I was talking to a friend of mine, and he was under the impression that Bostons were a step up from Kawais and Yamahas. I thought Boston was a mediocre piano using the Steinway name, but really I totally different piano.

What was the basis of your friend's logic? Kawai builds the Boston for Steinway...No? Step up in price?

I think they are pretty much on even footing (at least the non-entry level or promotional models), just a matter of personal preference.

I played one at Steinway last week. I think the Kawai K6 and K8 are nicer.

HI Zachari,
I was in Japan at the Kawai Factory where Bostons are made.
I paid close attention to the procedures and materials used for the construction of Boston pianos.
If you compare a Boston and a Kawai they are different pianos in terms of touch and sound. The share a lot in common in terms of construction methods except for Kawai's sophisticated carbon/abs action.
It is really a matter of preference but not a matter of quality or design. Practically the two brands are equal.
Therefore I don't see why one should pay the extra$$.
Good luck.

The main differences are the action, of course, and the higher cost of the Boston due to the "Steinway as middleman" mark up.

The quality of the design, materials and construction are comparable.

Which Boston is most comparible to a Kawai K6 or K8? The Boston goes to 48 correct?

Hi, John. If you're talking height, Boston uprights come in 46, 50 and 52" sizes according to Fine's listings.

Steve, you are mistaken in your comment that attributes Boston's higher cost to the "Steinway as middleman" factor. There is a "middle man" with regard to Boston pianos, true. But there is also a "middle man" with regard to Kawai pianos - that being Kawai America.

And as we've seen posted here a great number of times, these are significantly different instruments. They are manufactured in the same facility, but the actual scale designs - as has been confirmed and reconfirmed as you well know - are completely different.

The two instruments are different from one another; the prospective client should experience both, and move forward in whatever direction makes the most sense based on the client's personal preferences.

Why does one scale design cost more than another?

I'm not really known around here for defending Steinway, but I will in this instance.

Had you asked this question a few years ago, I would have said that the difference in quality between Kawai (RX series) and Boston were relatively minimal. Now that Boston updated the designs (Performance Edition), I strongly feel that they elevated their instruments to another level. A well-prepped Boston 215 PE is a formidable piano. My only gripe is the stupid soundboard decals....

The difference between Boston and Yamaha (C series) is a bit more complicated, in my mind, because there are bits and pieces of each that I like more on one than the other.

I've played on Boston and Kawai uprights, and liked both....but unfortunately, they were at different dealers on different occasions, and I can't remember which one I liked the most : (

Kawai America is a wholly owned subsidiary of Kawai, not a middle man. The main reason Kawai, and nost of the other Asian manufacturers have this subsidiary relationship is to minimize their taxes. On the other hand Boston pianos are purchased outright by Steinway who rightfilly add margin to their sales to the Steinway dealer network. These are two completely different scenarios.

I would agree however, that the pianos are of somewhat different scale designs, including differences in the wider tail, the use of all-wood and metal actions parts (as opposed to Kawai's carbon fiber action), and different hammers among others.

Kawai manufactures both instruments. As pointed out, most models are made side-by-side at Kawai's Hamamatsu factory, much with the same materials, same workmanship, and have many parts and materials in common. According to the manufacturer, the superior instrument is the Kawai. [Admittedly of course, they would have to say that even if it were not so.]

Is it your position that Steinway doesn't have a profit margin on the Boston and Essex lines?

Steve, you and I both know that in both cases there is a level between the manufacturer and the dealer.

Is it your position that Kawai America doesn't have a profit margin in Kawai pianos?

Hi Bob,

As you know, I have no direct connection with either brand. But clearly to me there is a difference in selling price between the two, at least here in the Philadelphia area. If costs are the same, then I can only say that the Philly Boston dealer is making a lot more on each sale, which is a believable thing.

Virtually everyone in the industry that I have spoken with places the two brands as very competitive, which I agree with. I personally think the "Designed by S&S" plaque comes with a steep premium, no matter who is being paid.

As an aside, there is a local concert venue here in the Philly area that had a 7 ft. Boston grand piano recently donated. We have sent a new Cunningham there as a rental regularly because performers here prefer it. I think this speaks to prep. and maintenance. This is a factor that can be almost as important as the piano chosen.

What I'm gathering from Steve's posts, 'between the lines,' is that Steinway, being Steinway, presumably has a somewhat higher markup and profit margin at that level between manufacturer and dealer. I realize this might not be right, but that's what I assumed when I saw his first reply -- and it seemed like an "of course." I mean, if someone said that Rolls Royce involves a middleman with markup and profit and then someone replied that Kia does also....


BTW: Could anyone elaborate on the differences in the action between Boston and Kawai?

There is only one possible reason for this 'aside', and that reason is not flattering.

Recently, in another thread, a question was raised about why there are not more dealer/industry members here on Piano World who represent Steinway and Yamaha. It was suggested that perhaps the success of Steinway and Yamaha in itself might be the reason.

Well, I don’t know about that, but it seems to me that when a member who does officially represent Steinway or Yamaha makes themselves known and available for informative dialog, they are immediately pounced on by the competition. No wonder there are not many of them around.

Of course, all this is way beyond my pay grade…

Rick

Speaking as someone who loves Steinway (I have one, as well as a Kawai), I don't think that what you said is applicable to what happened here. It seems that the Steinway person's reply skirted and fuzzied the issue a bit, and thus invited rejoinders, and Steve's replies to him were very respectful.

The action differences between Boston and Kawai are, IMO, the most significant. The Boston action is well described Here and Here.

The Kawai action is decribed Here and Here.

OK, let's see:

Boston:
"Solid maple (all wood, no plastic) for all moving parts. Steinway profile-shaped flanges, extruded aluminum action rails for increased stability and less frequent regulation. Steinway action geometry provides superior touch."

Kawai:
"....the revolutionary Millennium III Advanced Piano Action represents the third evolution of piano touch. Combining modern material science with innovative new design concepts, Kawai has developed an action with a touch and consistency that is unmatched. We cordially invite you to experience the preeminent piano action of the third millennium.

Kawai's Millennium III Action
ABS-Carbon™ Action Parts
The Millennium III Action features components made of ABS-Carbon, a new composite material created by the infusion of carbon into our existing ABS Styran. ABS-Carbon is incredibly sturdy and rigid, which allowed Kawai to make the action parts lighter without sacrificing strength. The lighter design makes the Millennium III Action tremendously fast and effortless for the player. The repetition and responsiveness are superb.

Hammer and Wippen
Micro-Engineering
Every detail of the action was exhaustively analyzed to meet the stringent demands of the skilled pianist. One prime example of this effort was the addition of microscopic surface texture on the jack at the point where it meets the hammer. The result of this subtle but important change is a dramatic increase in control during pianissimo playing."


Thank you! But, I'm sure I'm not alone in saying that this doesn't really answer it for someone who's not fairly expert about piano construction, because we don't know what to make of it, in terms of what it actually means for the player, plus that the write-ups from the companies obviously include some 'spin.'

What I'm really wondering is (and of course, need I say, you personally don't need to answer further -- you've already given a lot), how do the actions compare for the player? Is one considered 'better' than the other? If it's more a matter of preference, how do the differing details suit one kind of preference over another?

I think that's what people really would want to know, and those technical write-ups from the companies don't tell us that, nor, from what I can gather, do the write-ups in Piano Book. (BTW your Kawai link to Piano Book is for digital pianos.)

Mark,

1st thanks for pointing out the link problem. I have corrected it.

As to the differences in the performance of the Boston vs. Kawai action, I will leave it to the many very fine players who are regulars here and have played both to answer.

It's a taste test at the end of the day. I wanted a Kawai K8 BUT I wanted to make sure I didn't close my eye to any small details. It wasn't a question of price for me between the two pianos. Both were well prepped. I went there kind of expecting to hear two almost identical sounding pianos and that was not the case.

I appreciate pioneering advances in engineering in instrument building. At the end of the day I enjoyed the Kawai K8 for the sum of all it's features.

In comparing Boston and Kawai grands of similar size, I found them to be quite different in sound, but both pleasing in different ways. The Kawai brighter and singing, the Boston darker and slighly moodier.

Unless someone says otherwise, I guess I'll take that to mean neither is considered simply or clearly better....unless it's that you're afraid of being accused of favoritism in whatever you'd say.

How about saying the Kawai is better from an engineeering stand point? All other things considered equal.

The Millenium III actions I've played have all been very nice. I believe the Shigeru actions get more prep prior to leaving the factory and seemed lighter and faster, but the stock action in the RX series is excellent. The Bostons I've played have also been very nice and I may give them the sonority advantage by a very slight margin. In general the Yamahas have also been very nice pianos, but for me seemed to lack expressiveness (differences in timbre per dynamic range). I haven't played the newest Boston models and cannot comment on them.

It boils down to a very simple calculation. Which piano does the OP like better? You can assume that from a performance standpoint they'll be essentially equivalent. If one plays, sounds or looks better than the competition then it would be the one to buy, assuming the other factors and the price were equivalent. If Steinway wants a few dollars (or is it a few thousand) more for the Boston then you have a decision to make on whether the difference is worth it. If the Steinway or Yamaha dealer tries to tell you the plastic in the Kawai is inferior then you know they're liars and you go buy somehwhere else. The one thing you should never do is allow internet strangers to make this important decision for you. We don't know your preferences, abilities nor what you're seeing at your local dealers.

Played a Boston at Steinway and Sons in Boston MA last year, prefer Kawai millenium action and sonority hands down. Simply blew the Boston away. IMO.

You didn't happen to get any photos or video of the factory? I enjoy the factory shots.

and I had pretty much the opposite reaction-- thought the Boston sound was preferable to the Kawai (didn't find much difference in the action responsiveness) -- So much comes down to the individual instruments. Check out the new Boston Performance Edition pianos-- they seem to have taken the Boston up a notch.