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#1637951 - 03/10/11 03:24 AM Just another DP vs Acoustic topic
zeddead Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/09/11
Posts: 13
I’d like to raise again the topic which causes so much flood.

Digital piano vs Acoustic Piano

Digital piano is thought to be unable to reproduce all nuances and shades of the performance that can reproduce acoustic pianos. Many musicians say that even high profile models are unable to do that. But there are few who mention those nuances. So what are they?

In other words, what is the limitation for a digital piano nowadays?

Is it possible that old pianists are too conservative and just don’t follow modern technologies?

Because all digital stuff sounds dead for them.

As far as I know modern digital pianos with SuperNatural technology are able to reproduce natural dynamics without leaps, at the same time they contain realistic samples.

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#1637954 - 03/10/11 03:37 AM Re: Just another DP vs Acoustic topic [Re: zeddead]
cmrva Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 04/05/07
Posts: 17
Loc: Richmond, VA
I play both, still love the sound of acoustic. Digital is all I play when jamming with friends for the obvious hauling issues.
I have owned almost a dozen digital keyboards over the years and you're right, the advances these days are amazing. In fact I play a $600 digital now I purchased at Costco that does 100 times more than my former on stage gear from 20 years ago. my musician friends I play with think I have some state of the art synth!

The other part you haven't mentioned- the sound of a digital keyboard must come through amp/speaker or combo and that's where most people scrimp and end up with a terrible sound. I use two (Yep two) of the highest end roland keyboard amp combo's to be able to reproduce the stereo effects and get deeper bass than a 9 foot grand. So my amps cost twice the cost of the keyboard and in my mind needs to- that's what your ears hear. It sounds awesome when jamming. When at home? It's always the acoustic grand for me, nothing can touch it yet. Just hit a nice note or chord and press down on the sustain pedal. You will know the difference between real pianos and digital ones after 3 seconds. Can't duplicate the sustain and natural note decay perfectly, and the harmonics of hammers, strings and wood seem more lifelike than any perfectly set up synthsizer.
_________________________
cmrva
Richmond, VA
Keyboard junkie, still want to rock after all these years

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#1637984 - 03/10/11 05:58 AM Re: Just another DP vs Acoustic topic [Re: zeddead]
bennevis Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 1398
I feel that only fully-modelled DPs (i.e. the Roland V-Piano and V-Grand) can get anywhere near reproducing the nuances of an acoustic, and that's what I play on at home. The sustain, decay, tonal production at all dynamic levels (and the way it changes with force of attack, touch, and staccato v legato playing), the sympathetic vibrations of other strings, and resonances are all there (and customizable to your liking - including the detuning of individual 'strings'), which I haven't found in any other (sampled) DP. Which is why I actually prefer it to most acoustic uprights (which lack the bass response and grand piano key action), though not to acoustic grands 6 ft or larger.

How much computer processing power is required to reproduce all this stuff is beyond my imagination, but it works....

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#1638061 - 03/10/11 09:07 AM Re: Just another DP vs Acoustic topic [Re: cmrva]
Hop Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 650
Loc: Hudson, FL
Originally Posted By: cmrva
I play both, still love the sound of acoustic. Digital is all I play when jamming with friends for the obvious hauling issues.

The other part you haven't mentioned- the sound of a digital keyboard must come through amp/speaker or combo and that's where most people scrimp and end up with a terrible sound. I use two (Yep two) of the highest end roland keyboard amp combo's to be able to reproduce the stereo effects and get deeper bass than a 9 foot grand. So my amps cost twice the cost of the keyboard and in my mind needs to- that's what your ears hear. It sounds awesome when jamming. When at home? It's always the acoustic grand for me, nothing can touch it yet. Just hit a nice note or chord and press down on the sustain pedal. You will know the difference between real pianos and digital ones after 3 seconds. Can't duplicate the sustain and natural note decay perfectly, and the harmonics of hammers, strings and wood seem more lifelike than any perfectly set up synthsizer.


Couldn't agree more. An good acoustic grand is sublime. A very good or excellent grand is even more sublimer. BTW, I too play both and usually use headphones with my Roland FP-5. Perhaps this is not the right thread, but I'd be interested in hearing more about amp and speaker selection for when I want to hit the road.

Hop


Edited by Hop (03/10/11 09:08 AM)
_________________________
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#1638101 - 03/10/11 10:00 AM Re: Just another DP vs Acoustic topic [Re: zeddead]
turandot Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 6739
Loc: torrance, CA
Quote:
Many musicians say that even high profile models are unable to do that. But there are few who mention those nuances. So what are they?

In other words, what is the limitation for a digital piano nowadays?

Is it possible that old pianists are too conservative and just don’t follow modern technologies?


The main limitation, as described well by CMRVA, is in the output, not the input. Without exception, cheesy onboard speakers do not do justice to the chips they serve. Even in the exceptions a better sound is achieved through employing a well-placed array of cheesy speakers (think early Bose speaker technology) with good crossovers rather than anything approaching state-of-the-art speaker technology.

Heard through high-end headphones, that limitation goes away, and the main limitations (to my ears) are the flattened metallic sound response produced by high-velocity strikes (ff or more) and the lack of tonality in the highest treble octave. I certainly don't obsess over those things. I'm just mentioning them because there's definitely room for improvement.

It's best to not concern oneself with all-or-nothing opinions, whether they come from older conservative types or younger tech-spec types. Most who rule out digitals do not follow the advances in digital technology and rule out the digital category on the grounds that the sound is processed. Those who rule out acoustics often have a frame of reference of acoustics that are substandard either by design or condition.

For better and worse, digitals are extremely consistent. For better and worse, acoustics are quirky. For recreating written piano lit in solo performance, acoustics have the other hand. For creating new music, digitals are very compelling for a number of reasons.

Just play what suits you. Having both is a great idea when affordable. No need for an either/or.
_________________________
Will Johnny Come Marching Home?
The fate of the modern wartime soldier

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#1638248 - 03/10/11 02:24 PM Re: Just another DP vs Acoustic topic [Re: turandot]
FogVilleLad Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 4673
Loc: San Francisco
T-dot, well said.

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#1638286 - 03/10/11 03:33 PM Re: Just another DP vs Acoustic topic [Re: zeddead]
Ken S Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/01/09
Posts: 41
Loc: San Diego, CA
We held a seminar at our store on "how to buy a used piano", and when the subject of digital pianos came up, everyone got very animated and had tons of questions. So, at the end of this month we're having an Acoustic VS Digital workshop. I'm looking forward to seeing more ideas and opinions on this thread!
_________________________
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Jazz piano student
Greene Music San Diego, CA
http://www.greenemusic.com
Dealer for new Steinway & Sons, Yamaha acoustic,
and Yamaha Clavinova digital pianos
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http://www.steinway.com/teachers/kenschoenwetter

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#1638391 - 03/10/11 06:41 PM Re: Just another DP vs Acoustic topic [Re: zeddead]
master88er Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/15/07
Posts: 593
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
One of the greatest piano teachers of all time, Mattahi, taught that there were 7 distinct sounds a pianist could get out of any note if the finger/wrist were adjusted to influence the blow to the string by the hammer. Let me see you do THAT on a digital piano!
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R.KASSMAN, Purveyor of Fine Pianos
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SF Area Dealer: Steingraeber•Sauter•Estonia•Burger&Jacobi•Kayserburg•Brodmann•Ritmüller
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#1638601 - 03/11/11 05:43 AM Re: Just another DP vs Acoustic topic [Re: master88er]
bennevis Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 1398
Originally Posted By: master88er
One of the greatest piano teachers of all time, Mattahi, taught that there were 7 distinct sounds a pianist could get out of any note if the finger/wrist were adjusted to influence the blow to the string by the hammer. Let me see you do THAT on a digital piano!


I routinely get more than 7 distinct sounds out of any note on my V-Piano - and I'm nowhere near the Pletnev class in terms of tonal control & variety cry. Frankly, if I had only $7K to spend on a new piano, I'd rather have the V-Piano than any acoustic, which at this price range has poor tonal response (especially in the bass) and wouldn't stand up to ff playing without the sound becoming ugly. (Yes, I've compared them directly).

On a modelled digital like the V-Piano, there's no stepping or looping: the sounds are generated from scratch, which means that theoretically there's an infinite gradation between fff and ppp, and staccato and legato - just like on an acoustic. But the difference is that on an acoustic, you're limited by the length of the strings, and for me, all uprights of any size and all grands less than 6 ft long sound shallow in their bass compared to my V-Piano (and again, I've compared directly with prestige grands including Blüthner and Bechstein) though of course, nothing beats a great acoustic grand in terms of overall playing experience. And an upright's key action is limiting because of its reliance on springs, which my digital isn't: I can play rapid repeated notes on it as fast as I can on a well-regulated grand (without the need for its keys to fully return), and it has escapement system too.

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#1638618 - 03/11/11 06:42 AM Re: Just another DP vs Acoustic topic [Re: zeddead]
EssBrace Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 1539
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
I know this is a controversial topic, but it is interesting too. Having played exclusively digitals for 20 years I bit the bullet and got myself a Yamaha GC1 5'3" grand piano about five weeks ago (couldn't accommodate bigger).

I should say I've owned many many digital pianos including the Roland V-Piano, two other Supernatural-equipped Rolands and a Yamaha GranTouch (with full grand piano action).

My first impression of the acoustic was one of total wonderment at the....well, the....I don't know how to properly describe it....the amount of information in the sound (this is the best I can do). So I would say the nuances are about resonance, harmonics, overtones and....sustain. That quite shocked me, the length of the sustain...it just kind of goes on forever. An acoustic piano feels and sounds like a living thing and whilst I agree the V-Piano has some qualities absent in ALL other digitals it is still a long way off that feeling of "aliveness" (I know that word doesn't exist!).

Fast-forward to now...I have this small grand piano at home and I'm not playing it. I've arranged for the dealer to take it back. Why? It's too loud. WAY too loud. And the bass and lower mids are ugly (for want of a better word). That tuneless thud/twang that small grands and uprights tend to give in the lower areas I just cannot live with. That is 20 years of having digitals for you...they are phenomenal in the bass - for obvious reasons - you are hearing a 9 foot piano.

But the nuances are all there in an acoustic and are largely absent in all digitals...if you can mentally block out the bad bits (the unmusical bass and drifting tuning) and enjoy the good bits for what they are I think a decent acoustic offers an experience that stimulates ALL the senses. I now never would knock acoustics...but they are not for me until and unless I can get a reasonably large, sound-proof room in which I can fit a quality grand piano of at least seven feet in length. Until then....digitals I'm afraid.

Just my thoughts...

Steve
_________________________
Roland RD-1000
Nord Piano 88
Yamaha AvantGrand N3
Kawai MP10

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#1638641 - 03/11/11 07:27 AM Re: Just another DP vs Acoustic topic [Re: zeddead]
PianoMan1958 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/13/10
Posts: 484
Loc: Tennessee
I play a nice digital piano in our jazz group and have done several studio recording with higher end digitals; however, no digital I've played so far compares (whether thru studio headphones, high end PA's, amps, etc.) to when I sit down to either my Yamaha C5 or Kawai KG 5 (at church) grand and play. Sure the digitals are fun to jam with or play in a remote setting but there's just something special (besides the obvious tone, overtones, etc.) about playing a good acoustic grand.
_________________________
Jack in TN

Plays:
Yamaha C5 grand (home)
Kawai KG5 grand (church)
Roland RD300GX digital (jazz group)

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#1638647 - 03/11/11 07:43 AM Re: Just another DP vs Acoustic topic [Re: zeddead]
Rank Piano Amateur Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/11/07
Posts: 1471
The comments above, while interesting and potentially enlighening, focus on the sound produced. I would like to focus on the experience of playing the instrument.

To be brief, there is nothing like playing an acoustic piano. You are playing a musical instrument, and you and the piano together are producing music. Granted, pianos are machines, but they have myriad moving parts, and they produce nothing without you.

So if the experience of playing is important to you, in my view an acoustic piano is the right choice. Incidentally, the experience of playing is a vital part of playing the piano for me.

There has to be a reason that most piano teachers insist that their pupils play on acoustic pianos. They can't all be Luddites.

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#1638650 - 03/11/11 07:47 AM Re: Just another DP vs Acoustic topic [Re: EssBrace]
bennevis Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 1398
Originally Posted By: EssBrace
I know this is a controversial topic, but it is interesting too. Having played exclusively digitals for 20 years I bit the bullet and got myself a Yamaha GC1 5'3" grand piano about five weeks ago (couldn't accommodate bigger).

I should say I've owned many many digital pianos including the Roland V-Piano, two other Supernatural-equipped Rolands and a Yamaha GranTouch (with full grand piano action).

My first impression of the acoustic was one of total wonderment at the....well, the....I don't know how to properly describe it....the amount of information in the sound (this is the best I can do). So I would say the nuances are about resonance, harmonics, overtones and....sustain. That quite shocked me, the length of the sustain...it just kind of goes on forever. An acoustic piano feels and sounds like a living thing and whilst I agree the V-Piano has some qualities absent in ALL other digitals it is still a long way off that feeling of "aliveness" (I know that word doesn't exist!).

Fast-forward to now...I have this small grand piano at home and I'm not playing it. I've arranged for the dealer to take it back. Why? It's too loud. WAY too loud. And the bass and lower mids are ugly (for want of a better word). That tuneless thud/twang that small grands and uprights tend to give in the lower areas I just cannot live with. That is 20 years of having digitals for you...they are phenomenal in the bass - for obvious reasons - you are hearing a 9 foot piano.

But the nuances are all there in an acoustic and are largely absent in all digitals...if you can mentally block out the bad bits (the unmusical bass and drifting tuning) and enjoy the good bits for what they are I think a decent acoustic offers an experience that stimulates ALL the senses. I now never would knock acoustics...but they are not for me until and unless I can get a reasonably large, sound-proof room in which I can fit a quality grand piano of at least seven feet in length. Until then....digitals I'm afraid.

Just my thoughts...

Steve



That's interesting, as I also played on a 5 ft Yamaha baby grand when I was away on holiday a few weeks ago, and the sound from about C3 down really wasn't up to scratch (the bottom notes were just amorphous thuds of indeterminate pitch, so lacking in fundamentals were they) though the uppers were lovely (apart from the fact the overall sound was too bright for my taste) - initially, at least. It was nice to play it for a short time, but I really couldn't live with it long term. After about 10 days of playing it, I was looking forward to getting home and playing on my V-Piano again.

The Yamaha's huge amount of overtones was enticing to begin with, but rapidly palled when I found how little tonal variation I could get out of it (it just started from very bright at ppp to, er, very very bright & strident at fff). But its volume was fine by me because I've always played my V-Piano at the same volume levels ever since I bought it, and never turned it down.

But on the V-Piano, I have increased its sustain ('decay time' parameter) to +70 and I now get sustain as good and long as on a concert grand. And of course, no looping.

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#1638654 - 03/11/11 07:56 AM Re: Just another DP vs Acoustic topic [Re: Rank Piano Amateur]
bennevis Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 1398
Originally Posted By: Rank Piano Amateur
The comments above, while interesting and potentially enlighening, focus on the sound produced. I would like to focus on the experience of playing the instrument.

To be brief, there is nothing like playing an acoustic piano. You are playing a musical instrument, and you and the piano together are producing music. Granted, pianos are machines, but they have myriad moving parts, and they produce nothing without you.

So if the experience of playing is important to you, in my view an acoustic piano is the right choice. Incidentally, the experience of playing is a vital part of playing the piano for me.

There has to be a reason that most piano teachers insist that their pupils play on acoustic pianos. They can't all be Luddites.


The playing experience is exactly the reason I ended up choosing the V-Piano. Do try it out (or the V-Grand, even better) for yourself - you may well be pleasantly surprised. I play on mine 3-4 hours every day and just love it to bits: its response to every minute change in my touch or attack, or the way I balance different polyphonic melodic lines ('voices') or notes within chords, the fact that it seems to have limitless amount of power - just like on a concert grand, in fact: I can easily 'go beyond the tone' of uprights and baby grands, but not on concert grands or the V-Piano. And all the different resonances are there: from other undamped strings when the sustaining pedal is depressed, to soundboard etc - it just feels very 'alive'. I get a 'connection' with it that I can't on any other DP, to the extent that once I start playing, I forget that the sound is entirely computer-generated.

By the way, I come from an entirely acoustic (& classical) background, and only played on digitals for the first time last year after decades (I won't say how many.. ;)) on acoustics of all sorts.

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#1638715 - 03/11/11 09:55 AM Re: Just another DP vs Acoustic topic [Re: zeddead]
Mark... Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 3678
After I got my problematic Estonia L190. I gave my adult son my Digital Kawai ES4. I just couldn't play it anymore. The acoustic just blew it away. It was like kissing your sister... laugh
_________________________


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#1844292 - 02/14/12 05:59 AM Re: Just another DP vs Acoustic topic [Re: zeddead]
zeddead Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/09/11
Posts: 13
up

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#1844293 - 02/14/12 06:11 AM Re: Just another DP vs Acoustic topic [Re: zeddead]
zeddead Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/09/11
Posts: 13
So..after with long discussion i am confused..
Can anyone help me..Is roland fp-7 or roland fp4-f very close to real piano?

In other words how hard to contol music from your fingers in comparison with real acoustic piano?

Can i play serious classical music on these pianos?

Can they give me such range of dynamic,control e.t.c to reproduce small nuances,mood.

If can't..i'll prefer change music instument from keys to classical guitar...


Edited by zeddead (02/14/12 06:11 AM)

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#1844301 - 02/14/12 07:25 AM Re: Just another DP vs Acoustic topic [Re: zeddead]
Dave Horne Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 3993
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
zed, how many hours have you logged on a piano or keyboard?
_________________________
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#1844305 - 02/14/12 07:32 AM Re: Just another DP vs Acoustic topic [Re: zeddead]
zeddead Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/09/11
Posts: 13
"zed, how many hours have you logged on a piano or keyboard?"

Sorry,What did you mean?


Edited by zeddead (02/14/12 07:36 AM)

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#1844308 - 02/14/12 07:39 AM Re: Just another DP vs Acoustic topic [Re: zeddead]
Dave Horne Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 3993
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
How many hours have you played on a keyboard?

If you play 30 minutes per day for one year, you've accumulated less than 200 hours.

Roughly speaking, how many hours of piano\keyboard playing do you have under your belt?
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#1844309 - 02/14/12 07:39 AM Re: Just another DP vs Acoustic topic [Re: zeddead]
Rickster Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/25/06
Posts: 6030
Loc: Georgia
The digital piano has its place in the world of music, a pretty big place, evidently. I’m thinking that a lot of churches are getting rid of their acoustic and getting high-end digital pianos. This is how I acquired my vintage Yamaha C7.

With that said, I think one can play most any kind of music they want to play on a nice, weighted key digital piano; and, it’s always in tune.

I have a decent digital piano, a Casio Privia PX310, and it is fun to play, though I rarely ever use all the buttons, bells and whistles on it. It is a nice decoy piano so that when my two young grandchildren come over for a visit, it keeps them from banging on my real pianos! The call the digital “the funky piano”, and they prefer it over my acoustic pianos. smile

Nothing wrong with a “funky piano”. laugh

Rick
_________________________
Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel

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#1844311 - 02/14/12 07:48 AM Re: Just another DP vs Acoustic topic [Re: Rickster]
zeddead Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/09/11
Posts: 13
Dave Horne, i've played 7 years in musical school. After was long period without music( maybe 5-6 years).

Now i try play not less than 1 hour on my old acoustic piano.
But acoustic piano too expensive for me now..i want replace it by digital.

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#1844314 - 02/14/12 07:49 AM Re: Just another DP vs Acoustic topic [Re: zeddead]
zeddead Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/09/11
Posts: 13
Dave Horne, i've readed a lot of topics on pianoworld..so many different opinions about digitals.

But i'd prefer hear opinion about digitals from good piano teacher or classical musician:)

I do not know who is behind the nicknames:( So i think in discussion about digitals a lot of noise.


Edited by zeddead (02/14/12 07:53 AM)

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#1844319 - 02/14/12 08:06 AM Re: Just another DP vs Acoustic topic [Re: zeddead]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2415
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
There are plenty of good reasons to get a digital, especially if it's the only option.
Fp-7F is a fine choice.
Don't worry if it's the same as an acoustic, or not. Just worry about playing and enjoying the music.

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#1844329 - 02/14/12 08:21 AM Re: Just another DP vs Acoustic topic [Re: zeddead]
Dave Horne Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 3993
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
zed, you will find highly respected individuals (teachers and performers) with completely opposite views on digital pianos.

The only opinion that really matters is yours ... and that's why I asked how many hours you have under your belt. We don't know if you're a beginner with no experience or a seasoned professional with limited knowledge and experience with digitals.

Realize that no matter what you buy, you can always sell it or trade it in later.
_________________________
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#1844333 - 02/14/12 08:28 AM Re: Just another DP vs Acoustic topic [Re: zeddead]
zeddead Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/09/11
Posts: 13
I think that i am rather amateur with experience only on acoustic piano.

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#1844339 - 02/14/12 08:36 AM Re: Just another DP vs Acoustic topic [Re: zeddead]
zeddead Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/09/11
Posts: 13
I just can't get rid out of the feeling that digital piano is calculate music through the microcontrollers and not give full control of music(.

The feeling that on acoustic piano you can add some new in melody than on electric piano.
Feeling that on digital piano you will be just pressing on keys and getting louder or quieter sounds with very limited dynamics.

But I hope that it just feeling.


Edited by zeddead (02/14/12 08:42 AM)

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#1844342 - 02/14/12 08:40 AM Re: Just another DP vs Acoustic topic [Re: zeddead]
Dave Horne Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 3993
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
Originally Posted By: zeddead
I just can't get rid out of the feeling that digital piano is calculate music through the microcontrollers and not give full control of music(


Listen to recordings of both and see if you can tell which is digital and which is acoustic (though all recordings will have to go through an amplifier and speakers).
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#1844348 - 02/14/12 08:50 AM Re: Just another DP vs Acoustic topic [Re: Dave Horne]
zeddead Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/09/11
Posts: 13
Quote:
Listen to recordings of both and see if you can tell which is digital and which is acoustic (though all recordings will have to go through an amplifier and speakers).


Of course, in most cases i'd not distinguish gigital from acoustic.

Rougly saying i am think what on digital piano in most cases musician play "the same melody" rather than on acoustic there different pianists can play same melody but with very different mood (not only tempo and sound dynamic).

But it just opinion of amateur.




Edited by zeddead (02/14/12 08:51 AM)

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#1844525 - 02/14/12 02:09 PM Re: Just another DP vs Acoustic topic [Re: zeddead]
ZacharyForbes Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/10
Posts: 1306
Well last night I had another performance at my Jazz Workshop here in Nashville. They have a Steinway B that I performed on. I've owned nothing but digitals in the time I've been playing, but have owned the AvantGrand N1 for the last 8 months. I am still told, while my solo ideas are great, I'm not making the piano sing. There just isn't a comparison to playing routinely on an acoustic. It's darn near like an electric bass player picking up an upright.
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