In spite of my previous posts looking for a high quality, large grand piano, circumstances have changed right now and I likely will have to settle for an upright or, gulp, a digital! (Please, no!) Which new or slightly used upright should I consider? I want a touch and tone as close as possible to a better-quality but small grand piano such as the Americans: Steinway, Mason-Hamlin, etc., or the nicer Europeans: Bosie, Schimmel, Bechstein, Estonia, etc. Cost is a concern: maybe up to $8000 or even a bit more? I know this almost certainly means used, not new,so that is my main question. I am not too keen on pianos like Yamaha from what I have heard so far. Of course, I want a fairly strong bass, singing treble, nice sustain, and overall rich sound. (As you can see, I don't ask for much. Just a fabulous upright that will make me forget I couldn't get a grand like I wanted. In case you have read my other posts, I was planning to shop for a 7' higher quality grand piano. Oh, well... It would help if you could share your own experiences shopping for an upright, prices you encountered, etc.

Is the AvantGrand out of the question? Real grand action and certainly sounds more like a Yamaha grand than an upright...

What about the Charles Walter? Also many used Steinway K52s around... sometimes they come already "restored" for around that price.

Maybe action should be your focus and not tone. The grands all sound different anyways. Tone is just so subjective. If you find one that you like who cares which American or European grand it sounds like, if at all.

"The 52" model K132 [Schimmel], which features a grand-shaped soundboard, has a very big sound; listening to it, one might think one was in the presence of a grand." So says Larry Fine in the Piano Book.

Of course for $8K, it would be far from new, as new would likely mean three times that amount.

Were it me I’d be looking for a nicely rebuilt old Bush & Lane (or some such) upright. Forget about the exterior finish. Refinishing it would just drive the cost up and out of your price range. But for $8K (or thereabouts) you should be able to find a decently designed and constructed upright and have it nicely rebuilt—not “refurbished” by a rebuilder wan’-a-be or klutz, but a real professional job—upright that will put many good-sized grands to shame.

You’ll want the soundboard stripped and epoxy-sealed as per my old Piano Technicians Journal articles, new strings (with a new string scale) and tuning pins (with a new pinblock insert), whatever key work is necessary, new hammer butts (probably), new hammers (Ronsen with Weikert felt), new damper felts and whatever other work is required to complete the job in a professional and workman like manner.

The trick will be finding just the right technician to do all this work and put the same amount of love and care into the project that would go into a (brand-name) old grand.

ddf

I would have thought that rebuilding an older upright would push the price up a lot and is usually thought to be not worthwhile cost-wise? How much would you expect to pay to do this if the piano itself could be bought relatively cheaply?

I went to the local Yamaha dealer and tried the AvantGrand as well as a new "special" model C3 grand. The special model had some additional numbers and letters printed on the right side of the case on the top but I forget what they said. Anyway, special or not, I wasn't impressed. The tone was clear and clean but rather dull. I guess I am used to the Steinway sound from my daughter's L. I tried the AvantGrand and I was very disappointed. It had a strident, harsh sound. I couldn't even finish playing one song on it. I have read that many people on PianoWorld like it so I am wondering if there was something wrong with this particular one? Do they usually sound so harsh? I know it is sampled from a Yamaha concert grand, but they must sound a lot better than this thing did. I have listened to YouTube samples of many of Roland's V grands, Supernatural sampled pianos, etc. and they sound interesting, but usually the performances have a lot of notes being played together quickly and it is hard to judge how other kinds of music would sound. I would give them a try in person, but can't locate one in our area and I would never buy one without trying it for myself. I also fear that the changing technology and short life span of a digital makes me shun them in favor of an acoustic which I feel is a more lasting value.

I think you might have a good choice for me with the Schimmel K132 but I find Schimmels are scarce where I live. The dealer who used to sell them here retired and closed shop. I have loved the big Schimmel grands I tried while visiting North Carolina, but I hate to have to have something shipped across the country and I would have to make a trip somewhere to try it out anyway. I will start looking for one.

Would that particular "special model" C3 with a few extra letters printed, be a C3XA?

Del: Should there not be some anxiety that putting so much money into an old upright--money that I'm guessing would, for the most part, not be recoverable on resale--runs the risk that when the work is done, the owner might not like the sound of that particular instrument even if the work is well done? (I raise this concern because long ago I threw lots of money into an old upright, had virtually everything replaced/rebuilt) and while the technician liked the sound, I did not. I eventually tried to sell it and lost all that I had put into it.) At this point, I'd be afraid to buy a used piano that didn't sound exactly the way I wanted it to before I bought it. Once burned twice shy.

Yes, those are valid concerns. But, you have to remember that not all technicians are created equal. I'm not saying that even the very best rebuilders always hit a home run, but your odds are greatly improved if you choose someone who really knows what he or she is doing, and you have realistic expectations.

Your current situation may inherently make you a hard customer to satisfy! It's like someone used to driving a BMW shopping for Chevrolets. A C3 Yamaha sounds great to many people, but I dare say "many people" might not include lots of folks used to listening to a good Steinway grand. If that's what's happening, it might be hard to solve that problem without increasing the budget.

Regarding the AvantGrand, many responses on this forum have been polarized. For those of us like you and me who don't like it, I believe the problem may be that our ears (consciouly or unconsciously) focus on the difference between a recording of a fine piano and the sound of a fine piano. When I play an AG, all I hear is that it sounds like a recording, which I find totally unacceptable. For the many people who love the AG (apparently including some very polished players), my guess is what their ear focuses on is the remarkable (albeit not total) similarity between the AG's sound and that of a 9-foot very upscale totally unaffordable concert grand. Clearly you've already figured out the solution for yourself regarding the AG--don't get one. I went through the same process. I came to the same conclusion. After reading the rave reviews, I kept thinking I was missing something, so I played several of them over time. My head said the AG was a good idea but my ear kept yelling at me, "Can't you hear this is only a recording and not a real piano?" In the end I gave up, getting a C2--far less impressive than the C3 you didn't like, but then again my historical yardstick for better or worse has been more affected by Chevrolets than BMWs, so to speak.

Check out RickJonesPianos.com - no, I am not affiliated with him. I almost bought a piano from his website, however I found something locally but I would not have hesitated. They play several instruments and video them on YouTube so you can hear the sound. Check out the YouTube channel - there are hundreds of videos. He is based in Maryland in the D.C. area - maybe not too far for you to visit.

Depends on what you mean by “worthwhile.” If your primary goal is to have a piano with a high resale value conventional wisdom is quite correct, it’s not worthwhile. If your goal is to have an outstanding musical instrument that will return years, if not decades, of faithful and enjoyable musical service then conventional wisdom is quite wrong.

The trick will be finding the right technician to guide you through the various twists and turns you’ll find along the way. Choosing the right piano to start with would be important. Forget the old Steinway uprights. The decal costs too much and there are too many action design problems to overcome. It should be something that is competently and conventionally designed. Some new “universal” upright action parts are now available from Tokiwa. Hammers and damper felts are readily available.

You’d want something that is structurally sound and something with a decent case. Forget the junk. And there is plenty of junk out there—avoid it, you don’t need to waste your time on it. Good old uprights are not particularly hard to find; I’ve seen some spectacular old jewels with gorgeous casework and decent original finishes being basically given away.

Bush & Lane uprights were about the only old uprights we were doing on spec; they were good enough and the name—among those who know—is more highly valued than Steinway, M&H most of the other so-called “high-end” uprights of the day. Another old upright I’d rebuild on spec was certain models built by Knabe. Wonderful designs.

Given the right piano to start with you should be able to come up with something quite wonderful for less than $8K.

ddf

You are quite right about resale value. In today’s market resale value could well be an issue. But then have you tried to resell a three-year-old piano—either grand or vertical—that you bought new? The money spent on a new piano is not recoverable either. In general, pianos should not be purchased as financial investments any more than cars are purchased as financial investments. (Marketing claims by some—well, one—notwithstanding.) Rather the piano should be looked at as a musical investment.

As may be, the heading on this thread is, ”Upright piano closest in tone and touch to nice grand,” not “which piano will make the best financial investment.” And there was a budget cap of $8,000. These constraints rule out all of the high-end European uprights and most of the high-end Asian pianos. It leaves. Unless, of course, they are quite old and heavily used and then performance and reliability will be an issue. Besides, none of these can measure up—musically—to the performance of a properly done old American or Canadian upright.

I’m sorry to hear that your experience was less than satisfactory. There really should be very little risk involved if the technician is competent and if he/she understands the basic concepts of piano design and acoustics. Nowadays it is possible to predict with reasonable accuracy what the completed instrument is going to sound like and can—within reasonable limits—tailor the work and materials to bias the performance of the completed piano in favor of what the pianist is after.

ddf

It's a very tall order. There is too much variance in grand actions and in the tone different grands produce to draw clear parallels. Some of the brands that you mention play very differently and sound very different. Some are rare (Bösendorfer verticals for example), and Estonia makes no vertical pianos.

8k or a little above is Yamaha u-3 territory, but let's rule out the whole U series based on your taste. Jumping to the opposite pole of what's available new at around 8k, you can find many new Asian and Euro-Asian uprights that are pleasant, demure, inoffensive, but don't have any particular character beyond that. Ruling them out, in your price range new you might be able to find a Petrof 125 (Czech manufacture) or a Wm. Knabe upright (Korean manufacture) that you might like or not like. But either of these has a character of its own at least.

Going used, your possibilities with 8k expand a lot. You might even find an M&H 50 upright in decent shape, although a Steinway K-52 in good playing condition would probably be out of reach. Obviously there are other possibilities, but it comes down again to your taste.

Going rebuilt, you wouldn't necessarily have to buy a carcass on blind faith that the result will be to your liking.Some rebuilders do have partially and fully rebuilt pianos for sale that they have done on spec even though it's not the most lucrative business. Those would include Steinways of course, and a range of other classic American brands. Del himself had a rebuilt classic Bush & Lane in his inventory a while back, and I don't think he was expecting to make a killing on it.

Personally, I think your best bet is to be open to everything you see ratheer than trying to track down specific brands or models. If something has a definite appeal, then check it out here against critical opinion.

Unless I'm imagining things, I'm pretty sure that I saw a picture of an upright WNG action model in one of the NAMM threads. Any idea when that will make its commercial debut?

I don't think it said that, but not sure. I think it had an S in it or something.

You did.

Uncertain, but hopefully some time this year.

It is intended to be a complete replacement action rather than simply parts to fit old rails.

ddf

There are some nice sounding vertical pianos; but, it is physically impossible to create the grand action feel or sound in a vertical piano. The number one unavoidable difference being the angle and positioning of the hammer strike.

…says someone who has not played a vertical piano with a Fandrich Vertical Action installed in a Fandrich vertical piano —the piano was my design; the action was my brothers (Darrell Fandrich) invention. There were quite a number of people who, after playing this piano , compared its performance to that of the very best 5’ 10-1/2” grand pianos available.

There are no longer any technical reasons why vertical pianos cannot be made with performance—both action and sound—that is at least as good as that of grands under, say, 190 cm. The problem is a lack of will and, possibly, market.

ddf

I'm not sure how this came up, but let me clarify: I am not worried about resale, whether I buy a piano and have it restored, or just buy a used piano in good condition. My question about rebuilding was whether or not I could get a decent one, rebuilding it, for just $8000. I know I have read on here that rebuilding can run into $20-30,000. I would never dream of putting that kind of money in an upright, even if I had that much to spend. I currently own a 1915 era Heintzman player piano that belonged to my wife's grandparents in Toronto. The player unit works because we had it fixed some years ago, but it would need new action, strings, dampers, etc. I was told at the time that the cost was really high, and of course there is no way to know how it would turn out. It hasn't been played or tuned for about 25 years and is basically dead. I would like to play the piano I buy and be happy with it as it is now. No surprises. I have looked at Rick Jones' website and they seem to have a lot of Yamaha and Kawai uprights in a decent price range, but most are pretty old and still in original condition it seems. I would have to travel 500 miles to go see them and play each to be sure before buying one. That may be an option, but I am not sure either of these brands will have the tone I like. It is a long way for me to travel.

It is much easier to position and adjust the hammer strike on a vertical piano than on a grand.

Wish I could get my hands on one of those Fandrich pianos.

I have only read about the Frandrich upright design, and from what I've read, I'm sure it offers great improvement. Someday I may have the good fortune to see and play one. My question is; how is the striking of the string from the opposite side and direction compensated?

Read the patent: http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4953433.pdf

...and the other one:
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5320018.pdf

I do most of my practicing using professional headphones and it sounds just fine. The sound system in the N3, while not in the same league as a nine footer - that's a very large sound board to compete against, should make the choice between an upright and a hybrid, at least for some, easier.

For me, the action comes first and the sound a close second. I'm more interested in playing a grand piano action and am willing to make sacrifices in the sound.

I wouldn't look at any piano - acoustic, digital, or hybrid - as an investment. When you factor in tunings, maintenance, and depreciation, what you have left are the words of the salesman. Buy what you want, buy what you like, buy what you can afford, but don't think of it as a financial investment, it's really an emotional investment.