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#1845881 - 02/16/12 08:50 AM yamaha: advice to buy 2nd hand
toddy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/30/11
Posts: 1320
Loc: Portugal
OK - very slight variation from the standard question:

I have a young piano student who is doing quite well as a beginner but desperately needs a piano at home to practice on (at the moment she's borrowing a casio keyboard (not piano action, nor velocity sensitive) of mine.

Parents keen but not willing to make big investment at this stage, which is understandable. In the local listings, there's a Yamaha CLP220 (seller dates purchase 2008) for €500 ($650 or £400). It is conveniently near, and such offers are relatively rare in this country. He is unwilling to bargain. Even so, if it's in near new condition/ perfect working order, it seems a quite good deal to me. What do you think? (Main difference I see compared with current range is only 64 voice polyphony, but I don't think that matters in this case).
_________________________
Roland HP 302, Yamaha SY85

Reaper / NI Komplete 9 /Kontakt 5// EWQL Sym Choirs/ Sym Orchestra Silver/ MOR2
Mics: SP B1 & MXL V67g/ Alesis MicTube Preamp/ Xenyx302/ Yamaha HS7s .

"Only a fool is fooled" pv88, All Fools' Day 2014.

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#1845924 - 02/16/12 09:48 AM Re: yamaha: advice to buy 2nd hand [Re: toddy]
Dr Popper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/30/09
Posts: 1706
Loc: Hancock Park LA (not again)
Depending on local market it may or may not be a good deal. If it feels like one it probably is.
_________________________
"I'm still an idiot and I'm still in love" - Blue Sofa - The Plugz 1981 (Tito Larriva)
Disclosure : I am professionally supported by but not beholden to various musical instrument manufactures including Yamaha

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#1846011 - 02/16/12 11:45 AM Re: yamaha: advice to buy 2nd hand [Re: toddy]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3667
Loc: North Carolina
For that price you really can't do better.

It's too bad it's a CLP220 rather than a CLP240.
The 240 has 3-level dynamic sampling.
But it's not likely you'll find one under $1000.

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#1846023 - 02/16/12 12:08 PM Re: yamaha: advice to buy 2nd hand [Re: toddy]
toddy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/30/11
Posts: 1320
Loc: Portugal
Thanks Dr Popper and MacMacMac. When see it and try it and report back, I hope.
_________________________
Roland HP 302, Yamaha SY85

Reaper / NI Komplete 9 /Kontakt 5// EWQL Sym Choirs/ Sym Orchestra Silver/ MOR2
Mics: SP B1 & MXL V67g/ Alesis MicTube Preamp/ Xenyx302/ Yamaha HS7s .

"Only a fool is fooled" pv88, All Fools' Day 2014.

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#1846041 - 02/16/12 12:31 PM Re: yamaha: advice to buy 2nd hand [Re: toddy]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3474
Loc: Pennsylvania
Yeah, that seems feasible to me. I think this piano would dominate the new pianos being sold for that price. Cheaper is always better, of course, but this price seems like a reasonably large discount from the purchase price, considering the quality of the piano.

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#1846051 - 02/16/12 12:43 PM Re: yamaha: advice to buy 2nd hand [Re: toddy]
EssBrace Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2324
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
Mmm. Not sure. Released October 2005. Single layer piano sample. I'd see what the Casio PX130 retails at before going for this Yamaha.
_________________________
Yamaha CP1

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#1846056 - 02/16/12 12:49 PM Re: yamaha: advice to buy 2nd hand [Re: toddy]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3474
Loc: Pennsylvania
EssBrace, how can you tell it has only a single layer?

Let's assume that's the case, though. That would mean the sounds are on par with the P95, but it has a GH action. In my opinion I've already written down enough to conclude that it is a far better piano than the Casio.

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#1846070 - 02/16/12 01:08 PM Re: yamaha: advice to buy 2nd hand [Re: toddy]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3667
Loc: North Carolina
It's easy to hear 1-level sampling. And the CLP220 has just that, according to the specs.

Yes, the CLP220 is better than the Casio, but not better than the P155. Both have the GH keyboard, but the P155 has 4-level sampling.

But at least the CLP220 has a proper cabinet. And you can't do better for $650.

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#1846075 - 02/16/12 01:13 PM Re: yamaha: advice to buy 2nd hand [Re: toddy]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3474
Loc: Pennsylvania
MacMacMac, don't tease me. I believe you can hear it, but you didn't answer the question of where you guys are looking up specs that indicate how many sampled layers it has. I don't see it on the Yamaha page...

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#1846079 - 02/16/12 01:18 PM Re: yamaha: advice to buy 2nd hand [Re: toddy]
toddy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/30/11
Posts: 1320
Loc: Portugal
....difficult to find information about sample layers. The spec says AWM stereo sampling. And I think the CLP 320/ YDP 161 have 3 level sampling. But about this (200) series, I don't know.

Casio CDP120 and Yamaha P95 both cost between 500 and 600 euro here, that's without a stand.
_________________________
Roland HP 302, Yamaha SY85

Reaper / NI Komplete 9 /Kontakt 5// EWQL Sym Choirs/ Sym Orchestra Silver/ MOR2
Mics: SP B1 & MXL V67g/ Alesis MicTube Preamp/ Xenyx302/ Yamaha HS7s .

"Only a fool is fooled" pv88, All Fools' Day 2014.

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#1846084 - 02/16/12 01:21 PM Re: yamaha: advice to buy 2nd hand [Re: toddy]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3667
Loc: North Carolina
Their web page has specs for newer models, but I don't know if that's the case with the older CLP220.

So if the specs aren't there, get them from the user manuals. Those are available even for VERY old models.

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#1846087 - 02/16/12 01:23 PM Re: yamaha: advice to buy 2nd hand [Re: MacMacMac]
Kbeaumont Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/26/10
Posts: 242
Loc: Virginia, USA
The CASIO has 4 level sampling and 3 sensors. The clavinova has 1 level sampling and 2 sensors. Note repeat and layer transitions are much better on the CASIO. The Yamaha has better speakers.
_________________________
A long long time ago, I can still remember
How that music used to make me smile....

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#1846089 - 02/16/12 01:24 PM Re: yamaha: advice to buy 2nd hand [Re: Kbeaumont]
toddy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/30/11
Posts: 1320
Loc: Portugal
....difficult to find information about sample layers. The spec (from yamaha usa) just says 'AWM stereo sampling'. And I think the CLP 320/ YDP 161 have 3 level sampling. But about this (200) series, I don't know.

Casio CDP120 and Yamaha P95 both cost between 500 and 600 euro here, that's without a stand.
_________________________
Roland HP 302, Yamaha SY85

Reaper / NI Komplete 9 /Kontakt 5// EWQL Sym Choirs/ Sym Orchestra Silver/ MOR2
Mics: SP B1 & MXL V67g/ Alesis MicTube Preamp/ Xenyx302/ Yamaha HS7s .

"Only a fool is fooled" pv88, All Fools' Day 2014.

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#1846092 - 02/16/12 01:29 PM Re: yamaha: advice to buy 2nd hand [Re: toddy]
Kbeaumont Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/26/10
Posts: 242
Loc: Virginia, USA
Link

The last page under CLP220.
_________________________
A long long time ago, I can still remember
How that music used to make me smile....

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#1846093 - 02/16/12 01:30 PM Re: yamaha: advice to buy 2nd hand [Re: toddy]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3474
Loc: Pennsylvania
Edit: removed out of date question. Thanks for the source.


Edited by gvfarns (02/16/12 01:31 PM)

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#1846105 - 02/16/12 01:46 PM Re: yamaha: advice to buy 2nd hand [Re: toddy]
toddy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/30/11
Posts: 1320
Loc: Portugal
Kbeaumont, that pdf is great, thanks!

So, the sound engine is fairly rudimentary by today's standards. What is more important in this case is probably a good keyboard (that's OK: it has GH) good sound (20 + 20 watts, Yamaha system, should be at least OK), piano like features (accessible, solid, fixed pedals - all ok) and reliability.

The last point is the risk factor really. But, as gvfarns says, in terms of quality for that price - despite one sample layer and 64 voice polyphony - it's a reasonable to good deal, I think.
_________________________
Roland HP 302, Yamaha SY85

Reaper / NI Komplete 9 /Kontakt 5// EWQL Sym Choirs/ Sym Orchestra Silver/ MOR2
Mics: SP B1 & MXL V67g/ Alesis MicTube Preamp/ Xenyx302/ Yamaha HS7s .

"Only a fool is fooled" pv88, All Fools' Day 2014.

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#1846126 - 02/16/12 02:11 PM Re: yamaha: advice to buy 2nd hand [Re: toddy]
toddy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/30/11
Posts: 1320
Loc: Portugal
.....by the way, the spec sheet mentions sampling banks (30 for the lower models and 50 for the better ones). What on earth are 'sampling banks'? Does this in fact refer to the number of samples taken across the keyboard range - meaning that samples are stretched to fill a cluster of adjacent notes, or it's something completely different?
_________________________
Roland HP 302, Yamaha SY85

Reaper / NI Komplete 9 /Kontakt 5// EWQL Sym Choirs/ Sym Orchestra Silver/ MOR2
Mics: SP B1 & MXL V67g/ Alesis MicTube Preamp/ Xenyx302/ Yamaha HS7s .

"Only a fool is fooled" pv88, All Fools' Day 2014.

Top
#1846142 - 02/16/12 02:38 PM Re: yamaha: advice to buy 2nd hand [Re: toddy]
EssBrace Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2324
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
Your assumption is correct...higher models have more individual notes sampled...but note that other than in one or two current and past models all Yamahas are "stretched" in this way.
_________________________
Yamaha CP1

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#1847891 - 02/19/12 03:22 PM Re: yamaha: advice to buy 2nd hand [Re: toddy]
toddy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/30/11
Posts: 1320
Loc: Portugal
We went to see the (Yamaha Clavinova 220) piano yesterday. It was in perfect condition and so I advised my pupil's mother to get the piano - which she did.

I'm keeping it in my house for a few days because she wouldn't have had room to take it home in her car with the children. So I'm comparing it more carefully against my own digital - Roland HP302.

The sound is certainly less lively and realistic on the Yamaha, and I don't hear much variation from pp - ff apart from volume. But, despite its complexity and authentic sound, there is a funny characteristic about the Roland SN piano. A certain lack of body or colour. So even the less advanced Yamaha AWM has, in a certain way, a more substantial tone. Overall, though, the Roland is in a different class altogether - and the Roland has 3 or 4 hundred other sounds whereas the Yamaha has about 10.

The amp is 20+20 on the Yamaha and 12+12 on the Roland. However, the Roland is actually louder - more efficient amp and speakers. Sound quality better on the Roland. (both are rather restricted in frequency range, though)

As for the keyboard: Yamaha's GH feels very good: firm and well defined. But the Roland PHAII is just as solid but freer in movement: lighter. I much prefer the Roland (as I did in the shop, over both Kawai and Yamaha and other cheaper actions such as PHA alpha II)

Having said that, though, the action of either would suit me well enough if I did not have the choice.

Anyway, my student has got a pretty good deal: new condition Yamaha Clavinova for €500. So all's well.
_________________________
Roland HP 302, Yamaha SY85

Reaper / NI Komplete 9 /Kontakt 5// EWQL Sym Choirs/ Sym Orchestra Silver/ MOR2
Mics: SP B1 & MXL V67g/ Alesis MicTube Preamp/ Xenyx302/ Yamaha HS7s .

"Only a fool is fooled" pv88, All Fools' Day 2014.

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