."
"I would like to get through these baby songs, and start real pieces".
"I would like to be able to construct basic chords in real-time".
"I would like to be able to play a simple song the first time I see it."
And maybe even, "I would like to play a couple of Christmas Carols before January is over."

As you well know, these translate into various activities and musical materials that will be needed. And I am certain you know where I am headed from there . . . . .
Ed

Adults learn differently than children. Children are at a stage of learning where acquiring discipline and obedience are perhaps as important as learning a new instrument. Your expert/novice model fits perfectly here.

However, it breaks down if the novice is an adult, and there is no longer a clear dominant/subordinate relationship. In many cases, the student may be older than the teacher. Or, the student may be an expert in another field. All of this is to say that the student, owing to age and experience, has every right to question the type of learning he or she is receiving. And I will argue that the adult does not have to possess a substantial music knowledge base to question his or her teacher. For instance, we don't need to know that Mozart intended a certain passage to be played staccato in order to spot a teacher who is "expert" at music but also condescending, inconsiderate, charges too much, has trouble communicating his or her ideas, or in reality musically incompetent (consider concertgoers and music critics).

Even teachers are not infallible when it comes to selecting music repertoire. Plus, there are countless resources on the Internet such as this forum to get a second-opinion on what a teacher suggests.

So, what you call "second-guessing", I see it as adults being critical of their time and money. And what you call "juvenile complaints", I consider evidence of adults actually processing and interacting with what they are being taught, instead of being spoon-fed like a child.

I find this view more liberating, and it certainly is colored by my own experiences. Having learned both as a child and an adult, I find my lessons now much more enjoyable. Why? Because I can challenge my teacher, ask for second opinions, and set my own goals and expectations. I am not bound to the opinion of an "expert" whose musical percepts are likely not inclusive of my own experiences and learning in other fields; music can be interdisciplinary. Music is also deeply personal; I am an expert in my own right because of the way in which I interpret and experience music. That said, I still keep my mouth shut most of the time, because my teacher happens to be incredibly knowledgeable and considerate of my learning goals.

Great post, Lain! I wasn't capable of the kind of behavior you describe you are with your teacher when I tried lessons as an adult 15 years ago--still felt like that little kid with that teacher who was "condescending, inconsiderate, charged too much, had trouble communicating his ideas...", yet still expecting to be told what to do and anxious about not being able to do it right. I might try private lessons one more time just to see if it would now be possible to experience something like what you describe.

Well said, indeed!!!!

Yes I was merely talking about my own initial attitude.

Going on with the goals theme:

In order to be able to do anything, a student has to learn how to physically play the instrument, which means basic technical things like how to sit, move, get control of touch, timing etc. There is the ability to read notes, possibly produce chords and notes by ear, and hopefully some understanding of the workings of music - and be able to use all these things.

It is possible that a student is aware of this and his stated goal may be "piano skills and knowledge". Or the goal might be "To play pieces x, y & z". Hopefully the teacher will want to form those foundations in his student in either case. So you could say that it doesn't matter if a student only aims for favorite pieces. But we cannot assume that the teacher will do these things, or even teach well. It is important for us to have some understanding and not just walk in hoping it will go as it should. There are too many pitfalls in the "teaching adults" world. So even where there is your proposed "I would like to be able to play a simple song the first time I see it." it should include "and get the skills I'll need to get there."

You have written:

Such wishes are even assumed when they are not stated. A few years ago the ABF did two surveys. The kinds of wishes we (incl. early students) stated here went beyond the type of things in your examples.

In any case, this is not the kind of goal that I meant initially.

As you wrote:

But will this be given?

I'm closer to Lain here. I've taught a whole lot of adults several different subjects at the novice/beginner level. The ones I enjoy the most, and in fact the majority of students, are the ones that ask questions and bring their life experiences to bear on their learning. They can take their experiences ski racing or rock climbing and apply them to learning piano - or math, for that matter. I may know a whole lot more math than they do, or piano, but I don't know everything about their learning, and sometimes they approach math or piano in a way that *I* learn from. I love it. The "I'm the expert, you're the ignorant one" doesn't factor into it. The person I learned most from when I was rock-climbing was distinctly an expert. His teaching was distinctly collaborative and information-sharing, not "I'm the expert and you can be the subordinate one." It's a different attitude. It's much what I prefer.

To me, it seems obvious that the ABF is going to get more original posts with questions about teachers than original posts about student/teacher relationships from people who don't have questions about their teachers. So yes, the percentage of those with questions is bigger. It also, as I said earlier, seems to me that what people are doing is gathering information. "Hey, I'm new at piano lessons - is this normal? Are there other models?" It makes sense to me And often there *are* different models. Some of them work for one person, and some for another. I'm not the right teacher for everyone, either, tho usually just about everybody can learn *something* from me. And I from them.

As for me being someone who is already playing, as LoPresti characterized me from an earlier post, well, I only had two years of piano, in my early teens, and believe me I wasn't making music when I was done I certainly had finger dexterity, and I could translate sheet music into sounds from the piano. And that was it. I had a lot to learn.

And 35 years later, after not playing that while, I've learned all that I've learned without formal lessons. I've learned from mandolin players. I've learned from dance callers. I've learned from sinking-or-swimming in jam sessions and having someone whisper "the B part is in Dm". I've learned from my bass-playing brother. I for sure haven't learned from playing classical music or playing lots of scales

Would that process work for everyone? Of course not. And I don't advocate everyone doing it. It's a different model, and it's worked for me. But as I said earlier, I have no problem at all with people asking about the way their current model is working. I have no problem with them asking about it here before they ask their teacher about it, if they have a teacher As I say, it just seems like information-gathering to me. Like my friend with brain cancer that searches the internet in addition to asking their radiologist. I'm all for it if that helps them.

That's *my* experience. Other's experience is different. But I'm closer to Lain and Starr Keys in the way I see the posts than I am to LoPresti. Not that anyone couldn't tell that

Cathy

Lain, I am not certain how children got thrown into this mix. In that ADULT student/teacher relationship, of which everyone else is writing here, there is, by definition, a musical expert, and someone who is not. If that is not the case, then we have a different sort of relationship.

I might have a high level of expertise in aerodynamics, but that does not qualify me to select, or even discuss, Alfred’s over Faber.

Ed

I threw it in there, because what you are saying seems more appropriate for children than adults.



I wonder if there can be some flexibility here? The kind of reasoning and critical thinking skills you acquire in one field is certainly transferable to other fields. Can I not consult someone else's expertise on this forum and ask about Alfred versus Faber? Or, if I find the music tremendously dull, is it not appropriate to ask if there might be another set of exercises that are of equal import but with a different, perhaps more jaunty, style to my liking? I also wrote, earlier:



Even concertgoers and music critics, who are not experts of the art they are observing, have a right to voice their opinions. Why not students? (This is an analogy, of course, so I am not condoning a lack of deference towards one's teacher.)

This thread is so uptight, serious, judgmental and curmudgeon like it is hard to believe it has anything at all to do with something as joyful as the piano and music. Just my ever so uneducated, neophyte, proletariat point of view.

Thanks for illustrating my point!

Yep. All we need is someone complaining about use of "song vs. piece" and it would be complete.

I suspect it boils down to a few too many teachers not explaining "what, why, and how" to their students added to a few too many students expecting instant gratification.

Suggested sound track for the thread: Wagner with a touch of Chopin.

Well, it appears we may have beaten this poor subject to death! If nothing else good comes out of this, perhaps a few individuals will read the thread a bit, and consider, before posting.

Speriamo di si.
Ed

It hasn't even started.

Remaining in silence and confusion is not a good idea. Some of us have lost years by doing just that. That is not to say that unthinking knee-jerk reactions are a good thing. But in the past, all the dumb things I wondered about, I wish I had written more of them while I was still lost.

Baggage.

So much baggage.

Its a wonder we ever learn anything.

This, in fact, is my starting point. Lessons require the right efforts of both student and teacher and it works in synergy. But we have to look at the teacher part first, because it starts with his guidance.

Most good and experienced teachers can tell you of transfer students and the damage they have to undo from poor teaching. A portion of this will be due to the student not having followed instructions. But there are also obvious things like a student who can't read notes after 2 years, and finger numbers written in all the music over all the notes always.

Some causes of teacher-related problems:
a) incompetence in understanding piano technique, or music, or how to teach, separately or in combination
b) inability to communicate with this particular student ("good fit" or what I call the sock syndrome )
c) teaching toward what is desired / the market wants, while ignoring what is needed (skills etc.)
d) believing adults are hobbyists who want to play around rather than learn, and teaching that way

In cases b, c, d, the student needs to be informed, to have some idea of the goals behind the goals so to say - and then communicate these to the teacher. You are assuming a skilled teacher who will work toward what is needed. If that always happened, things would be simple. First the thing you are assuming has to be there. THEN we can go on to the other things.

In these scenarios, either the expertise doesn't exist, or because of assumed goals, it is not being used as it could be. I think you'll agree that if any of this is going on, it needs to be addressed. A student can only follow what is being taught.

It is a difficult proposition. For example, we may think someone is a good teacher because his students "advance fast" and not know what has been left out. The one with kids who play brilliantly in recitals may focus on three pieces a year, heavily choreographed. Will you know what to look for?

Still mostly on the first idea:

This is absolutely true. But it shouldn't be about that either. However, you might be aware of what types of goals the "adult methods" address, and which the "children's" address. If your teacher knows your mindset, then the choice will be made accordingly unless it is a knee jerk reaction to use a book labeled "adult" for adults. To me it comes down to (real) goals. After that the choice is generally teacher's according to his expertise as you say. (The first element at the start of this post being as it should be.)

I answered half of your question, and not even the part that you tried to emphasize.

... and in the same vein, the the examples of goals such as learning to play easy Chopin, for which you said the teacher then will choose activities to eventually make this possible.

We're assuming a decent teacher who's on top of things.

My premise was a student who knows that playing easy Chopin implies prior goals of piano playing skills, and these become the main goal. But even if not, if Chopin-type goals are defined, then the teacher may explain that other things will be done in order to get the skills that will lead to things such as the Chopin.


I had not thought of choice of material as being a problem. Well yes, if there are studies, the teacher has to find material to study. I'm not sure what else to say about that.

I think "how" is of greater concern than "what". In and of themselves, scales, Hanon, a Gavotte, don't teach. What are you as a teacher doing with them?

Have you shown me how to work on scales? Do I know what to focus on? If you want more even tone, is there something I should be doing differently to get there? If I simply "work on scales" any which way, it might be better not to touch them.


If this performance was planned under your guidance, why is it not ready? Did I fail to follow the steps you outlined / to practice? Do I know how to prepare a piece? Do I know how to practice? To me these are the more important questions.

Some of the questions that you highlighted in your OP potentially go toward the "how". The teacher who "never says anything" in lessons may only be listening for wrong notes. We don't want to go home and do the next piece and the next and the next. We want to know what to focus on, how to practice. The question of theory came up in your OP - so how does this get approached, and does it get approached?

Do we know how to practice and what to focus on? Do we know how to ask questions and which questions are ok to ask? Do we know that mistakes are ok and expected?

I'm getting a bit lost in this. I see both guidance and some kind of fluid dialog. I also think that there has to be a huge portion of "how" in the "what".

Thoughts?

I'm generally unhappy about what I wrote the 2nd time because it seems to miss the boat. (sigh)

There's another aspect. As beginners we need to learn fundamental things such as how to sit and move at the instrument, how to read notes, recognize chords and intervals etc. Later on it moves to interpretation of music, higher things in musicianship etc. Each of these takes a different kind of teacher. If you go to a superb performer who loves to help you develop a piece of music to perfection, but he does not understand how to develop the STUDENT so that the student has the tools, it will be an exercise in frustration.

I am going to jump back in here for one more round, because Mr. KeyString raises several points that we have not yet discussed. Further, I had no idea that there were so many poor, or lax private “teachers” from which to choose, and that is a very real problem.

So, perhaps a few words about expectations. I am EXPECTING a (piano) teacher to be a musical AND educational professional; not just someone who has room in their home for a piano, a cat, and a student or two. Before lessons ever begin, I am expecting the teacher to evaluate the student: “Is this potential student someone I can help musically?” If that evaluation comes back, “No”, then I am expecting the teacher to refer that potential student to someone else, or to suggest gardening, if that is more appropriate. During this evaluation of the student, the teacher is envisioning “goals” for this person, either discussed or implied, and maybe already the outline of a plan of study, and certainly HOW best to teach this student. In the real world, does the teacher’s workload and current income influence the decision? I am certain it does, but hopefully those are secondary considerations. Only if the teacher decides to accept the student, then there is a discussion of fees, lesson times, mechanical details.

This sounds too idealistic and fairy-tale-like? ALL the private music teachers that I know go through this process. It is important to note that the teacher (hopefully) has not clouded up the decision with a bunch of “What ifs . . . . . . . . . .” IS THIS SOMEONE I CAN HELP MUSICALLY? DO I WANT TO? The rest is mere detail. And that key question needs to be posed again and again throughout the course of this teacher/student relationship.

Here I believe it is important to realize that the good teacher EXPECTS to be in charge of, and responsible for, the development of that student. I’ll return to this idea in a moment.

What about our beginning student? With due consideration for individual differences, I am EXPECTING a serious adult student to have a firm grasp on what is involved in learning to play a musical instrument, including a realistic vision of how long such an endeavor could take, what sort of daily effort will be required, and a legitimate devotion to that time and effort. I am expecting the adult student to have already developed preferences for musical styles, and perhaps even some goals involving what he/she would like to achieve. I expect an adult student to do their diligence, and seek out a teacher who is a proponent of the student’s preferred musical style(s). I am expecting our beginning student to articulate any personal preferences in musical styles, or goals, before lessons actually start; perhaps solicited by the teacher.

One final thought about selecting a teacher: Avoid the view from the cheap seats.

With a student and a teacher who have decided to work together, here are some further expectations: I am EXPECTING this teacher to be, above all, musical, and to have a burning desire to impart musicality to the student. I already mentioned that a good teacher is expecting to be in charge AND responsible – maybe at first with the student’s daily practice (work) routine, and from the perspective of assignment and guidance, and particularly the evaluation of that work. The competent teacher SHOULD ask for certain scales, specific method books, repertoire, finger exercises, any and all rudiments, certain aspects of theory. Personally, I would not want any teacher who was not telling me how to spend my practice time - that is precisely what I am paying for.

As a teacher, I never minded discussing my rationale for choosing a piece on which to work, or why I assigned a particular exercise for practice, or how these fit in with the student’s goals. However, if any of those discussions turned into serious questioning, with overtones of doubt, I typically avoided any further answers, or justifications. I let my student draw his/her own conclusions about the effectiveness of what we were doing -- the ultimate justification.

And now as the student, I EXPECT open and honest feedback about results and progress from my teacher. I do not expect, nor do I want, sugar-coating on less-than-pleasant news. I expect recommendations on how to improve, if that is indicated; and I expect a recommendation to spend more time gardening, if that is indicated.

As the student, I am expecting results. If I do not already realize it, it will soon become apparent that IT IS I who performs the assigned work to get the results.

(TEACHER’S GUIDANCE) + (STUDENT’S WORK) = RESULTS

Time passes . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

If the teacher’s expectations are not being met, I want the good teacher to initiate that conversation. Equally, if the RESULTS (as opposed to trivial little details) are not to the student’s liking, it is the responsibility of that student to broach the subject. Such conversations typically result in an adjustment of methods, or in a change in what is reasonably expected, or in a parting of ways. Obviously, not every teacher/student pairing is ideal. Obviously, wonderful students "out-grow" their teachers.

And, as much as this Forum seems to ignore the fact, not everyone is equipped to be a piano player .

Thank you for taking the time to slog through all that and write your thoughts, Ed. Hopefully the dialogue can go on for a bit.

What you have described is ideal, but it is not reality, and reality is what we have to deal with. Not all of it is "poor quality teachers" per se - I have spent enough time describing the complications. Bottom line is that since things are as they are, an adult student wanting to take lessons for the first time should educate himself before contacting a teacher, because the kind of guidance you expect will not necessarily be there. Additionally, since adult students have a bad reputation, you may not access that teacher, or you may get a dummied down version of his teaching. You may think that is the real thing and wonder why you get stuck at a certain point, or why it seems to lack direction.

Because all this is going on, we have to be proactive. Educate yourself, initiate the discussion of goals if the teacher doesn't do so, etc.

Yes, agreed wholeheartedly. But if that part is skewed because of what I described, the results get wonky. It starts with the definition of goals, because that is what governs the teacher's guidance, and continues to learning how to work with a teacher and how to practice at home, which constitutes the "student's work" part.

A couple of thoughts:

How do you assess potential of someone who has never played a note and is approaching music for the first time? In fact, would you evaluate a 5 year old who has never had lessons in that way? Or do you start teaching and see what develops?

At least one PW teacher has written that he does so. There is a meeting once or twice a year with student (parents, if young) where progress, goals, mutual feedback are plotted. Someone who has never had lessons will grow and change the a lot, so this seems very important.

On a more superficial level I agree: in the sense of daily practice a minimum of 30 min./day, following instructions. The student will not know what it is like to fail at counting the 3 with playing in synch, that this childish activity is more important than an emotional rendering of WhatsThatPiece - if you mean the bare essentials of daily practice of assignments, yes.


Speaking personally, I disagree with this part except very generally if someone wants to play jazz/improvisation because of the different kinds of skills involved. The very FIRST thing we need are basic skills rather than a genre of music. That is my focus as a student, and I want it to be my teacher's focus.

There are other reasons: My present perception of music as an amateur is limited by what I can perceive. I want to be exposed to a variety of types of music as taught by a full musician. THEN I can choose genre. Beginners in any subject don't specialize.

The other reason is that I want my teacher to choose the music that will teach me what I need to learn. From Bach and Baroque you get accuracy of timing, crispness, an interweaving of voices. Romantic music requires a different touch, has unusual chords and harmonies. In the last half year working with a teacher I have played Bach, Chopin, presently Debussy, as well as a theme song of a popular music that teens like, and something jazzy. In one I had to work on being free with rubato and making a few repetitive figures be fresh and new each time, the Debussy is introducing me to whole tones, augmented, and traveling all over the keyboard in an unusual (to me) way.

I would say that I am experiencing these genres of music for the first time, especially as a musician. They are affecting my technique and also my ear. How can I choose a specialization from the very beginning?


Agreed. Even a teacher who wants to teach through more free choices, and maybe teach technique and theory from within pieces themselves, should have a major input.

I also find it exceedingly important to be observed and guided in how I do things physically, and how I might be approaching my practising at home. A scale or study is useless otherwise. This includes allowing independent thinking, trial and error, rather than too much prescription - what is called "intelligent practice" - with feedback.

Generally we are probably on the same page.

We are not discussing children, and I have no personal experience with students of that age. With the adult beginner, in most cases the teacher can glean whatever he/she needs to know (to get started) from a simple conversation:
“Why do you want to learn to play piano?”
“Do you play any other musical instruments?”
“What sort of music do you like to listen to?”
“Are you able to devote some time each day to practice?”
“How did you hear about me?”
Others . . . . .

Some teachers I know also like to conduct an informal “ear screening”, to determine if the potential student has innate ability to distinguish BY EAR between higher and lower pitches, faster and slower tempi, louder and softer attacks, staccato and legato sounds.

Obviously, if the student has been playing for a while, then the teacher is going to evaluate in more detail.

Either way, at this point, the competent teacher has enough information to answer the all-important question, “Is this potential student someone I can help musically? Do I want to?" And, at that point, even with the most elaborate plan of attack, with the best thought-out goals, having a beautiful, over-arching lesson plan, with a grand vision of how this student will progress, IN EVERY SINGLE CASE, the teacher must simply “start teaching and see what develops”.