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#1845691 - 02/15/12 09:41 PM How necessary is it to twist the bass strings?
Kyle_G Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/01/12
Posts: 138
Loc: IL
Im my current restringing project Im twisting the bass strings 3 full turns in the direction of the windings. How necessary is this? I have heard the sound differece and its impressive. How many of you do this when you restring or are repairing a loose bass bridge?
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#1845692 - 02/15/12 09:49 PM Re: How necessary is it to twist the bass strings? [Re: Kyle_G]
rysowers Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 2340
Loc: Olympia, WA
Wow! With new strings I wouldn't twist them at all, and if I thought it was necessary I might twist them 1/2 turn. 3 full turns is extreme!
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Pianova Piano Service
Olympia, WA
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#1845694 - 02/15/12 09:53 PM Re: How necessary is it to twist the bass strings? [Re: rysowers]
Kyle_G Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/01/12
Posts: 138
Loc: IL
Originally Posted By: rysowers
Wow! With new strings I wouldn't twist them at all, and if I thought it was necessary I might twist them 1/2 turn. 3 full turns is extreme!

Well I have heard the difference(have you?), and the advice came from my Technician friend who has been restoring pianos for 30years.
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#1845701 - 02/15/12 10:16 PM Re: How necessary is it to twist the bass strings? [Re: Kyle_G]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
I screwed this all up so, I edited and changed it.

3 turns is extreme. I "DO" twist them at least 1/2 turn and if I use the tool from Schaff for string twisting, it will twist them one full turn. But, I do not go more than one full twist.


Edited by Jerry Groot RPT (02/16/12 02:55 PM)
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#1845705 - 02/15/12 10:29 PM Re: How necessary is it to twist the bass strings? [Re: Kyle_G]
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 20741
Loc: Oakland
Turn them too much and the hitchpin loop may start to unwind. Maybe 1/2 turn on the singles, and a full turn on the rest.
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#1845709 - 02/15/12 10:32 PM Re: How necessary is it to twist the bass strings? [Re: BDB]
Kyle_G Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/01/12
Posts: 138
Loc: IL
The man that suggested this to me had experimented with the number of twists and found that 3 twist was Ideal, Just enough to maximise tone quality with out damaging the string
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#1845713 - 02/15/12 10:38 PM Re: How necessary is it to twist the bass strings? [Re: Kyle_G]
Chuck Behm Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/12/10
Posts: 615
Loc: Boone, Iowa, USA
I'm with BDB. I've always done the lighter bass strings a full turn and the big single ones a half turn. Ryan, what's the reason for not turning new strings at all? Just curious, in that I'm just doing it the way my dad told me to do it back in the '70's, and have done it ever since. If there's a reason I shouldn't be twisting them, I would be glad to change procedures. I've always assumed that twisting the strings added to their vibrancy. Chuck
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#1845740 - 02/15/12 11:29 PM Re: How necessary is it to twist the bass strings? [Re: Kyle_G]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1680
Loc: London, England
I read that post in a recent thread where somebody here talked of '3 turns'. They didn't say '3 whole turns'. A bit ambiguous.

That is the danger of forums like this. I thought enough of us had given the best advice on that thread but you only heeded the worst advice.

I have very occasionally, in the USA, come across strings that sounded really bad having too many turns when examined.

3 WHOLE TURNS Is FAR TOO MANY.

I just frightened myself.... I don't normally shout.

More than enough is not necessarily better. They may just sound OK now but not later. If you've ever heard the sound of a string that has been overtwisted you will know why I shouted.

It may not be too late to re-install them properly but you may have ruined your new bass strings. Don't be surprised if some of them rattle.

Bass strings rarely lie flat at the hitchpin when installing them so a half turn or part of a half turn In the direction of the winding is all that is necessary. Just so you don't turn them the wrong way to get them to lie flat.



Edited by rxd (02/16/12 12:46 AM)
Edit Reason: Clarity
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#1845770 - 02/16/12 12:34 AM Re: How necessary is it to twist the bass strings? [Re: rxd]
Supply Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 3919
Loc: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
Originally Posted By: rxd
I read that post where somebody here talked of '3 turns'. They didn't say '3 whole turns'. A bit ambiguous. ...
I can't see anything ambiguous. The original post read:
Originally Posted By: Amature_Rebuilder
Im my current restringing project Im twisting the bass strings 3 full turns [emphasis mine] in the direction of the windings.
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#1845774 - 02/16/12 12:39 AM Re: How necessary is it to twist the bass strings? [Re: Kyle_G]
Dave B Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/01/11
Posts: 1730
Loc: Philadelphia area
I turn the coil with the pin parallel to the plate, so a 3/4 twist positions the pin to the block.

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#1845776 - 02/16/12 12:41 AM Re: How necessary is it to twist the bass strings? [Re: Kyle_G]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1680
Loc: London, England
Jurgen. Read me again. I was refering to a recent post in another thread that saId 3 turns. Not this post.

I have edited it for clarity. Thank you.


Edited by rxd (02/16/12 12:48 AM)
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"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#1845780 - 02/16/12 01:05 AM Re: How necessary is it to twist the bass strings? [Re: Kyle_G]
Supply Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 3919
Loc: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
Oh, I thought we were talking about this thread in this thread.... wink
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Piano Forte Supply
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#1845782 - 02/16/12 01:17 AM Re: How necessary is it to twist the bass strings? [Re: Kyle_G]
beethoven986 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/20/09
Posts: 3292
Three is excessive. I do one.
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#1845883 - 02/16/12 08:51 AM Re: How necessary is it to twist the bass strings? [Re: Kyle_G]
Tim Sullivan Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 68
Loc: Muskoka, Ontario
When in doubt, ask the string maker. He/she will have the experience to tell you. I've never heard a string winder suggest any more than one full turn.
Tim
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#1845885 - 02/16/12 08:54 AM Re: How necessary is it to twist the bass strings? [Re: Kyle_G]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4182
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada
I did exactly that Tim;

From Gregor Heller at HellerBass:

Dear Dan,

We recommend to twist the strings 1 1/2 turns ( 1 + 1/2 ) clockwise.
The double wounded strings only 1/2 turn clockwise.

Cheers!
Gregor

For the strings he makes anyways.
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#1846008 - 02/16/12 11:42 AM Re: How necessary is it to twist the bass strings? [Re: Chuck Behm]
rysowers Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 2340
Loc: Olympia, WA
Originally Posted By: Chuck Behm
I'm with BDB. I've always done the lighter bass strings a full turn and the big single ones a half turn. Ryan, what's the reason for not turning new strings at all? Just curious, in that I'm just doing it the way my dad told me to do it back in the '70's, and have done it ever since. If there's a reason I shouldn't be twisting them, I would be glad to change procedures. I've always assumed that twisting the strings added to their vibrancy. Chuck

James Arledge doesn't recommend twisting his strings at all: From his WEBSITE :
Quote:
"Important! Arledge bass strings DO NOT need to be twisted when installed. Doing so could cause undesirable effects."


Here's a quote from Don Mannino:
Quote:
Kawai does not twist them when installing them. If the tone is bad in a particular string, though, it will get 1/2 turn during the tuning stages. If it doesn't fix it, a new string goes on.


But as Dan Silverwood just showed, the makers vary in their recommendation. It would be best to stick with that.

I have tended to think that leaving them untwisted gives you somewhere to go in the future if some of the strings start to get dull. It seems that a dull string that is already twisted doesn't seem to respond as well as one with no twist. Just speculating...


Edited by rysowers (02/16/12 11:46 AM)
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#1846067 - 02/16/12 01:06 PM Re: How necessary is it to twist the bass strings? [Re: Kyle_G]
Steve Jackson Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/02/07
Posts: 634
Loc: Toronto

Arledge strings don't require twisting, due to the way
they are made. Some strings are 1/2 turn, some makers will say
more. none say 3 whole turns. When in doubt, ask the string maker.
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#1846241 - 02/16/12 04:53 PM Re: How necessary is it to twist the bass strings? [Re: Kyle_G]
Kyle_G Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/01/12
Posts: 138
Loc: IL
well I only twisted the four strings I have on and it hasnt even been 24 hours since I put them on so I gusse I will go and unhitch them and do one twist. Also does anyone know of a source for steel wound bass strings or a stringmaker that will make steel wound strings?
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#1846295 - 02/16/12 06:00 PM Re: How necessary is it to twist the bass strings? [Re: Kyle_G]
Eric Gloo Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/28/01
Posts: 1176
Loc: Richfield Springs, New York
I love Arledge strings. The no-twisting is a time-saver when restringing.
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Piano Technician
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Richfield Springs, New York

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#1846316 - 02/16/12 06:27 PM Re: How necessary is it to twist the bass strings? [Re: Kyle_G]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4182
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada
Originally Posted By: Amature_Rebuilder
well I only twisted the four strings I have on and it hasnt even been 24 hours since I put them on so I gusse I will go and unhitch them and do one twist. Also does anyone know of a source for steel wound bass strings or a stringmaker that will make steel wound strings?


Ask any of the string makers; most will wrap iron bass for you.
Upon request for certain instruments some will use a different core for a particular sound such as the Paulello choices available.
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#1846320 - 02/16/12 06:31 PM Re: How necessary is it to twist the bass strings? [Re: Kyle_G]
David Jenson Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/22/06
Posts: 1947
Loc: Maine
Originally Posted By: Amature_Rebuilder
well I only twisted the four strings I have on and it hasnt even been 24 hours since I put them on so I gusse I will go and unhitch them and do one twist. Also does anyone know of a source for steel wound bass strings or a stringmaker that will make steel wound strings?
Why? Steel wound strings were used in some pianos I've seen that were made during WWll, and the sound from them is pretty awful!
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Tuning - Repairs - Refurbishing
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#1846420 - 02/16/12 10:11 PM Re: How necessary is it to twist the bass strings? [Re: David Jenson]
Kyle_G Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/01/12
Posts: 138
Loc: IL
Originally Posted By: David Jenson
Originally Posted By: Amature_Rebuilder
well I only twisted the four strings I have on and it hasnt even been 24 hours since I put them on so I gusse I will go and unhitch them and do one twist. Also does anyone know of a source for steel wound bass strings or a stringmaker that will make steel wound strings?
Why? Steel wound strings were used in some pianos I've seen that were made during WWll, and the sound from them is pretty awful!
I will record a vid of my 1908 Ebersole player piano that has steel wound strings(all original) and the bass sounds amazing

Also steel wound strings last longer than copper if kept in the right conditions


Edited by Amature_Rebuilder (02/16/12 10:12 PM)
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#1846426 - 02/16/12 10:16 PM Re: How necessary is it to twist the bass strings? [Re: Kyle_G]
Rod Verhnjak Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/09/06
Posts: 3635
Loc: Vancouver B.C. Canada
Originally Posted By: Amature_Rebuilder


Also steel wound strings last longer than copper if kept in the right conditions


Never seen that.
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#1846428 - 02/16/12 10:18 PM Re: How necessary is it to twist the bass strings? [Re: Rod Verhnjak]
Kyle_G Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/01/12
Posts: 138
Loc: IL
The steel wound keep their vibrancy longer than copper
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#1846432 - 02/16/12 10:25 PM Re: How necessary is it to twist the bass strings? [Re: Kyle_G]
rysowers Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 2340
Loc: Olympia, WA
Are they really wrapped with steel? I had always thought it was iron. Anyhow, in my experience I have found more dead sets of non-copper wound strings than copper wound.
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Pianova Piano Service
Olympia, WA
www.pianova.net

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#1846435 - 02/16/12 10:28 PM Re: How necessary is it to twist the bass strings? [Re: Kyle_G]
accordeur Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 1109
Loc: Québec, Canada
Amature, maybe you want to change your handle to amateur? If your name is a play on words good for you. If not, I am being grumpy.
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#1846437 - 02/16/12 10:30 PM Re: How necessary is it to twist the bass strings? [Re: rysowers]
Kyle_G Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/01/12
Posts: 138
Loc: IL
Well were talking in the case of a well cared for piano.
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#1846438 - 02/16/12 10:31 PM Re: How necessary is it to twist the bass strings? [Re: accordeur]
Kyle_G Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/01/12
Posts: 138
Loc: IL
Im confused?
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#1846445 - 02/16/12 10:38 PM Re: How necessary is it to twist the bass strings? [Re: accordeur]
Supply Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 3919
Loc: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
Originally Posted By: accordeur
Amature, maybe you want to change your handle to amateur? If your name is a play on words good for you. If not, I am being grumpy.
And maybe drop the "Rebuilder" part? After all, your name gives the false impression: that you a person over twenty with some actual experience in rebuilding under your belt. Hats off to you as a high school youngster with a passion for pianos, but it will be at least a few years at of concerted work/study before you have deserved your handle. It is a bit of an affront to those who have paid their dues.
_________________________
Jurgen Goering
Piano Forte Supply
www.pianofortesupply.com

Piattino Caster Cups distributor

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#1846447 - 02/16/12 10:46 PM Re: How necessary is it to twist the bass strings? [Re: Supply]
Kyle_G Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/01/12
Posts: 138
Loc: IL
Originally Posted By: Supply
Originally Posted By: accordeur
Amature, maybe you want to change your handle to amateur? If your name is a play on words good for you. If not, I am being grumpy.
And maybe drop the "Rebuilder" part? After all, your name gives the false impression: that you a person over twenty with some actual experience in rebuilding under your belt. Hats off to you as a high school youngster with a passion for pianos, but it will be at least a few years at of concerted work/study before you have deserved your handle. It is a bit of an affront to those who have paid their dues.


Well I do have a technician who is willing to take me under his wing, msybe I should take him up on that before he changes his mind.
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