What is it?

What is the correct finger technique to use (if there is such a thing)?

This is a broad question that doesn't really have a simple answer. Once you understand the style and sonic quality of Baroque keyboard music, you have to find the techniques that work for you. However, there are two things that I have found particularly important in playing Bach:

1. If you use little or no pedal (my approach), then you must learn to hold down notes with your fingers for the proper duration. You can't depend on the pedal to sustain notes while you move your hands to do something else. In particular, if you let go of a note in one voice prematurely to keep the other voices going, then you can quickly damage the continuity and phrasing of the voices that gives them their distinctive identity.

2. Finger substitution is invaluable and should be frequently considered (i.e. pressing a note with one finger, then adding another finger so that you can move the first finger on to something else while the substituted finger continues to sustain the note). This is a common technique in organ, but I learned it early from one of my piano teachers and now use it all the time.

Just MHO.

Gomtorus, playing Bach well is very hard. I found the 12 shorter Preludes by Bach as a good introduction to the finger technique required. Just make sure to get a good edition so that careful fingering decisions have been made. There are many books written on the style and practice of Bach... try Ralph Kirkpatrick for example. Also, listen to lots an lots of Bach recordings...Glenn Gould is always good. And don't forget, as F.Chopin wrote, "Practice Bach constantly. That will be your best means to progress."

There's a book called "Bach's Keyboard Technique," where the author, one Quentin Faulkner, collects various texts from letters, books, etc, about JS Bach's technique at the keyboard. Concorida House printed it, I got my copy from either Amazon or a local music shop -- can't remember which.

Other then the very few instances where JSB left fingering for his music, the rest of it draws from his contemporaries, and a lot from CPE Bach's writings, the Clavierbuchlein for Wilhelm Freidmann Bach, and people who studied and worked with JSB.

Some of it centers on fingering, some of it on how the man sat and played.

I found it a dry but illuminating read. I suspect I'll be going back to it as my studies progress. Some of the stuff in that book is over my head still.

In a nutshell, the old man had a very quiet technique, he barely moved, there was no tension anywhere, he taught a loose, relaxed hand, with fingers curved the way the hand naturally curves them when they're totally relaxed. His kids, and others who worked and learned with the old man, kept hammering on how relaxed he was at the keyboard. And all of it was loose -- that is, he wasn't locking anything. No stiffness, no arm-flailing, no lifting the hands high over the keyboard, no theatrics at all. And I suppose, with such a lack of stiffness, no pain or soreness, either.

He barely moved, yet a flurry of music came out of whatever it is the old man was playing.

My teacher keeps guiding me along in technique, and I"m finding that the technique Bach used and taught is still found today, and that Bach didn't come up with it.. instead, it seems to be what most every decent keyboard player has. Chopin had it and was just as fastidious as the old man in teaching it and hammering it into his student's skulls.

That brings me to the point of teachers.. I had the great fortune of finding, after much searching, a tough, demanding, yet understanding and entertaining teacher. More than a pianist, I'd also say musicologist, editor and more. This cat was a concert pianist who had to hang up the gloves. His teachings in posture echo those of Bach and Chopin. When I consciously apply all of that, I find my playing is clearer and I don't tire as much or get sore in the hands or anywhere else. Accuracy is better, too.

That you're asking specifically about Bach's techniques tells me you're hardcore -- find a hardcore classically-trained teacher who is up on such things. It may be hard to find but worth it. Not all teachers are knowledgeable about what people taught 200, 300, 400 years ago. Mine is, and I consider myself exceedingly lucky to have found one like this.

1. Think 2-3-4 as the basic Baroque core of finger pattern; 1 and 5 as occasionals where required in a run. Think of a crab, moving sideways and the playing each note under the body, then moving sideways again.

2. Forget all the romantic legato. Continuous legato is 19th C piano technique. Think articulation - separating the notes - at appropriate points. The space between. This will affect how you approach fingering.

3. As packa says, finger substitution works wonders...

And I'd recommend working out all the fingerings clearly yourself, writing them in, and sticking to them. Bach's like that. And someone else's fingering will not be the same as yours.

Excellent post stringless! I take issue with the above though. His fingers were curled - that is the tip of the thumb and all tips of the fingers in a line (as if your were to put 1 - 5 on qwert). It has more tension than your description above (which must be the default for Chopin and after folks!) but is what's required for an authentic approach.

OP - it's got to be shown by a teacher. Eglatine - I agree - another good post. Such wisdom - makes for pleasant reading.

I guess my fingers are different.. if I let 'em go slack, the fingertips are roughly in-line with the tip of the thumb. If I go slack and put them on QWERT, the thumb automagically is on the spacebar.

If I go slack on a music keyboard, my arched, curved fingers's tips go roughly where the accidentals start. My thumbs are resting almost flat, tips near the end of their keys. This accomplishes the goal the old man had in mind -- bring all the fingers to the point where you can strike any key without having to move much, if at all.

See pix below.. the pix shows my hand 100% slack, no tension on wrist or fingers at all. Completely, to turn a phrase, limp-wristed.


I had teachers that insisted on a tightly curved hand, forcibly so -- my current teacher had to perform an exorcism to get me to go floppy on the hands. Reading that Bach Keyboard Technique book also re-inforced my thought that this rigid position is an invention of early 20-th century pedagogues -- along with those terrible Schirmer editions of the old man's music. I had an organ teacher back in the late 80's that held the same thought -- that early 20th century teaching was forcing unnatural curvature. This organ teacher also told me that in his grandma's days (early 20th century), they'd place a coin on top of your hand and you couldn't let it slide off while doing scales. Medievalism!

One thing that got my attention in that Bach Keyboard Technique book is how he did fast runs -- instead of pushing on the keys, he'd bring the fingers back towards him with a snap. The few times I've tried it lends a crisp sound to the run. I'm about to get cracking on mozart's 'facile' sonata, which has nothing but runs in the 1st movment.. it is in this piece I'll try to really work this technique in -- as a surprise to my teacher.


However, I am convinced what I have is really ten thumbs

Also, it's important to remember that keyboard technique in general is different from modern piano technique. Assuming that Bach played a lot of his Preludes and Fugues on clavichord and harpsichord, he never would have had the sustaining power of the modern piano. It's very likely that when we hold a note and then substitute another finger to keep it sustained, that such sustains never could have been realized on Bach's keyboards. For reasons such as this one, I think the modern piano offers many advantages to the performer of Bach.

The techniques may well be a bit different, but the posture he favored wouldn't be -- as mentioned before, it's still taught, and it's still pretty much de-facto.. and I bet it didn't come with Bach, it had to come way, way before him. Before Buxtehude, before Praetorious.. where does it start? Who knows.

As for techniques, I use finger-swapping (organ fingering) when I run out of fingers. Or if doing so sets me up for a much better position on the next phrase.

Similarly, I use organ-type legato in music written for early piano (mozart, for example). Sure, I could use sustain pedal -- and I sometimes lightly do so -- but I prefer the more articulated sound of playing as if it were an instrument from Wolfie's era -- no pedal sustain, all legato is finger legato. But again, no hard-fast rule.. if I feel the pedal gives it more space, or more atmosphere, then I use it as well.

On the subject of playing organ music on stringed 'boards, CPE mentions that you may re-strike the pedal notes. I found that little quote in various Alfred editions of Bach's smaller organ music. If his kid's saying "re-strikes are ok" then I presume he learned it from his old man.

As for the piano.. there's enough paper evidence to suggest that not only Bach knew the piano, but helped develop it a bit, and even sold some. He got in Silbermann's* face about how weak the treble was on his early pianos. JSB later sold Silbermann's improved pianos. So if he took the time to take Silbermann to task on the piano's sound, and then to go on to sell a few of them, that tells me he had to have some trigger time on the instrument.. and I bet he loved it, once it got to his level of expectation. .

*silbermann was one of JSB's "go-to" organ builders.. he also made harpsichords and pianos, and gave us the lift-all-the-dampers sustain we know today.. only it had no pedal, in Silberman's pianos it was a hand-drawn stop. The pedal didn't come till after Mozart. I don't think any original Silbermann pianos survive. I'd love to see one.

Here's a copy made in Germany: (pix from Neupert , Germany, builder of old-school keyboards) The drawstops are along the left cheek of the piano.

And to the OP.. sorry for the thread hijack. I'll behave now.

I don't think you've hijacked the thread, I find your posts very interesting.

I tried the hand position described and it works quite well.

I hope my teacher will let me use this technique.

I am starting lessons next Friday.

Do I understand correctly though that this method is not suited to repertoire from the romantic era?

Lessons? Cool! I hope you enjoy that!

The thing illustrated with the photo -- the hand and body position -- that's not a method, nor technique. It's posture, and posture will be very similar for keyboards like the piano, organ, clav, harpsichord. Posture doesn't change much, if at all, no matter what time period or instrument.

How I look at it:

Posture is how you sit at the instrument.

Technique is how you interact with the instrument, how do you get the sounds you need out of it.

Technique will vary according to what music and what instrument, and what effect you seek. It can even vary between two similar instruments -- a more sensitive, subtle piano will be a bit harder to control and make sound pretty than a less sensitive one, requiring a different technique to get the sound you want.

Technique isn't cut and dry black and white. What you learn in Baroque music -- you'll use some of that with Romantic music. Every musical era takes some of the prior era with it.

Think of it this way: Every composer stands on the shoulders of those who came before.

Clear as mud, no? Just follow your teacher, but keep your BS filters turned on, and ask away here. I don't ask, because simply, I trust my teacher almost blindly. I've yet to have a bum steer from him. But the second I suspect something's amiss, you bet I'll be here, asking away.

I'll leave you with a link on Chopin's teachings. It's a good little article, deserving of attention and study. Lots of info in a little space.

Oh, and do find that book by Quentin Faulkner on Bach's Keyboard Technique.

Yes, Chopin played with fingers naturally curved rather than curled. I find it very hard to believe stringless' fingers are naturally curled still, each to his own. The other element to Bach after you've curled your fingers is, as stringless says, to put the key down by caressing it (draw the fingertips toward you).

They are indeed like that when I have no tension up or down. Dunno what that means, other than it's great for piano playing and typing. It was very easy to find. What my teacher has done beyond that is to ensure that I play from the fingers down as much as possible, leaving the wrist and arm, elbow and body to move as little as possible. Let your fingers do the playing, to twist an old ad around.

And eh, I'd call my position curved, not curled.. if I'm curling my fingers in, something came out the piano that I didn't like -- as if I'd stuck my fingers into a hot stove or something. Things with very strong dissonance make me do that sometimes, if I'm not expecting it (brain sees it on paper, but ears rebel when they hear it, and my fingers curl up and leave the keyboard as a reaction)

Here's a little clip of my hand at work. It's not playing anything real, this is just showing the natural position my hand has when 100% slack, and how easy it is to get to any note, be it black or white, with my hand like that.

One day I'll record something and post it up.

I seem to have far greater control over the dynamics of my playing when I use the Bach finger positions as described above.

I don't understand though how to draw my fingertips towards myself when playing.

You wipe the keys (but keep your arm still).

This is the correct Bach finger technique. Just play Bach like this and you will be fine.

...and hopefully not die an early age crippled.

*Sigh* Gould. Between him and Helmut Walcha (organ) I'm ruined -- I believe this is what Bach sounded like. I should find my own sound of what the old man sounded like, but Gould's sound is so persuasive, why not let it influence one's playing a bit? Just don't sit like him

To the OP: What you're trying to do is while using that slack position, put the fingertip of the note you're about to strike on the key, then pull the key towards you. Give the finger a bit of a snap back. *pop* goes the note. Put many of them together done like that, and *pop*pop*pop* you hear each one, clear and distinct, even with legato. Or that's the idea, anyway.

I've put up a short clip that hopefully shows what I mean. The more I practice it, the more integrated it becomes into all my playing. And yeah, I blurred the first bits of it a little. I hope the rest of it came out as clear as I heard it.

I'm still working on this, it takes conscious effort. This technique predates Bach, no one really knows where it came from, but Bach and others were heck bent on teaching it because it produces such crisp sound. I bet this is a huge part of why well-done Chopin reminds me of falling rain.

Don't ask. My brain's wired that way. Chopin makes me think of rain, in a most beautiful way.

it really helps to be well grounded in the execution of scales, arpeggios and exercises. they are very helpful.

good fingering is the shortest path between two points to put if kind of simply.. it becomes second nature if the 'steps' are pre-learned.

excellent post stringless.

the 'pinching' technique produces a great clarity.. the notes sound exactly when they are supposed to.

Thank you for the clip, it helps to see it and not just read about it.

Hi, chopin_r_us,
My name is Paola and I am a new member here, even though I have been reading postings on this list for quite a time.
Long time ago, I had a substitute teacher from East Europe; she tried explaining to me various tensions in my playing hands; the thing is, my hands looked like in picture by stringless and felt quite relaxed to me and my other teachers. Except that they weren't so, and I learned that the hard way, and too late.
Perhaps you had that kind of teacher, too? Mine spoke of some static and dynamic tensions, if I remember correctly.
I wonder if you could share what is it that you see as causing tension in the hand stringless described.

Paola, to hold a shape with your fingers or curl them takes a muscle in your forearm to contract - we call that tension. More importantly - the ligaments in the fingers are also under constant tension. The natural hand shape - hanging relaxed from your arm - only tenses as required.

Yes. Stand up, and let your arms hang loosely at your sides, relaxing the arms and hands as much as possible. Note the finger shape. You won't always be able to play with this finger shape, but it's a good baseline for evaluating how much tension you are carrying in your hands while playing in different positions.

Hello again.
Thank you for your responses, chopin_r_us and packa.
I was thinking something like this:
We approach playing by assuming certain hand position, and this way of holding the arm, forearm, wrist and hand generates certain static tensions. (They are minimal, so we often overlook them, but they are there, starting in the shoulder which holds the whole weight of the arm throughout the act.)
When we start moving our fingers, we generate dynamic tensions while still maintaining some of the static (we still hold the arm, forearm and wrist in certain "playing position" throughout playing).
These dynamic tensions are considerable.
When we stop playing, most of us just return to the stillness, i.e. static position, and all its tensions.

In doing so we never provide the playing apparatus with a way to get the accumulating tensions really released (hence the appalling rate of pianists' injuries).
Some of us were encouraged to finish the phrase with a little upward movement of the wrist, but this single motion didn't cause the injury rate to drop, so I don't believe that it could be considered a sufficient preventive action.
That's some of the things on tension I heard from my teacher.

With relation to the topic here: if we don't have the way to effectively release tensions in our hands while playing, even the best fingering won't prevent them.
(Perhaps it belongs in another thread.)

Stillness should have minimal tension.Excellent point. Tobias Matthay (you can get his books free at www.archive.org) used to say you should test for tension as you play. I don't think you can ever stop doing that. In fact, I'd say it's where most of your attention should be centered. The body will play the piano for you as long as you drop tensions as soon as they arise - something that for some reason consciousness must constantly attend to.

And for goodness's sake, leave the fallboard on!

[/quote]Excellent point. Tobias Matthay ... used to say you should test for tension as you play. I don't think you can ever stop doing that. In fact, I'd say it's where most of your attention should be centered. The body will play the piano for you as long as you drop tensions as soon as they arise - something that for some reason consciousness must constantly attend to. [/quote]
Thank you. Your posts are much better than mine!
I tried really hard to decipher Matthay's writings... Perhaps I should give it another try...
On "testing for tension" I suspect that probably all piano hopefuls have done it... The idea of "dropping tensions as soon as they arise" sounds a bit better to me; I recall that a few pianists spoke of instant release - after each single effort/note/chord, and between the notes. The thing is that this splendid idea was never brought into teaching practice: all that teachers have ever taught is temporary stillness. And both the facts and numbers on the pain-stricken hopefuls say that it didn't work too well as a preventive measure.
As you noticed, piano pedagogy delegated the responsibility for achieving tension release in the playing hand to the mind/consciousness. The thing is that it occurs as intended: in the mind - but not so much in the hand.
To me, the instantaneous tension release remains the Holy Grail of pianism.

I did the same for years! and understood nothing. It wasn't until I found an ex-student of his that it all made sense - there were quite a few of them years ago. To me achieving tension release is about acquiring a natural reflex, which in fact may reside in the spine.

That's interesting. Please, say, was that last thing what this teacher (Matthay's student) believed?
And, if so, let me ask: what about the tension in the hand/wrist/forearm area? Would developing the reflex you wrote about assure tension release there?
Or, could it suggest that the message about tension in the hand/wrist/forearm area would be stopped in the spine - thus never reaching the brain?
If so, would that be tantamount with tension release?
Or would it all mean something entirely different?
Just asking (never had a Matthay's student for a teacher).