I have a brand-new (September, '11) B that I selected from the factory. The selection room has hard wood floors, walls, and is pretty lively. I wanted a piano that would NOT be overly bright, but capable of developing that blossoming F to FF+ tone when called upon. But, would ordinarily have a somewhat more mellow, but consistent, tone.

I've found a handful of notes that are brighter or just a little buzzier than most others, and the middle section is just a bit too mellow. In the selection room, the piano sounded overall brighter due to the hard surfaces and acoustics - but in my home - with carpet & drapes, etc... the tone is just a bit more subdued than I really want.

The certified Steinway Tech came over - tuned the piano, and made a handful of needle adjustments here and there, giving some over the brighter tones an improved (more consistent) sound and made a few regulation adjustments. However - there remains the overall mellowness that is just a bit too subdued in the middle section. The thing is, I WANT a piano that isn't overly bright, but I find myself working too hard to get those accents and the sfz sounds.

Plus, a couple of treble notes have an unacceptable harmonic twang to them. The pressure bar (the wire-like piece over which the strings travel just past the tuning pins) has an obvious filed surface and when I literally push down at that point with my finger, that "twang" disappears. What's that all about and how can it be fixed?

He suggested I play the piano a lot - to break in the hammers more (this makes sense to me), then he would return - take the action with him, reshape (file) the hammers, regulate the action, and then return it for more tuning and voicing. He also indicated that the touch would probably be just a bit lighter when he finished. I don't mind that so long as it is consistent and predictable... and I'm guessing this would make my FF playing easier (??) My concern is that a brand-new piano shouldn't need this much aggressive work to voice -- should it? Should I be concerned over this or does this seem to be a sensible approach? Your feedback is sincerely appreciated. I paid way too much money for this piano to have it drastically worked on like this if it's not the best approach. Thank you!

Doug

Actually, it sounds like you have a real professional tech who understands the needs of new Steinways and what he is suggesting to you is indeed a very good approach.

I agree with Keith on this .... Your view of "agressive work" being needed on a brand new Steinway Grand, is a little naive.

Your tech does indeed speak a great deal of sense - buying a brand new piano is just the start of a long relationship with that instrument. It will need time to bed in and settle down, before any drastic alteration is performed to customise it to your preferred requirements. Every client is different ( as is every piano) and it would be absolute folly for any technician or dealer to do anything other than the most basic adjustments until both the piano has bedded in with playing, and the client is certain of which he or she really wants.

Call Marc Weinert at Manhattan School of Music
Dir or Piano Technical Services.

(212) 749-2802

None better I assure you.

Hire him for a tuning and consultation.
Steinway knows him, they will not complain.

Nfexec,

Congratulations on taking the plunge into the wonderful world of high-end pianos! You are getting your first taste of what's involved - more than you thought! I tell clients that owning a fine piano is more like owning an exotic pet than an appliance. Read "Grand Obsession" and you will feel like your issues are minor!

For starters, there is no such thing a "Steinway Certified Tech". Some of us have been to training at the Steinway factory, but Steinway has no official certification. While attending Steinway factory training is a plus, it is no guarantee of competency.

I take issue with the fact that the hammer filing will lighten the touch. On a new piano, it should be just a "dressing up" of the shape, and not much felt should come off. I'm also mystified why the piano action would go into the shop for this type of routine service. Fine regulating should ALWAYS be done at the piano.

As far as "playing in" to get the brighter tone you are after, you can replicate this by firmly muting out the strings of a note with a clean finger (or use a glove or cloth) and give the key 5-10 quadruple fortissimo whacks. By immobilizing the string and hitting it hard with the hammer you will simulate many hours of playing. This is one of my normal voicing protocols in order to test the stability of my voicing.


There are a few things that can be done to deal with this type of "capo noise". Sometimes very shallow crown needling will alleviate it.

When I was at the factory for the voicing seminar, it was recommended to shave a little material off the hammer shank to make it slightly more flexible. This will slightly increase the hammer contact time on the string and can help eliminate some of the annoying upper frequency harmonics.

What I frequently do in a client's home is to take a piece of felt bushing cloth about a couple milometers wide by about a centimeter long, form it into an upside-down "V" shape and insert it over the middle string in the group of three. Just the lightest pressure of the cloth on the strings will often eliminate the buzz without having a significant effect on the rest of the tone. You can slide it toward or away from the speaking length of the string to have more or less effect.

However, if you use to thick or wide of a piece it can deaden the tone somewhat, so use the least amount of material possible to correct the condition.

Good luck with your new pet!

OK then... I appreciate the response, John... but the naive description is a little harsh methinks. I was indicating that a wholesale hammer reshape, regulation, etc. seemed drastic with a new piano. Apparently this is not the case. I will continue to play the piano and work it in before bringing him back and trying his approach. Thank you.

I do wonder, though, why I have that "twang" sound coming from a couple of treble notes. What do you all suppose is causing that?

Doug

I think those are buzzes from the duplex scale in that area, though I could be wrong. Mine did that when it was new, but has mostly settled down through playing. And the posters above are right; you simply have to play the instrument a LOT to learn how it will end up.

Duplex "zinging" can be heard on most Steinways .... it's part of their design. As has already be said, the most annoying notes can be damped down simply by inserting a tiny felt wedge, and can often be seen on concert Steinways as part of the pre concert prep required by the artist. It is, however something that is particular to any given artist, and something that can be reversed without any ill effect.

When I wrote "naive" Doug - I honestly did so with not the slightest intention of being harsh or rude .... but simply that many pianists are naive in what to expect from a brand new piano... after all why should you (or they) know what any experienced tuner or technician has learnt from years of tuning and servicing?

It's easy for others to say do this and do that and everything will turn out fine ... but messing about with changing characteristics of a piano that hasn't had a period of work hardening, can often be made more difficult to customise as a result of doing too much too soon.

Doug - Concerning the issue of brightness / mellowness, I would consider how the environment that the piano is in may be affecting the tone, and consider making adjustments to the room before making changes to the piano.

You say your music room is carpeted and has drapes. These will absorb a great deal of the sound of the piano. One easy thing to try is to experiment with an alteration to the flooring to see what effect the carpets are having on the piano. To do this, I would suggest going to a home improvement store, and buying several boxes of parquet flooring. (If you carefully open the boxes you should be able to return them for a refund once you've given this a try.)

Starting under the center of the piano, lay a small section of parquet. Try the piano out to see if there's a change in the direction that you want to go. Try some more, and check the tone again. By experimentation, you should be able to see if by eliminating some of the absorbing effect of your carpet, you reach a "sweet spot" where the piano seems to sing the way you want it to.

I had a customer with an identical problem - a new Steinway in a absolutely dead room. The switch was made from carpet to hardwood flooring (after we experimented with the parquet tiles). A few throw rugs to add color to the room and the piano (and the room) is perfect.

Just an idea. If it doesn't work, you're not out anything, and you will feel more confident in having your piano worked on. Chuck Behm

We tend to think of "fresh from the factory" as in something like a car, to mean everything in peak condition and ready to roll. But that frame of mind is not realistic in the case of a factory fresh high end, listening pianist, piano... for a couple of reasons:

1- because of the relative unpredictability of any grey metal casting, the cast iron plate coming to the factory floor is different from piano to piano, even within the same exact model. This means each piano within the model has many similarities, but each piano also has its own set of nuances or quirks that have to be teased out both at the factory, and when the piano is in service. There's no way around it. The fine concert instruments that draw people to buy so-and-so brand have huge amounts of on-going work done to them by an excellent tech...the tech is really an essential part of the piano's design.

2- the moving parts of the piano are made of felt, wood, and metal. Your car has nice predictable metal bearing for example. However, the piano's bearings are made of felt. The materials used are simply not as predictable or stable as your car's materials,and adjustments have to be made as the parts wear in, and indeed throughout the entire life of the piano.

3- Since each individual piano has its own nuances imposed by the materials and fabrication processes, and since the factory can only put so much time into optimizing the instrument, its really up to the in-service tech to "finish building the piano". This is especially true since, as you have seen, the perception of its tone in the actual space that it will live in will be different that on the showroom floor, so any attempt to marry the instrument to the player and the space really needs to be done post factory.

The salesmen could help pianists to have a realistic expectation of what is neccesary in service, but it obviously seldom happens. The bottom line to keep in mind is that a fine piano, a fine tuning and a fine regulation, are all moving targets, especially for a fine, listening pianist...the piano is constantly changing and must be serviced regularly to maintain its peak edge, new, rebuilt or old.



You note this disagreeable sound is at the Capo bar. You are noticing duplex noise. S&S sets their pianos up so each string has a main speaking length which give you the pitch, and a secondary short length of string which they want to contribute to the sound quality of that string. Its referred to as the Duplex segment. Duplexes as a design element engender significant amounts of debate as to what purpose they serve,if any, but the bottom line is that since the Capo bar (the part of the casting that the treble string go under before rising up to a secondary metal termination)is filed by hand, and since as I mentioned above, each piano's capo bar is going to come out of the casting a little different the each other B's capo bar, if the filing of the cast iron is slightly off, the strings can twang against the side of the capo bar on a hard blow.

As Ryan says there are "fixes" that can be used to...uhh... mask or pretend the capo wasn't filed adequately...

Personally, if somehow a piano with this condition left my shop without my knowing it, I would re-file adequately on-site on my nickel, rather than pretend this is "normal". Can't speak for anyone else but myself though on this point.

Jim Ialeggio

John, Chuck & Jim,

Thank you very much for your well worded responses. I absolutely do understand the points made in your posts. I suppose I was being a bit impatient with my situation - but need to relax and work on all of this. Temporarily placing the wooden tiles under the piano as an experiment makes perfect sense too. I may very well try that.

In the time I wrote this, I talked with a piano tech friend of mine who pointed out exactly the same point regarding the capo bar and suggested that at some point it might be worth it (for an experienced tech - not me) to loosen the offending strings, and gently rub some emery cloth or polishing cloth along the leading edge to possibly smooth out any tiny burrs that may have developed at the factory.

And after thinking about it, I suppose naive is appropriate to describe my reaction as while I do have some working knowledge of piano technician work, I am certainly no expert!

All of you comments give me more confidence that the best is yet to come on my piano, and I will have to be more aware of the intricacies involved in bringing it to the place I expect! Thank you again!

Doug

Right...think of as a process rather than a finished product, and you'll be golden.

Jim Ialeggio

Steinway pianos are like children. You have to nurture them, train them, correct them, and eventually they turn into adults. Like children, some leave home, only to return, and others leave home and never look back. I have a bunch of kids at the University - all with their own personalities.

A lot of high-end technicians view NY Steinways as "diamonds in the rough"...

Some of us call new instruments from the factory "piano kits". It sounds like you have a real nice piano kit that can become a marvel one day.

The reality is that any piano from any manufacturer is still learning how to be itself instead of a zillion different parts. With appropriate attention, your piano can blossom. Neglected, perhaps not.

We no longer have anything else in our homes that is of this technology. Our microwaves, computers and kitchen appliances don't get better with age. Nor do they require any kind of attention to shepherd their development into truly serviceable appliances. But with a piano, the tuning, voicing and regulating that it receives in the first 3 years can make a lot of difference in what it becomes. Don't try to apply new tech assumptions to a piano. Both it and you will suffer.

One thing to consider is the possibility of an upgrade. If premium components are installed, the piano can become more of a high-performance instrument. Mass produced hammers that pop out of the press every 20 minutes don't have the tone capability of hammers pressed for 8 hours under compression unavailable in standard hammer presses. Carbon fiber shanks are becoming increasingly accepted as a high-performance upgrade. And, the Wapin bridge modification can give any piano an additional virtual six inches to a foot in length.

Congratulations on a fine new instrument. With proper attention it can become all you'd hoped.

Doug~
From what you describe, your tech's next move is a good one. Keep playing that piano - it gets better and better - the less you mess with those mid-scale hammers the better - they will develop a focus as you play them, then voicing down is simpler.

Jurgen's correct

Enjoy growing into your B ! Look forward to knowing how it all comes together.
Glen

Someone mentioned "Grand Obsession". Keep in mind that the final outcome was a solution to tuning issues, not voicing issues. Most duplex scale problems are related to tuning.

It is so heartwarming to read this thread. Sanity reigns again. NY Steinways are at their best when patiently played in. Hardeners have their place where necessary, usually in instant gratification circumstances but the end result doesn't compare.

There used to be a predatory breed of piano tuner who wanted to laquer every Steinway in sight, particularly in areas where the local dealers policy was not to laquer. I haven't seen a new NY for some years now, having returned to UK. I believe there was a time recently, when the factory was bending under pressure and pre laquering everything (wasn't that the tail wagging the dog!). Can I assume from this thread that they've stopped doing that?

The Steinway bashers are also conspicuous by their absence from this thread.

Maybe it really is the end of the world.

Greetings,'
Steinway hammers seem to change with the decade, but as of right now, the NY model appears to be using a soft hammer and soaking them in a dilute lacquer solution. This is good, since Without sufficient lacquer in the hammer, no amount of playing will bring about the maximum power, tone, and range. This is, imho, because the very deepest part of the core in these hammers is still soft after pressing, and until the hardener turns it into a rock, the hammer will simply absorb too much of the impact energy,leaving you with a hammer that will not speak brilliantly, regardless of how hard you hit it. I soak cores first when dealing with an unresponsive sound.
It is a rare set of Steinway hammers that breaks in to optimum levels on its own. We went through this at Vanderbilt 12 years ago when we bought 8 new Steinways. I held off on lacquering for the first six months, after which three of them needed it because the tone was going nowhere. The rest were beginning to develop some sparkle when you leaned on them. Now, a decade later, these three pianos are just beginning to become difficult to voice, however, the most optimum sounding one of the whole bunch that I left alone began sounding like a tin can after the first year.

Knowing Marc Weinerts expertise in resolving "Zings", I still believe he is best qualified here.

Shaping hammers might be required. Marc can fix the zings IF they are hammer related right then and there.

If they are capo related to the capo then no amount of hammer shaping can resolve that. Some specific needling can mitigate it. I would want to answer that question BEFORE I go any further with the action work.

Marc Weinert at MSM IS the "voicer" in the "Grand Obsession" Perri wrote about.

I know, a hard push for Marc. It will, though, set aside all the assumptions and ultimately, save time and money, not to mention, .. headache.

This is a terrific post and comparison, Jim, and I think every new owner of a grand should read it (indeed, the entire thread).

I know it helped my peace of mind considerably when I stopped thinking of my piano as a finished product and instead thought about it in more anthropomorphic terms as a being that needs continual monitoring and maintenance and has good days and bad days.

Just to keep your faith up…I’m not particularly a Steinway basher—a good Steinway is a wonder—but I do find these conversations ever so interesting! If any other brand of piano came in with these issues outstanding most technicians here would be complaining about the lousy build and finish quality and detailing of those crappy Chinese/Indonesian/Korean—take your pick—pianos. But with Steinway, at least NY Steinway, these things are considered the norm; just grin and bear it. Oh, yes, and pay for it.

ddf

I agree with you, Del. I'm glad someone said it.

It's true and to be expected that most factories besides the very best - Steingraeber, Sauter, Bosendorfer to name a few - can't possibly spend the time to fully develop each instrument before it leaves the factory at the price point they are selling. So most leave green, in need of final development by a technician.

But I see with Steinway pianos made at least in the last few decades, a marked decline in build quality and refinement.

From what I read in this post (I may have missed something), it seems like this piano is not up to the standard it should be.

While it is a sensitive, delicate process to build tone and integrity in an instrument, it takes time but not an indeterminate amount of time. If a technician knows what he is doing, he should be able to zero in on each problem and greatly improve the tone after each visit, steadily building.

If that's not happening, you should ask your technician why.

I agree that a piano is an organic being that needs constant care over time to develop beautifully, but you should be able to see where a new piano is at rather quickly. If a new Steinway isn't coming together quickly under the concentrated work of a good technician, then the piano is not up to standard in my opinion.

Larry,

Functionally, let talk about hammer "zings".

Where would you say a "zing" is coming from that can be hammer related. I'm not a fan of duplexes, so I'll disclose that right here, but to me, and I'm completely open to a reasonable functional explanation of hammer zings, the functional cause of the "zing" has to be capo related and duplex segment related.

Functionally as far as the hammer, what would you suggest as possible causes for the metal/on/metal zing? Maybe mating, maybe the velocity with which letoff is kicking the hammer at the string, maybe as you say the rake angle, but these things all kick the clearance between the sides of the Capo, or poor termination at the capo into action. I would see them as mitigating, temporarily, not fixing the cause of the problem.

However, I'm open to other perspectives on this, as I say, as long as the explanation has a reasonable physical explanation.

Jim Ialeggio

Actually I think the build quality has improved quite a lot over the past several decades. It is the refinement that is lacking. That, and consistency.

My point, though, was that we as technicians have come to accept the need to finish building these pianos in the dealer’s showroom/customer’s home and yet manage to be highly critical when we have to do half as much work to detail an Asian-built piano costing considerably less than half the price.

ddf

I think the inconsistency is one reason that so many people like Steinway. Although they may each have Steinways their pianos are not alike and they wouldn't like each other's Steinway.

In contrast to say, a Yamaha or Kawai -- which are consistent enough that if you knew you liked one, you could just about order one over the phone and know what you'd be getting --
S&S product variability has been a plus for them because people can try out different pianos with the S&S name and find one to their liking. Otherwise, one must go from one piano store to the next to see which one suits.
As one piano sales person I knew rather indelicately put it "There's a butt for every saddle" .

There are other factors to S&S success, as well, and of course there is some product variation in other brands, but not nearly as pronounced in my observation.

That is so well said Mr. Fandrich!

I hope this question won't disprove your signature statement about stupidity, but what is the difference between build quality and refinement?

Build quality=design and materials. Refinement=workmanship and man hours.

Build quality would include things like structural integrity, plate and pinblock fit, stringing, etc.; the things that go into making the piano solid and long-lived.

Refinement would be things like plate finish, cabinet and casework finish and hardware detail work that affects the aesthetics of the overall package but does not affect longevity or even performance.

Refinement would also include things like consistent and precise action geometry, consistent and complete action regulation, hammer making and voicing, etc.; things that do affect performance and that put the makers stamp and individual character into the piano.

All of this is subjective, of course, your mileage may vary.

ddf