So..after with long discussion i am confused..
Can anyone help me..Is roland fp-7 or roland fp4-f very close to real piano?

In other words how hard to contol music from your fingers in comparison with real acoustic piano?

Can i play serious classical music on these pianos?

Can they give me such range of dynamic,control e.t.c to reproduce small nuances,mood.

If can't..i'll prefer change music instument from keys to classical guitar...

Hi Zed,

I'm thinking you will get much better, and more relevant responses on the digital piano forum here on Piano World... this forum is primarily for the discussion of acoustic pianos.

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthrea...20&%20.html

All the best,

Rick

The part I underlined is interesting to me.

I didn't read or participate in your long thread, so it's possible this was covered already, but to me it depends on the 'I' more than it depends on the 'serious'ness of the music.

For example, one of the worst fits for a digital piano is heavy-weight Liszt. It has a hard time breathing properly in the confinement of digital reproduction. Notes that you really need to whack clang more than they zing. Deep bass has way too much reverb and not enough resonance.

But consider this. A lot of this heavy-weight Lizst is paraphrased or transcribed from orchestral works. When Liszt wrote his reminiscence of Bellini's opera Norma, did he realize that the vibrancy and immediacy of human voices against the backdrop of a live orchestra could not be transported into a solo piano work? Of course he did. But did that stop him? Of course it didn't.

I don't think Liszt was nearly the fuss-budget that those who bow or genuflect when they hear his name would have you think. I think he was far more obsessed with music than with his instrument. How about you?

Any digital piano is bad for playing classical music.

Thank you supplying an example of a fuss-budget. You may as well say that enjoyment is bad for you unless it's the kind of enjoyment I favor.

Liluis,

If you had written the music of which you speak, I would find it somewhat interesting to hear what you have to say. Since you didn't, I personally regard you comment as a waste of space here.

I agree, that mostly every digital piano is bad for the serious classical pianist....however, I think the Yamaha hybrids are really kool, if you have enough $$. They sound pretty damn good too.

Maybe you understand what I'm saying if I give you the next example:

What is the best tool to paint the Mona lisa? An Spray or a high quality brush?.

Or... What's the best spray for painting the mona lisa.

That would be the same.

If possible , an interpreter must have the same tool if what he's trying to do is to understand the artists of classical music.

I only wanted to make the author of this post understand that if possible he could wait a little more , get more money and buy a real piano that will be really much more expressive for the kind of music he's trying to play.

That is a completely different question. The OP asked if he could play serious classical music on a digital, not if a serious classical pianist would find it bad to play classical music on a digital.

If you regard yourself as a serious classical pianist and feel that a digital piano is bad for you, then you are a data point. If 'serious classical pianist' could be defined objectively and all members of the class polled, the results would probably vary. My guess is that almost none would choose a digital for public performance, but that opinions on a digital's use as a musical tool would vary.

The OP has to decide whether he wishes to become a musician first and foremost, or a slave to a particular instrument first and foremost. Should he choose the latter, he may spend his life considering whether the particular instrument he has at the time is really as good as the one he doesn't have. This consideration is the main item on the menu here, and is of course a boon to what remains of the acoustic piano sales market. Should he choose the former, his life will proceed in a different direction entirely.

If thats the question the answer is yes, he can play serios classical music on a digital. But he won't learn with this tool to play it seriously.

zeddead, I have played Yamaha and Roland digital pianos that have better dynamic separation than most verticals.

When playing we have to realize that these are serious instruments, yet they are not a replacement for acoustic pianos. So to answer your question: In my opinion, yes you can play serious classical music on digital pianos. Just as you can play serious classical music on organs. And, Piano music is best (in my opinion) played on acoustic pianos, yet can be played on digital pianos.

Don't underestimate the amount of 'piano' work possible on keyboards.

Liluis,

Thank you for the thoughtful reply and for the example.

A recent find at the Prado indicates that Leonardo probably executed several Mona Lisa canvasses and also points to the certainty that some of the younger painters he kept in his studio executed their own. Nonetheless, one canvas has emerged as the standard, and if you were to try to paint it, you would be attempting to replicate it whereas we know from historical data and canvasses that have surfaced and been checked for authenticity that Leonardo himself encouraged his apprentices to find their own Mona Lisa, to see the Mona Lisa their way.

I would suggest to you that the replication approach to classical music is quite different from the interpretive approach, that the lit is confined enough by the composer's manuscript, and that beyond that expressed confinement, the student should find his own Mona Lisa.

Liszt performed on a great variety of piano instruments himself. There is no mention in any of his manuscripts of a prescription for the exact piano on which the lit should be played. There is discussion on this forum regularly about which contemporary piano is best suited to specific classical lit, but that's just good fodder for discussion on a piano enthusiast forum. Liszt could hardly have anticipated such a phenomenon. I believe that for Liszt, as well as for the vast majority of composers of classical music, the music they wrote was somewhat conditioned by their instrument, but that it existed independent of their instruments.

In addition, Liszt took great liberties with how he performed and adapted the music of others. Those liberties can be seen in his transcriptions. I believe that Liszt did that because the music appealed to him, and because he wanted to work with it, certainly not replicate it.

Students of piano today are confined not only by the manuscript, but by the standard of performance set in recordings, and by the conservatism of teachers who believe that there is only one correct interpretation, the one that they personally favor. This is not Liszt's fault. He could hardly be expected to foresee the problem posed. In his day, originality was the thing.

And it doesn't end there. Should piano students of today be 'serious' enough (whatever that means) to attain the concert stage, they will be judged by an audience of which a majority will have their own favorite recorded performance to measure the performance against, and by 'professional' critics who by and large employ the same criteria, with the added measure of snootiness. It simply never ends unless the 'serious' performer reaches the level where he can call his own shots and be praised and admired for doing it..

As Dave B has pointed out, the expressive capabilities of a good digital from Roland or Yamaha can easily exceed the expressive capabilities of the entry-level 'real' piano. There certainly is torture-test classical lit which reveals digital shortcomings glaringly, but that lit is a small part of classical piano music, and that lit shines an equally glaring light on the shortcomings of the acoustic pianos that most piano students are accustomed to practice on.

What you have written here is that "any digital piano is bad for classical music. You'll have to do better than Leonardo's brush to make that argument.

I understand you are trying to be helpful to the OP, but I think it highly unlikely that the OP is anywhere remotely close to the playing level where torture test lit would pose problems. I assume that he's at a level where he wants to improve his basic playing skills, and needs an instrument to practice on. If he were beyond that, he wouldn't be asking for strangers' opinions. He would have the answers himself.

Waiting is not in his best interests.

Excellent post turandot. There is a concert pianist, I believe it's Boris Berezovsky, who said that there are literally an infinite number of ways to play a piece, therefore in that sense, he feels there's even more improvisation, which seemed to be a major component to the great pianist' of past playing, than in jazz. That may be a stretch but I understand the point.

Yes, you can. I do every day. I don't have an agp anymore as it will not fit into my home since I downsized .. and then there is the neighbor issue.

I've been playing for almost 50 years now. I've played nasty ap's.. so-so ap's, fabulous ap's, antique ap's.... you name it.

If you are a sloppy technician.. dp's will highlight your sloppiness, so in some respects I think they are a better instrument for technical training.. ear training too as they never need tuning.

I'm not talking about low end dp's. $2000 and above. I have a Kawai CN43, which is one of their mid-range models.

First of all I'm Lluis not Liluis,

Then turandot, you have your part of reason, and we have different filosofies of understanding classical music, for me, playing music is to empatize with the composer and arrive in a perfect harmony in what the composer felt and what I'm feeling and been able to live a great combination of feelings, and for you maybe is to make variations, maybe personal variations. Ofcourse the composer didn't said: to play this song you must play with this kind of piano. But remember, Chopin loved Pleyels more than any other pianos (Erards, Broadwoods). Learning classical music with a digital piano is not the same than playing classical music with an acoustic piano and even more different if the piano youre playing is the same the composer composed the piece. Can you play classical music with a digital piano? Yes. It will sound different? Yes, is this bad? For me yes, but thats so personal. What I gave was my opinion , just that, maybe I have said it so "objective" if thats the case I'm sorry.

Salute.

Salute, Lluis, and sorry about getting your name wrong.

We do have different perspectives, but it was nice exchanging views with you.

:-)

I think that the piano continues to evolve. The development of Steinway pianos over just the last 100 years, is a perfect example. It's nice to think that the pianos we're playing today are starting to fulfill the music that the great composers over the 150 years were hearing in their heads.

I wonder if Bach is sitting in heaven playing a Moog?

Lluis, my opinion is based on very limited experience with Yamaha keyboards. The circumstances were that we showed up in Livermore, California to perform at a wedding for friends. When we arrived we found that the grand piano had been rented only for the actual wedding service which was on a Sunday. The rehearsal was on Friday. What was a pianist to do? I suggested a keyboard might do the trick for the rehearsal. We scrambled and found a store that would rent a keyboard for this occasion. For what we were doing, which was pop and light classical, the keyboard was perfectly acceptable and it in no way bothered me to perform with it. I believe that it was a Yamaha 535, so it had 88 keys and they were weighted. Since I had it for a couple of days, I also put it through its paces in more demanding classical repertoire. In a word it lacked subtlety. The keyboard was touch sensitive, but not in quite the same way that an acoustic instrument is. I would suppose what bothered me the most was the rate of decay which was just plain weird.Physically it feels strange because there is no sense of aftertouch. If your intent is to use this as a substitute for an acoustic, I would recommend against it. If your purpose is "woodshedding," learning notes and then performing on an acoustic, it would work fine for that sort of thing. This was not exactly the high end of keyboards at around $500. I have also played some Yamaha Clavinovas which cost considerably more, but once again, they are not a piano and they don't feel like one.

On the plus side, they sound fabulous. I am sure that Franz Liszt would have paid a king's ransom to have had a keyboard instrument that was able to produce such sounds. We had a small amp which easily provided enough sound for the outside performance. After it was all said and done, I don't know if our friends thought that it was worth the expense of renting the Kawai grand for the performance, but it certainly helped to create the proper atmosphere.

Physically it feels strange because there is no sense of aftertouch.

Could you elaborate on that? In an acoustic piano once the hammer is in flight there's no further 'control' of the sound. How does the lack of after touch in a digital figure in?

@John Pels - yamaha dgx 5xx series have unweighted keys.

Good point. Not the example from which to generalize. John, please try an Avant Grand or V-Piano sometime and let us know what you think!

No! A digital will never take the place of a piano.

I started on a $500 piano. You can't replace the feel of a real piano. There are touches that you need to feel, and you can only get that from a "real" piano. The depth to push, and the feel. Weight of a real piano cannot be copied on a digital.

It's like playing hockey with a plastic stick. You need a wooden one! Just my comparison to hockey, not that I play hockey, but wood on a real piano and the touch is what you need and will get used to when you play on a "real" piano.

Just my opinion. Hope this helps!

That may be, but there are varying opinions.

When a pianist is working towards their classical goal, there is nothing like a "real" piano.

I have a digital that I use to work on music that I will perform, and the reason I use the digital, is so the whole house doesn't have to listen to me, because I can use headphones. But if you ask any pianist who is working seriously and especially, classical pieces, there is NOTHING like a real piano. You get STRENGTH in your fingers from a REAL piano that you can't get from any digital.

But, any piano teacher worth their weight in gold will tell you to buy a real piano. Once you are accomplished, then buy whatever you like. Experience playing lots and lots of pianos/digitals is very fun. Play on as many pianos as you can get your fingers on is always a good idea. But when your goal is to become an accomplshed CLASSICAL pianist, you must have a REAL piano. Period!

Again, to me this idea that a digital will help you in CLASSICAL playing isn't even up for debate! . . . All though I'm sure it will get debated! ...and then some! ジ

To me, these digital/pianos are missing something. This guy is probably paid to say good things about this digital piano, but trust me, he spent years training on a "real" piano. Trust me! He trained on a real piano when he took his CLASSICAL training!

Yes, that's it. There's an aftertouch! Hard to explain, but that's the exact word to discribe the touch!!!!

I should add that I "started" with a $500 piano up until I was finishing Grade 6 classical piano, but when you go onto the higher grades, the piano is going to start to know it's about to take a major 'beating"! And yes, I got a grand piano because the $500 wasn't going to be able to take what was coming next which was a beating. ジ

A real piano can take a REAL beating. A technician can calm the waters when the piano needs adjusting, but I worry that a digital piano may not fair as well, and if there is something to fix, well, I say "good luck"! with electronics!

Let me preface by saying this: What I'm about to say is not meant to disrespect, belittle, or slight those who by necessity, or by choice, have gone to the lower-end DPs.. but it has to be said. Furthermore, I come from a poor family. We had no piano. I paid for my lessons myself through oddjobs and dishwashing and whatnot, and my practice came mainly from my best friend's old Acrosonic. It was a terrible instrument, but at least it was mostly in tune. I am fully aware of the extreme sacrifice many (if not most) families have to make to afford a 1000 dollar entry-level bottom-range piano, let alone 2000 or 2500 it takes for a mid-range, decent instrument. With all that said...

I used to think like you. No DP would ever feel like a piano. This was back in the late 80's. I then abandoned music, and came back in 2007. That's 20 years of non-stop DP action and tone generator evolution. Not to mention the exponential growth of storage and compute power that makes today's crazy DPs possible.

The actions, in particular, have evolved. PHA II is a flying-hammer action -- that is, you don't have to bottom the key to make it speak. The feel of a real piano is in PHA II. And III. And in the highest-grade Yamahas and Kawais. So what is it you feel they lack? Perhaps you've only tried the low-end pianos? Which ones have you tried out?

The lower-end pianos that I've tried are lacking quite a bit. FP4, YDP123, RP101, and others like them -- to me, they felt as bad as the mid 80's stuff did. In a word, unacceptable. (please, I'm not trying to dis people who have these! It's just my observations gathered while DP shopping....)

Then I tried something a little further up the food chain, with the PHA II action. I've not looked back since. I bought it after weeks of deliberation involving a lot of playing at nice pianos vs. nice digital pianos. What I bought was an HP201, entry level mid-range piano with PHAII. This was 2007, and it's still my piano, I practice at least an hour a day every day, and it's progressed along with me, and I'm still nowhere near tapping it out. FWIW, I study classical. Kabalevsky Op. 27 right now, actually. Those familiar with it know that it can be technically demanding (for the newb or intermediate), and offers plenty of places to flaunt the abilities of a nice action that can bring out many shades of sound. That's something a mediocre piano won't quite allow for.

I can right now get about 6 shades of sound out of my piano, without software trickery. I don't use software tricks (like changing "keyweight.") I bet I can get 8 shades, in time. And maybe 10. Doubtful? Go out and try it. Try something with PHA II or III in it. I can get a really nice, quiet, clear pianissimo without using unacorda. If I then add unacorda, the clear quiet sound becomes softer, a bit darker, but not much quieter. Can just any DP do that? Can just any AP do that? No. It takes a good instrument to do that. A mediocre instrument can't make a really quiet sound unless it's aided by the "soft" pedal. A mediocre instrument, real or digital, won't be able to have many shades of sound, using the keys alone.

But not all DPs are capable. Price alone isn't a guarantee. Just like there's dreadful real pianos at the five-digit price ranges, there's dreadful digipianos at the 5000 dollar mark. Not all DP actions are the same. To paint them all with the same brush is a rather narrow thing to do, no?

If I said "All uprights are firewood," (which I don't,) I bet I'd get strung up a flagpole with piano wire here. Yet, that's just what you've done -- said that all DPs are firewood.

A nice, modern DP with a nice action will do anything you need it to do. And they just keep getting better. I just tried PHA III on an RG1F, and I also tried the VPiano. I'm favorably impressed. To be honest, though, going from PHA II to PHA III was a narrow improvement, where going from PHA to PHA II was like going from gaslight to quartz halogen. Day and night. Pick your cliche. The roland "Alpha" actions (FP4, etc) and whatever Yamaha put into the YDP and sub-5000 dollar CLPs as of 2007 was just unacceptable.

I fully believe my Roland HP201 was a much better choice than a 2000 dollar upright. Or a 2000 dollar 50-year old grand. It's not limiting me in technique. And that's not me retro-justifying my purchase -- when I pass a piano dealer, I may duck in, and try a few things. The only thing that compares to my Roland's dynamic range is a nice grand, usually the older well-maintained ones. Uprights aren't even close. Not even brand-new ones.

My HP201's blown me away to the point that my next Roland won't be a piano. I'll be adding another Roland to this house.. a Roland c-330 baroque digital pipe organ. They've managed to copy the feel of the tracker action. And since they've owned Rodgers for a long while now, they have decades of experience in digital organ sound. You see, my first love is the organ. The baroque organ, not the lush Romantic French organ.

I normally stay clear of AP vs DP threads. I felt had to add my voice to this one. To deny that the DP has achieved near-parity is like denying the fact that the infernal horseless carriage has displaced the horse and buggy, or that flatpanel TVs have displaced the bulky old CRT.

Oh, and about your argument about DPs being like a plastic hockey stick.. check out this bunch of heretical luthiers making fake stringed instruments from materials other than wood..

Just my opinion. I hope it helps.

This guy is probably paid to say good things about this digital piano, but trust me, he spent years training on a "real" piano. Trust me! He trained on a real piano when he took his CLASSICAL training!

That ... guy has a well known reputation as a concert pianist, perhaps you've heard of him? I don't know if he received money for his words though.

I'm still in the dark, perhaps someone else can explain what after touch refers to in acoustic pianos; it does has a specific meaning when used regarding digital keyboards.

Lol! Yes, I appreciate your post and I read it thoroughly. Just that I stand on what I said. I too could only afford a $500 piano when I started taking lessons. I also had to teach piano lessons to support by own cost of lessons, and money was an issue for me as well.

From my experience, students who get a digital, quit lessons. Those who have a real piano tend to stick with piano lessons longer. Just my experience.

I have played many digital/digitalgrands/digital weighted keys, and I have yet to be satisfied.

That's it. I loved my $500 "real" piano. It had the bounce and the touch I loved and needed at the time. I just loved it. And it was cheap. Go figure! Touch to me is everything and a digital just didn't do it for me.

Again, where do you go when a digital breaks down!?

Its like, what do you prefeer to shot a movie? A digital camera or use 35mm?. Analogic will always have more definition, in movies (colors and resolution) and the same with music. Digital pianos are not considered for me serious instruments for classic music.

How many people has started playing with an accousting and then passed into a digital? Almost nobody, and thats because when a pianists "feels" in his hearth the touch and the quality of an accousting understands that the digital is not the same for expressing his emotions. (nowadays)