Hi

I am having trouble with regulating an almost brand new heintzman grand. The hammer distance was way to close to the strings. I regulated them to the specs I have in the piano action book but the structure seems to be wrong. Did anyone have something similar?

What do you mean by "the structure seems to be wrong"? That is not really terminology used in the context of regulation. Are you familiar and comfortable with, as well as experienced in, grand regulation?

Hi William, and welcome to the Piano World Forums!

I'm curious... are you a piano tech, or a do-it-yourselfer?

Hammer blow distance on a grand is usually about 1.75 inches, but varies per manufacturer; not sure what you mean by "structure" issues.

You might get more responses on the Piano Technician's forum, but what ever you do, don’t mention that you are a DIYer (whether you are or not ).

Good luck!

Rick

Do you mean geometry?, Are you french Canadian? If so maybe I can help you, maybe.

A new Heintzman(chinese) is not going to have the same specs as an old canadian Heintzman found in that book.
Get the specs from the manufacturer. Specs are only a starting point. No piano save for Yamaha or Kawai is going to conform entirely to any printed spec.

Did you check the glider bolts?

It seems to me that the reason your having a problem is because the action spread is wrong. Find out what is the right distance for that piano action and check yours.

Nice to see someone that knows the difference between a real Heintzman and a copy made in China.

A REAL Heintzman hasn't been made for years - perhaps since the late sixties. The original company went out of business years ago, and an Ontario court judge ruled that the name Heintzman was not to be used in Canada (again, ever).

I found a copy of the court order a few years ago online and read it - it's intent was very clear. Tried to find it again with no luck.

Back to the problem: Curry has provided the best clue.

Glenn

The new China Heintzmans IMO are very good copies. I don't like the "dipped in plastic and hung to dry" finish tho.

She got sick in 1979. There was a concert out here in Whistler at that time, in the home of one of Bill’s children. Dr. Anton Querti, a long time family friend performed, and most of the family was there with the exception of Bill’s brothers and uncle. After that Bill took his wife anywhere in the world she want to see and then lost her.

The youngest daughter told me that selling the company broke Bill’s heart and he never walked into a piano store again. Moved to the New Mexico coastline, and bought a large sailboat.
The company sold in January 1981.Furniture maker Sklar Pepplar purchased the assets, drawings and machinery.

Production was resumed on a small scale for uprights, intending for full production in ’82, but it was not to be. Machinery and drawings sold to China.

The new Heintzman instrument bears no resemblance to the original with the exception that they are both musical instruments. They are completely different animals, so the specs for regulation have to come from the maker as George mentioned.

Actually, the case was against the Music Stand. The judge ruled that the name Heintzman meant a quality made in Canada piano and thus the Music Stand and its owner, Akos Jankura, who bought the Heintzman assets from Sklar Pepplar could not use the name Heintzman on Korean pianos.

Take care,

Steve

I'm just wondering where the New Mexico coast is.

Yeah, that New Mexico coastline is gorgeous.

The only coastline that I have ever seen that can compare is in Saskatchewan. Just south of Regina, I think. Funny...didn't see too many sailboats there.

Sorry - couldn't help myself.

Well,
I am only repeating a story told to me by family members. Bill sold the company, moved to NM and purchased a large sailboat.
If PW members have more information about the original Heintzman family then post it.

Obviously you would know more that me, but I've been told by more than one Heintzman dealer that the China factory uses the original Heintzman tooling and designs. And the ones I've played seemed to feel and sound very similar to the old Heintzman uprights. Maybe it was my imagination, or wishful thinking??

I lowered the blow distance 6 months ago and raised the let off, drop and adjusted the backcheck. It seemed to work but when I came back 6 months after, the backcheck was not catching anymore and the hammers were jumping. Like if the let off was now too high. I have been told by another technician that the last technician that did the job messes up actions. The technician regulates hammer height to about an inch from the string. He has seen about 6-7 pianos like this. Some notes have no let-off, is it because the repetition spring is too strong?

All the machinery and tooling eventually ended up in China.
Here is a photo set of the original Heintzman upright with the patented agraffe bridge. The last photo is the grand version of same thing. So open up one of the new Heintzman’s and I doubt you will see this design.

Heintzman & Co Patented Agraffe Bridge

William;

There will not be much in the way of success to patch regulate some other technicians work, especially if the work has been completed incorrectly.

Get the geometry measurements from the manufacturer, or one of the dealers who sell this instrument. Then start from the key frame and work up. It is the only way to solve the problems you are experiencing there.

With intricate work to complete such as regulation of a grand action this cannot be solved over the internet.

Best of luck.

I've checked my specs this morning and the key height is 1/16 lower may be less and key dip is a bit smaller than 3/8 b less than 1/16. Do you think this small difference could make a difference? The rest seems to be okay. I just think its strange that I don't have much play on the backcheck and the let off worked fine 6 months ago and now the action is different.

Ok William,

Two things you have stated;

One is that you have been informed about the previous technician who messes up actions as per your statement.

Secondly, you ask if I think a small difference could make a difference. While it doesn’t matter much what I think, I can tell you this;

Something there is making a difference. I can’t see what it is from here. The very best thing to do is take the action rack off the keyboard and start at the beginning again; bed the frame, set the keyboard to the correct height, and go from there. You will find the error eventually. Not enough key dip can make hammer sets bounce.

With all due respect, your questions demonstrate that you do not have the understanding of the intricate inter-dependencies of the various measurements and regulation steps which is required to get a grand action performing to high standards. I strongly suggest bringing in a good technician to look at it and regulate as needed. If your dealer cannot set you up with a good technician, there is a lot of information in the PW archives on how to find one.

Thanks Dan. I think you have the best logic answer. I'll start from the beginning of the regulation steps and work the way up. I have to find the problem! It's impossible that the problem cannot be solved this way! I've regulated grands before and never had problems like this.

Yes when things like this happen I just go back to the beginning and do it all over. Then I know that the whole thing is correct.

Well hopefully; if not maybe I should be mowing lawns or something….best of luck with the repairs there. Call the local dealer for regulation specs.

When I visited the Beijing factory some ten years ago there were a few machines in evidence that had come from the original Heintzman factory. As was some of the original tooling and pattern work. But other equipment was also being used. During the first few years of Chinese production a former Canadian factory plant manager—James Moffat?—made a number of trips to the Beijing factory to help the new company start production. I don’t know how long this relationship lasted.

The basic designs of the original Heintzman were being used but design is one thing and execution is another. I did not examine the drawings and did not spend enough time in the factory to see just how accurately—in reference to the original designs—the new pianos were being built. It would be highly unlikely if the new pianos were exactly the same as the originals. In every situation like this that I have observed significant—sometimes deliberately, sometimes unintentionally—changes creep into the process. Inevitably materials specifications are changed. Changes creep in when old frame patterns are adapted to fit a new foundry’s process or when entirely new patterns are made. Actions are changed because the originals are simply not available. Hammers will be made to different specifications. And on and on….

As well—and beyond the obvious—one of the difficulties every new manufacturer faces when undertaking a task like this is that not all aspects of an original design as it was actually being produced by the original manufacturer were documented. This was particularly in older factories where a basic design tended to be regarded at as an ever-changing and evolving thing. Changes would creep in as individual workers faced problems and worked out solutions more-or-less on the fly. There would be one small change somewhere that would affect everything down the line slightly. Workers would adapt but nothing would be written down. All of these changes would go into making the resulting piano what it was but there would be no way for the new manufacturer to exactly duplicate them.

ddf

One thing in the design that did not change is the decal on the soundboard. Everything else well...........

Rod, I think the decals HAVE changed. Don't they state "Hanover Ontario" as the (suggested) place of manufacture? (as opposed to the old Toronto decals)