I am close to getting a Kawai K6 or K8. A lot of dealers steer me towards European or Euro-design Chineese made instruments like Vogel. What are the European equivalents of Kawai/Yamaha uprights? What are their advantages and dis-advantages?

W.Hoffman is a subsidiary of C bechstein, and they make pianos in Czech Republic. There is Boston, Of steinway design made in Japan. Petrof is another brand that competes with the higher end uprights of Yamaha and Kawai. Irmler, by bluther, is another. At the price point of those uprights, generally the brands are subsidiaries of the Big, famous brands, though there are exceptions.,

In quality and build, they would be similar to similar models of Yamaha/Kawai. The sound will be different from brand to brand. Of course, go for the one you like the sound of best. Let your fingers and ears guide you, not the salesguy. Salespeople are good for recommending brands though, and you could go and try their suggestions.

I played a Vogel and a May Berlin. Sounded really good and it was hard to fault. I am passionate about the Kawai right now but I have learned to slow down and assess things here on this board. Some of the other nice European Uprights were three times the Kawai/Yamaha Price. I didn't really hear the difference in value.

What brands were they?

If you find a dealer of Kawai or Yamaha who steers you toward a European or Euro design upright, it would be quite a find -- definitely worth reporting here.

Unless the manufacturer of Vogel is completely dodging the truth, Vogel is not a Chinese piano.



You're probably not going to hear a sound (tone) difference that objectively equates to value, unless you happen to find a piano sound that you personally like much better than all others in a piano that costs much more than all the others you're looking at. However, since it's just as likely that the sound (tone) you personally like best will come from a piano that is not the most expensive, there is no objective value in sound.

In looking at European brands, I'd encourage you to evaluate mainly through your fingers, focusing on the responsiveness of the action and the action's ability to allow you to manipulate a wide dynamic and expressive range through your hands. In my experience at least, if you sift through a variety of expensive European brands, you will find a few that excel in that area beyond the Japanese brands, and a few equally expensive brands and models that come up short -- this despite the fact that virtually all of those Europeans tout actions made by Renner as a huge quality advantage.

The European brand whose production methods most closely parallel the Japanese brands is Schimmel. but I don't think this is necessarily what your question is asking for. The European brand whose pianos are the most made from scratch with little reliance on others is Sauter.

I THINK what you meant to say was "THE European brand whose pianos are the most made from scratch with NO reliance on others is Sauter."

To the OP: You might try finding a Seiler dealer, or dealer for Irmler (product of Bluthner)uprights. Those brands are more comparable in building technique and price point to Kawai and Yamaha.

That may well be, but not being a Master myself, I cannot speak as definitively as you.

No matter, I think if your approach to things is through the hands and fingers, the Sauter verticals can show you what that company is all about. There's something there that is tangible and quite apparent. The decision of whether that something is worth double or triple the price is a personal one, but there is something there.

I think the German Seiler verticals do give a good account of themselves, but an Irmer vertical IMO is just a pleasant sounding Asian piano with Chinese roots. Faced off with a Yamaha YUS and K-8, I would expect it to come off third best. Faced off with a May Berlin and a W. Hoffmann, who knows?

I'm not quite sure how you want to equate them.

I have little experience of Chinese pianos. A large influence on a pianos sound and feel is the factory it came out of, Very often more of an influence than the design.

Some pianos feel and sound so good to the pianist which is fine for a home practice piano but they don't sound so good from out in an auditotium.

I don't know much about Chinese pianos yet but a genuine European piano may fall within your price range.

Dealers will, of course, push what they have to sell.

I have been impressed with some of the low end European pianos lately. ( those manufacturers tbat make a low price product).

It may prove worthwhile to look at European pianos while you are searching.

Enjoy your search.

anyone have any information on the newer German Zimmermann uprights? any good compared to W. Hoffmann or C. Bechstein, which C. Bechstein claims is made by them (the Zimmermann).

Funnily enough, it was an 8-9 year old Zimmerman that I tuned yesterday that prompted my previous reply.

It said Zimmermann only on the fallboard and said built by Bechstein on the inside. It might be the same model piano as a Hoffmann. A Bechstein dealer could clarify this point. It is very likely made on the same assembly line. I was very impressed by the foremen in all of the Bechstein factories, particularly the factory that builds the Hoffmann. A very conciencious and erudite man fully conversant with piano maintenance issues.

I was also very impressed by the very European-ness of the general sound, even for a 48-50" size U/R. I don't hear this sound from Japanese pianos , nor from the admittedly very few Chinese pianos of which I have personal experience.

I tried out a new European upright at Cunningham Piano Company the other day--I think it was a Sauter, although it might have been a Seiler. While I do not remember the brand as well as I should, I do remember that it sounded absolutely fabulous and had an equally incredible touch and feel to it. I also distinctly remember the magnificent modern cherry case.

There are some amazing upright pianos out there!

Yes, but Irmler professional is made in Europe and a far better quality. Don´t know exactly where it´s built, I think it´s Poland.




As far as I know the Zimmermann are built in Seifhennersdorf in Germany and the Hoffmanns are built in Czech Republic. But I am not sure, I am no Bechstein dealer.

Gregor

I saw a Wilh. Steinberg upright Model IQ 24 made in Eisenberg the other day. The cabinet is crafted from sold Aspen Oak. A very pretty piano, with a sweet sound. I liked the action alot, but I'm just a beginner so my judgement is very limited. Wish I could afford it.

Bill

And I'm the sugar plum fairy.

Hello Gregor,

Let's just say that you're a believer and I'm not. I have nothing against the Irmlers, Hoffmanns, Indoesian Seilers, etc., except for the shiftiness of the sourcing and the marketing. If the OP were interested in finding pianos with European maker's names on them that are sourced here, there, and everywhere else, at prices equal to or less than artist-level Yamaha and Kawai pianos, I suppose these pianos would be targets for him.

However, his opening post indicated an interest in the expensive European purebred verticals that cost well more. Now, I doubt he has a serious interest, but if he did, neither Irmler series would be part of the conversation.

What do you guys/gals think of Vogel?

More importantly, what do YOU think of Vogel? That's what matters after all, in the end.

I like Vogel. They are nice pianos. They appear to be made in Poland. Though not as refined sounding as Schimmel, as far as I could tell (i have only played two Vogel's), they had a similar basic tonal characteristics, clear and pure.

The Vogel 125 piano I saw was supposedly the first in the USA straight from the 2012 NAMM show. Very beautiful tone and it seemed like a good value fro the price point. Not a lot of data on here regarding Vogel. The dealer said it's practically a hand made piano.

What does it mean that a piano is "practically" a hand made piano?

"hand made" is a basically useless marketing term. Even the most mass-produced piano needs hours upon hours of hand labor.

My thoughts exactly BUT it did sound good! (The piano that is....not the catch phrase!)

LOL

It's definitely a model new to the US market. Schimmel's description of it on its webiste is the usual vague blather offered with these international hybrids. Someimes these NAMM show pianos can be a good deal and sometimes they can be very well-prepped too if the company takes its show presentations seriously.

It would probably help if the dealer who purchased it from NAMM is an authorized Schimmel dealer.


You menionted good value. A low-line Schimmel of that size would have an SMP of 22k. An upper-crust model of that size would have an SMP just under 30k. The Schimmel DNA in that Vogel is probably in line with its cost relative to those two.

As Mr. Stevens would say: "Indeed!""

It seems you've played more Estonias than Vogels then. Could you expound on what you mean by a"refined" sound and explain what makes Schimmel's tone more refined than Vogel's .

Your efforts to plagei parrot paraphrase Lary Fine have led you astray here Rotom. Fine is writing about refinements in the build, not a refined sound.

I sure love mine!

Yes i can elaborate. And yes, I have played more Estonia's than Vogel's too.

I found schimmel to have a more clean, focused sound, as opposed to Vogel' which had the same tonal characteristics as Schimmel (clean, pure) but less focused, and had less power and felt a little loose in terms of sound. Also, my perception of Vogel may have been tainted by an action that didn't feel tight enough. But if our definitions of "refinement" vary, I'm afraid I can't explain it any better tha I have already.

I think what I have come down to is I won't go any further for an upright than a K8. While that Vogel sounded fantastic and was a few thousand more.........I am better served putting that money away towards a Grand Piano down the road. (It could be a short road!)

There is always something 'better' and always something more expensive. One thing about a Kawai K-8 -- it's the 'best' vertical that company has to offer and, as such, reflects a serious effort. Their name is on the line.

Sub lines are another matter. Ever since Steinway scored with the Boston, Euro brands have been trying to emulate that success. Actual makers of sub line pianos come and go. Models change. New models are introduced. Components and sub-assemblies are mixed and matched. Companies who own the fallboard name want to remain flexible as they tweak the formula hoping to catch some of that Steinway marketing magic.

I'm not trying to knock the Vogel. It may be splendid. It's impossible to get a price fix because it's not in Fine's listings, but 3k more than Kawai's best seems very rich for a sub line.

Every time you replace a piano you bought new with another you buy new, you lose money. That's inevitable, but in the case of the Kawai K-8, the brand redognition and transferable warranty should minimize the damage (if you do go for a grand later).

Oh I won't be selling it to get a Grand Piano in the future.....rather "adding" a Grand Piano when the time and space comes. All your points are well spoken.