Is this about Kitts or about the keyboard?

haha, I just talked to Jordan Kitts today. They have the LX-15 in stock too!

LOL !!!

When this thread last went dead, I called Roland about my problem and was eventually contacted by their National Sales manager. Not only was he a wealth of information about the V-Grand, but if I could wait until after the NAMM show he promised to get one stocked by the Roland dealer in Boston. To-day that promise was kept and there is now a V-Grand on the showroom floor. The sales team is learning how to use it and next week I plan to give it a try. I'm hoping that Bennevis' Steinway settings apply to the V-grand, otherwise I'll be lost at sea.

Great to read OldFingers

One personal note, nothing to to disrespect bennevis. Altho I prefer his settings adjusted myself. Why is mainly because I do not think the pianos open up. Too tight in tone. Honestly, I've used all his tones and adjusted them into my preference ;-)

What I do, is open them up detuning them to instead of -10/-20 to +10/+20.

It's very personal, but it makes a heck of a lot difference.

Frankly, trying it for the first time is amazing, but when you know what each setting does, and plying with it.. makes it incredible.

My personal favorite is the Bossendorfer and the Hamilton. Then imo: of course detune them to let them breathe. Altho having a cabinet on the Grand-version, it might respond different.. difficult to say Acoustics matter inmensely



Enjoy trying!

Yes, I'd advise trying out different settings yourself, rather than relying purely on mine (excellent as they are ): you might prefer piano sounds that are different to my preferences - I like perfectly tuned and regulated instruments like those concert grands in good showrooms and concert halls. Also the sound is slightly different depending on whether you are listening through headphones (and which type of headphones - my original settings were done using closed AKG K271 MkII ones) or speakers; and if using the latter, the acoustic can change the sound, as I discovered when I played the V-Piano Grand in an actual (empty) concert hall.

For anyone who lives in Canada a reasonable distance from Ottawa:

I was in the Kawai / Roland dealer a few weeks ago and he had a V-Piano grand in stock! The name of the place is Campbell Douglas Keyboards, and they usually carry the Roland HP, Kawai CA / CN / CS, plus a few others. They also carry grands and uprights (Kawai K / RX) if you're interested. Anyway, I was very surprised to see the V-Piano Grand here; I thought I'd never get the chance to play one.

Ottawa Pianos (the Yamaha dealer here) has the N3, and from what I remember, I thought it was much better than the V-Piano Grand, but I would have to revisit them both as it's been about 8 months since I touched an N3. To me, the V-Piano Grand just sounds like a V-Piano with speakers; I didn't feel convinced by the speaker placement or blown away by a wall of sound. The new sound setting isn't all that noticeably different in my opinion; sounds just the the other V-Piano sounds to me (I tried with my headphones as well).

It's pathetic that they use the same PHA3 for such an expensive DP compared to the NX. I'd rather spend $3000 on the NX, $3000 on amazing monitors + sub, $3000 on a decked out Macbook Pro, buy Ivory 2, Gerritan Steinway, and Galaxy, and still have enough money left over to take a trip across the world.

that's a pretty powerful argument that Roland really doesn't have a clue what its doing with this entire virtual piano concept. they just seem to be fooling around in the laboratory, coming up with something, and then getting it to market without really having a plan where they are going next. maybe they get it right down the road, but it sounds like the v-grand is just a complete joke for the money. Technology for the sake of technology. almost like windows vs mac- one gets the job done, while the other is an expandable platform that wows people and keeps them coming back for more. i may be in the minority, but i absolutely feel the same way about my v-piano, and i wonder what in the world i was thinking when i bought it. but it's such a tank that i've decided to keep mine hoping that it was last forever as a home midi controller.... and also wondering if Roland will EVER come up with another update that moves its sounds forward...

Hmm, all the criticism is about the sound, which is entirely subjective (I dislike Yamaha's CF-IIIS but love the CFX for example - but I love Bösendorfer best of all). What about the 'connection', the playability, the sheer realism, of being able to forget that you're playing on an electronic instrument with no direct mechanical linkage to the sound?

When playing on any sampled DP (like all Yamaha's DPs, whether the CLP or AG series), I can never forget that the sound is not directly linked to my fingers: there's just something artificial about the sound production and the way it responds (or more accurately, doesn't respond) to my touch. Only the V-Piano and its big brother the V-Piano Grand make me forget that I'm not playing an acoustic grand, and I can lose myself into making music - which after all is the sole reason to buy a musical instrument.....isn't it?

BTW, I love Roland's 'house sounds' too - but even more when I've customized it to my own specifications.....

as purely a performance instrument, i would agree with you. and my sense is that for you your finger/ear connection to the keys is most important and trumps all else. But I don't buy what you are saying about the sounds, although i give you a lot of credit for developing a systematic approach for making the native sounds more realistic. I wanted it to fool me but it doesn't. But for me, i'm much more interested in the beauty of a piano's sound than I am my own playing. perhaps that makes me a fool for even caring about DP's and samples when i already own a nice acoustic, but i admit i like the privacy of a DP and the ability to learn through recording and seeing notation created by midi.

my own bias is towards a very close to the strings perspective of a jazz/pop standards solo player. I think folks oriented towards classical like the sound from a more distant perspective (which to me- as an aside- is one of the great shortcomings of the v-piano- the inability to create sound perspectives from different locations other than the player position), and perhaps with the right tweaks the v-piano adequately captures that.

I am finding that Ivory 2 connects me enough to the keys to where it satisfies my need for believable playability (Alicia's Keys doesn't), and i also feel i can appreciate the beauty of its output. When i play my small acoustic grand and then play the ivory 2 steinway, i hear enough similarities that i don't feel put-off by the transition. I will probably add Vintage D to my collection because i get the same feeling when i hear its recordings.

I am not an authority on any of this, so i tend to look towards the marketplace for guidance/confirmation on whether something is "working" or not. I have been surprised at the little uptake of recordings using the vpiano on youtube, etc. Even the roland website stopped posting new testimonials from pros about its virtues. to me, it seems completely dead in the water. completely.. and just in closing, I have allways felt a positive connection when i've played the rd700nx so i'm not a roland-hater. I think SN works, and perhaps that is where the V-piano technology will ultimately reside- as part of hybrid instruments.

I agree with almost everything you've said Bruce. The sound has to be beautiful and believable for me. Have you heard the Imperfect Samples Fazioli that is getting a bit of press on here? A very nice sounding piano.

it really is. i am balking at having to shell out more dough for kontakt, but it is very tempting to take the plunge.

You guys sure know how to spoil a party. I haven't even gotten to try the V-Grand, and you have already succeeded in making me feel stupid for even thinking about it. Overall I do appreciate the cautionary notes, however, as I am so enamored of the idea of the V-Grand that I might otherwise be tempted to do something impetuous. I know that a lot of posters in this forum think that owning an acoustic grand is the end of the story, but it is fraught with its own set of problems, not the least of which is its loudness. In my opinion I think that Roland is a least headed down the right track. At my age I'm running out of time waiting for the perfect digital grand piano.

For the record I passed along Bennevis' Steinway settings to the store, a store that sells Steinways by the way, but they thought it sounded more like a Yamaha.

The V-Piano seems to polarize people like no other instrument on the planet. All I can say is make up your own mind. I'm sure people mean well but what other people say doesn't amount to a hill of beans in the end. Go with your heart and listen with an open mind. Trust your own instincts.

yeah, i wish i hadn't said anything. if you really like it, old fingers, have at it and God bless you. i have never seen nor played the v-grand, and it might be a completely different experience from the vpiano. i was just pontificating on someone else's point about not seeing much difference with the vgrand vs the vpiano, which i found somewhat amazing..... Just be careful and know what you really are trying to do- that is a lot of money for electronics cased in wood. Have you really given the avant grand models a fair shake- if that is the direction you want to head?

EDIT: let me put it to you this way- everybody who owns an avant grand seems very satisfied with their purchase. I've never heard anybody critique the v-grand because its sort of like Bigfoot- its supposed to exist but no one has ever really seen it. For my hard-earned money- i would feel safer with the Avant Grand- or for that matter- even the vpiano base model- i complain about it but its a blast to play. i just want it to be....BETTER!!!

Bruce:

Thanks for trying to make me feel better. I do.

When the AvantGrand arrived I was very keen until I found out that it was limited to the Yamaha pianos. It's not that I want to have a lot of different pianos to play, but rather to find one that I would want to play in my musical space. After my experience with my RX-3 I realize that what one hears in the showroom is not what one will hear in one's music room. The whole point about digital pianos, or digital anything for that matter, is its reconfigurability (if that's a word), and I really want something that I can "tune" to my acoustic space. Call me old-fashioned, which I am, but I want to sit down at something that looks like a grand piano, which is why I'm not likely to do the keyboard/speaker thing.

So far as finances are concerned I spent my retirement present to myself on the RX-3, plus acoustic panels, etc, etc. If the V-Grand proves to be of interest I'm hoping its cost will be covered by sale of the Kawai.

Why doesn't someone make an AvantGrand or a V-Grand with a nice keyboard, good speakers in a nice mini-grand cabinet with a heavy-duty computer that will support all possible software pianos. Then I could use my favorite Ivory piano and I'd be golden. It seems so simple. At least the V-Grand allows for upgrades.

Bob

Bob,

I've had 2 encounters with the V-Piano Grand and I was amazed. And for you if you are to see the benefits of the V-grand, you should really have a someone experienced guide you through it as I had. Otherwise, I might never have understood how it excels.

Bob,

I have followed your plight, on and off, since several years ago on the 'other' forum, and now on this forum. I think that you need to take more of a musician appreciation and less of an engineering appreciation to the whole issue, AP or DP. IMHO, without rebalancing your appreciation you would not be happy even with a $1M Stradivarius

I think I know what you are saying and in principle I agree with you, but how would you feel, if when you are playing a piece, you hit a couple of notes in the fifth octave that are stridently irritating. It takes the fun out of it. All I'm trying to do with my next piano is to avoid a repeat of the mistakes I made with the first one, and I believe a digital that can be designed to suit my ears in my space is the best option. With an acoustic you get one chance to get it all right. We'll see though. My V-Grand test-run is scheduled for next week. Wish me luck.

I think you can get a decent upright (Yamaha, for instance) for the price of a V-Piano. Just sayin'.

You could still tweak it, just that you need to hire a piano technician to do it for you.

Just a thought but I assume you are aware that its It's not like a Avant Grand in that it doesn't have a real action or anything special in the speaker department and that its just a normal V-piano stuck in a fake grand piano shell with built in speakers and the same action and sounds for 4 times the price ?

Selling a RX-3 to buy a V-Grand of all things seems frankly crazy to me but its your money ....you could buy a RD700NX with exactly the same action and also a arguably much better sound then the V and use that as a silent piano when you wanted too for $2100 and keep your RX-3.

Couldn't agree more.

(I'll take your RX-3 if you're determined to see the back of it! Want to swap for a FP-7F? )

Bob, what advice would YOU give to someone who keeps hearing strident voices or other irritations in several subsequent $1M Stradivariuses? OK, OK, I'll stop, just want to be helpful...

That's a good deal ... it's got the same action and a better sounding piano then the V-Grand

What is a 'real' action? One that allows you to play music written for the piano that requires incredible virtuosity? Or any old heavy unresponsive lump as long as it is made of real wood? Of all the criticisms of the V-Piano or V-Piano Grand, the idea that the keyboard isn't up to the job is perhaps the most stupid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0-dC7eT_Oo



More nonsense.



http://www.roland.co.uk/products/productdetails.aspx?p=1158

@Oldfingers good luck with your trial.

You might want to read this article before you go to give you some idea of what to expect:

http://www.recordproducer.com/?a=517

Looks like someone has swallowed the v grand publicity bait hook line and sinker !
LOL !

Just to add closure to this thread, I tried the V-Grand, and suffice to say, I'll be keeping my RX-3.

Thanks all for your comments.

Good choice!

Indeed !

Seconded .

If you don't feel or hear the benefits of the modelling technology when you try it out, why buy the V-Piano/Grand?

I've just returned from a visit to a new DP centre (or rather, a long-standing one, but it was my first visit), with the quietest 'showroom' I've ever encountered. They have DPs from Roland, Kawai and Yamaha (but no V-Piano or AG), and I took the opportunity to play using their onboard speakers as well as through my headphones, without having to worry about blasting other punters' ears out . It really brought home to me how restricted are the dynamic ranges (at both pp and ff) of the sampled DPs, having been used to the unlimited ffff of my V-Piano (limited only by my strength, just like on an acoustic). The Rolands seem to have wider dynamic ranges than the Kawais or Yamahas, maybe because of the SN technology, but there was still a definite ceiling beyond which one couldn't go.