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#1840951 - 02/08/12 10:25 PM Scaling down hard attacks to save the fingers
RealPlayer Offline
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Registered: 05/02/03
Posts: 2007
Loc: NYC
I'm bringing back a 1950s' piece (Cage's Music of Changes) for several upcoming performances, and it's a piece with lots of hard, sudden, rapid attacks (ff, fff, etc.) widely spaced across the keyboard, and I'm hurting myself in practicing. I keep forgetting I can't sustain that energy when I'm doing passages over and over. I think I bruised my little finger today.

Must scale down the attack levels, or I'll be in bad shape for the first performance in a week!

Does anyome else notice this? Probably not as much a problem with traditional repertoire.
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www.josephkubera.com

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#1840952 - 02/08/12 10:29 PM Re: Scaling down hard attacks to save the fingers [Re: RealPlayer]
Mark_C Offline
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Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 14778
Loc: New York
There's another reason to scale them down: If you attack all of them that hard, it's just not as good -- everything's the same. Nothing stands out, because everything stands out. There's no structure. The music doesn't go anywhere. I guess I just said the same thing about four times over. ha
Which is sort of how music sounds when we're attacking everything. grin

Oh yeah.....it also saves the fingers if you don't do that. smile
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"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)

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#1840953 - 02/08/12 10:30 PM Re: Scaling down hard attacks to save the fingers [Re: RealPlayer]
Horowitzian Offline
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Registered: 09/18/08
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It's John Cage; does the music actually go anywhere? grin
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~H

Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.

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#1840954 - 02/08/12 10:32 PM Re: Scaling down hard attacks to save the fingers [Re: Horowitzian]
Mark_C Offline
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Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 14778
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Horowitzian
It's John Cage; does the music actually go anywhere? grin

Wiseguy! ha
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"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)

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#1840958 - 02/08/12 10:41 PM Re: Scaling down hard attacks to save the fingers [Re: Mark_C]
RealPlayer Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/02/03
Posts: 2007
Loc: NYC
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
There's another reason to scale them down: If you attack all of them that hard, it's just not as good -- everything's the same. Nothing stands out, because everything stands out.


The fortes are not all the same. There are at least 4 levels of forte and 4 of piano, plus subtle accented versions of each. That's part of why it's so hard.
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#1840967 - 02/08/12 11:02 PM Re: Scaling down hard attacks to save the fingers [Re: RealPlayer]
wr Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 5429
Originally Posted By: RealPlayer

Does anyome else notice this? Probably not as much a problem with traditional repertoire.


Oh, yes, I get "bone bruises" from hard attacks, and it can happen in practically any music.

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#1840970 - 02/08/12 11:09 PM Re: Scaling down hard attacks to save the fingers [Re: RealPlayer]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 14778
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: RealPlayer
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
There's another reason to scale them down: If you attack all of them that hard, it's just not as good -- everything's the same. Nothing stands out, because everything stands out.
The fortes are not all the same. There are at least 4 levels of forte and 4 of piano, plus subtle accented versions of each. That's part of why it's so hard.

But even among fortes that are marked the same, they're still not the same. smile

I think that in general, it's best to save the "all out" for just a few selected places. But even if you don't subscribe to that, I think it's safe to say that there's a musical consideration for not having as many "hard attacks" as you seemed to be wondering about.
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#1840973 - 02/08/12 11:17 PM Re: Scaling down hard attacks to save the fingers [Re: RealPlayer]
DameMyra Online   happy
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Registered: 12/21/04
Posts: 1536
Loc: South Jersey
There is a difference between practice and performance. In sustained, repetitive practice one must always be aware of the danger of injury. Even in standard repertoire, practicing large chords fff, over and over is dangerous and counterproductive. Save it for rehearsal or performance.

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#1840981 - 02/08/12 11:38 PM Re: Scaling down hard attacks to save the fingers [Re: RealPlayer]
Horowitzian Offline
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Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8208
Not to mention a lot of heavy pounding will degrade your piano's tuning faster than it already is.
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~H

Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.

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#1841001 - 02/09/12 12:47 AM Re: Scaling down hard attacks to save the fingers [Re: RealPlayer]
RealPlayer Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/02/03
Posts: 2007
Loc: NYC
Thanks, everyone. What it is, is adrenalin. It's just so exciting to hear the good results at top speed and volume, and it requires constant attention to scale things down...which is totally necessary.

Attention, attention.
_________________________
Joe

www.josephkubera.com

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#1841058 - 02/09/12 03:54 AM Re: Scaling down hard attacks to save the fingers [Re: RealPlayer]
trigalg693 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/17/08
Posts: 348
I had this problem before, I would always bruise my fingers because I got enthusiastic on some places and hit the keys too hard. Know your flesh's "bruise limit" and stay under it, especially with heavy actions.


Edited by trigalg693 (02/09/12 03:54 AM)

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#1841065 - 02/09/12 04:07 AM Re: Scaling down hard attacks to save the fingers [Re: RealPlayer]
stores Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 5782
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
If you're actually hurting yourself then I sure as helll don't want to hear the end result. You should probably look into picking up a drum kit or something.
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

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#1841108 - 02/09/12 07:26 AM Re: Scaling down hard attacks to save the fingers [Re: RealPlayer]
apple* Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19476
Loc: Kansas
i really wish i could hear this piece performed mr. Kubera. maybe a video will be recorded.

a serious answer...I have hand issues and have ordered nylon inspector gloves to wear. they are super thin, impede proper performance, but not that much, and can be had for about 8 dollars a dozen. If i don't wear them sometimes, i get cracks, bleeding, nail issues. wearing them has increased my accuracy considerably. they are about 9 dollars a dozen and can be found singly at a hardware store probably (or pharmacy). they do get some getting used to. the sides of your fingers will thank you tho.

i like non-cotton and particularly the ones with the red thread at the cuff... and these have green thread.. they are VERY thin tho and the green thread ones run small.

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/MCR-Glove-3NAV9?Pid=search

best of luck
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)

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#1841195 - 02/09/12 10:45 AM Re: Scaling down hard attacks to save the fingers [Re: apple*]
RealPlayer Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/02/03
Posts: 2007
Loc: NYC
Originally Posted By: apple*
i really wish i could hear this piece performed mr. Kubera. maybe a video will be recorded.

I've recorded it, and it's available on the Lovely Music label. And thanks for the tips on the gloves; will look into it.

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Joe

www.josephkubera.com

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#1841197 - 02/09/12 10:50 AM Re: Scaling down hard attacks to save the fingers [Re: stores]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 14778
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: stores
If you're actually hurting yourself then I sure as helll don't want to hear the end result. You should probably look into picking up a drum kit or something.

Sort of what I meant too but I tried to put it nicer. ha
_________________________

"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)

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#1841377 - 02/09/12 04:41 PM Re: Scaling down hard attacks to save the fingers [Re: DameMyra]
BruceD Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 15661
Loc: Victoria, BC
Originally Posted By: DameMyra
There is a difference between practice and performance. In sustained, repetitive practice one must always be aware of the danger of injury. Even in standard repertoire, practicing large chords fff, over and over is dangerous and counterproductive. Save it for rehearsal or performance.


Professional opera singers, even in public rehearsals with orchestra, will often sing at half-voice, saving their full voice for the "real" performances. In repertoire such as mentioned, would this not be advisable, even if not all the time?

Regards,
_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190 in satin ebony

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#1841409 - 02/09/12 05:26 PM Re: Scaling down hard attacks to save the fingers [Re: RealPlayer]
wr Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 5429
Originally Posted By: RealPlayer
Thanks, everyone. What it is, is adrenalin. It's just so exciting to hear the good results at top speed and volume, and it requires constant attention to scale things down...which is totally necessary.

Attention, attention.


Do be careful. I think Bronfman actually broke a finger playing piano not so long ago.

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#1841411 - 02/09/12 05:29 PM Re: Scaling down hard attacks to save the fingers [Re: wr]
beet31425 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/09
Posts: 2789
Loc: Bay Area, CA
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: RealPlayer
Thanks, everyone. What it is, is adrenalin. It's just so exciting to hear the good results at top speed and volume, and it requires constant attention to scale things down...which is totally necessary.

Attention, attention.


Do be careful. I think Bronfman actually broke a finger playing piano not so long ago.

True that. At a concert in Berkeley, playing Prokofiev's 8th sonata.

-J
_________________________
Learning: Polonaise-Fantasie, Scherzo 1, op.59 mazurkas
Refining: Chopin 27/2, 25/1, 10/9, 10/5, 10/6

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#1841933 - 02/10/12 01:50 PM Re: Scaling down hard attacks to save the fingers [Re: RealPlayer]
RealPlayer Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/02/03
Posts: 2007
Loc: NYC
Practicing these last two days more lightly, and that definitely helps.

My nails look like crap, but that happens whenever I practice a lot, any volume, any music.
_________________________
Joe

www.josephkubera.com

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#1841955 - 02/10/12 02:20 PM Re: Scaling down hard attacks to save the fingers [Re: RealPlayer]
apple* Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19476
Loc: Kansas
actually nail stengthening polish might help.. you could sand the tops a bit so it doesn't show.

ha ha
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)

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