|
Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments. Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers
(it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!
|
|
74 members (bluebilly, accordeur, BillS728, aphexdisklavier, bobrunyan, anotherscott, AaronSF, apianostudent, 17 invisible),
2,088
guests, and
350
robots. |
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 2,400
2000 Post Club Member
|
OP
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 2,400 |
Ok, so we're zeroing in on a piano.
It looks like the space would do nicely with a 7 foot piano, so we're looking at pianos in the mid-6 foot to mid 7's.
Bosendorfer and Steinway are now out. Regardless of whether or not he's right that "Hamburg" Steinways are palpably better than the New York ones, the fact is that they are still significantly more expensive than something in the Shigeru Kawai line, and he is digging those pianos irrespective of its price savings.
So now we're down to Kawai, Kawai's "Shigeru" line, or a Yamaha.
He found a website that put various models into quality categories, and when you sort them that way, Kawai comes out ahead. Of course, the huge assumption here is that the quality categories are accurate which I really don't know.
So now that I've muddied the waters, here are my questions:
1) Is Kawai "better" than Yamaha in terms of bang for your buck? That is, you get further up in Kawai's line with the same money than Yamaha. For example, both the Kawai RX7-BLK and the Yamaha C7 are in the same quality grouping. But the Kawai is $40k, and the Yamaha is $48k. Are they similar in quality so that it just comes down to sound preference at that point?
2) What about Shigeru Kawai? Looking only at the same length piano, Shigeru Kawai has an SK-7, which invoices at $52K, but the quality category jumps up. Is it $12k better in quality when compared to its brother in the Kawai line, the RX7?
Yamaha appears to offer the CF-6 at $56k, but the quality category is no higher than the pianos in question 1.
3) Prices are obviously guesstimates. Is there something I should know about the street prices of these pianos so that their invoice prices are not comparable? In other words, does Yamaha come down lower than Kawai when all is said and done in a way so that what looks like a big price difference here is not as much when you've purchased the piano?
Last edited by TwoSnowflakes; 02/22/12 12:50 PM.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 2,400
2000 Post Club Member
|
OP
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 2,400 |
Also, Kawai has several dealers in the area, but to go get a Shigeru Kawai would require driving about an hour and a half. Not ever having bought a new piano, what is the role of the dealer in the first years of a piano's life? Are we just talking about getting it tuned and it's mostly hands off, or is there some great advantage to having your dealer very local because there tend to be warranty issues or other servicing/breaking in that isn't done by your standard independent piano tuner?
If there are things that involve the dealer, will a local Kawai dealer be able to handle issues with a Shigeru Kawai purchased further away? Or are we basically committing ourselves to schlepping an hour and a half to the purchasing dealer for any issue, including early tunings, etc.?
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 125
Full Member
|
Full Member
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 125 |
Buying a piano from a dealer an hour and a half away is very common, I don't think it'll be a problem. However, TwoSnowflakes, may I ask you why you boiled it down to Kawai and Yamaha before considering other comparable brands ? If I was on the market for a 7ft. grand, I would surely be auditioning Mason&Hamlin's.
"Play Bach constantly. That will be your best means of progress." -F.Chopin
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 528
500 Post Club Member
|
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 528 |
Suggestion: It's unclear that you've actually played these instruments. (I'm guessing that because you say nothing about your reaction to how they sound.) They're all of solid quality, so how YOU feel about the sound (and perhaps the touch) is likely to be THE most important factor in making your choice. This issue arguably should even override the answers to the important questions you ask.
If I'm right and you haven't yet played them all, start by playing them all. If you don't play much, have someone else do so in your presence.
There's an excellent chance that if one doesn't cry out to you "TAKE ME" at least one is likely to not please you, in which case at the very least you could scratch that off your list, making it easier to come to a decision.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 2,400
2000 Post Club Member
|
OP
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 2,400 |
I have NOT played either of these pianos. This piano is not even FOR me, and the person who is buying it is not a piano player, himself.
It is for his kids to take lessons on.
Which makes playing them almost a bit inconsequential. I have no doubt I would have preferences, but since I won't be its principal owner, and the people who WILL be playing it don't currently have preferences worth taking into account, it's coming down to quality and price and mostly trying to take personal preference out of it.
As for ME, well, I also need a piano, but I have greater budget restrictions, greater preferences from knowing how to play, and greater size constraints. So we'll move on to me in a little while, haha.
For right now, we're picking a piano for people whose sound/action preferences currently do not matter.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 2,400
2000 Post Club Member
|
OP
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 2,400 |
Buying a piano from a dealer an hour and a half away is very common, I don't think it'll be a problem. However, TwoSnowflakes, may I ask you why you boiled it down to Kawai and Yamaha before considering other comparable brands ? If I was on the market for a 7ft. grand, I would surely be auditioning Mason&Hamlin's. He started with Fazioli and Shigeru Kawai, threw Steinway into the mix (and nixed it due to the perception that only Hamburg Steinways were worth spending the money on) and decided he just didn't like Bosendorfer. I have been pushing Yamaha simply because you can't just ignore a major brand and also because locally there are a lot of options. But for whatever reason, Yamaha is not lighting a fire for him. He keeps coming back to Shigeru Kawai. He likes the engineering of it and the innovations. And ultimately you have to love your piano and if you're not a piano player, the things you love will be different, but no less legitimate. At least that's my thought about it.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 2,400
2000 Post Club Member
|
OP
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 2,400 |
As for me, my own personal nostalgic sound is probably a Yamaha. I grew up with a so-so upright and played a Steinway at my teacher's studio. I like a light action and a bright sound but often hear pianos that have sort of a ultra-bright sound that grates, so I know there's a limit to how bright I want to hear when I play. I know my dear friend just got a Yamaha and it is a pleasure to play. But after a while I have to go home! I know she was offered a choice between more mellow or more bright and she chose more mellow. I definitely like it.
I know the brightness/mellowness can be adjusted in general, and I guess I'd want to know more about the action which I suppose is harder to adjust later?
Eh, forget it. My questions and purchase process is ultimately going to be way different than his.
Though if I found something to like about Kawai, we could probably both benefit from buying two pianos at the same time, right? Mine will be so much smaller and less expensive, though!
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 7,559
7000 Post Club Member
|
7000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 7,559 |
My experiences playing Shigeru Kawai models is they are a cut above the regular Yamaha C series and Kawai RX series. Whether an instrument of this level and price is the right tool for the job is up to you. Also the case is rather distinct (the legs and such) on the Shigeru - something that could be a little polarizing stylistically.
Dealer discounting depends a lot on your local market. I don't perceive one brand to be more heavily discounted than the other in general. Though even more expensive, there is the new CF line of Yamaha pianos to consider if you're limiting yourself to these two brands. It's a new piano that very few of us have actually played (but those who have comment very positively).
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 3,652
3000 Post Club Member
|
3000 Post Club Member
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 3,652 |
The Shigeru Kawai is definitely a wonderful piano with a very refined sound. I've played the SK2,SK3 and SK7. The SK7 was truly a fantastic instrument with a marvelous balanced sound and incredibly playable and controlable action. It was one of the finest pianos I've ever played. It wasn't as boisterous a piano as the Estonias a few feet away, but it made me a better player. The Kawai RX series and Yamaha C series are essentially equivalent in quality but sound very different.
I do think it a bit odd to throw out NY Steinway. Yes it can take some looking to find a good one, but the fact remains they can be exquisite pianos and they're not hard to sell. The good ones do seem to get snatched up quickly and they are more expensive than many, but they're apparently not out of your price range if you've already considered Hamburg Steinway and Bosendorfer.
If you're considering pianos with superior engineering features then you must consider Mason & Hamlin. They also have composite actions and include a crown retention system. They're also great instruments many consider on a par with Steinway (somewhere between NY and Hamburg). They sound and play great. I played one M&H BB that was a joy to behold.
The bottom line is you really should shop, play and listen more before making your decision.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 2,400
2000 Post Club Member
|
OP
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 2,400 |
Thanks. That's very helpful to know.
I think the fact is that basically any piano above the very bottom of the line in any of these brands will be more than sufficient for the job. I studied for many years as a child and young adult and I know that any of these would have been a dream to have in my home. Anything other than the Schoninger upright I tolerated for 15 years and still have in my house and curse every time I sit down and try to enjoy myself or accompany my daughter on the violin. At least back then it held a tune. Anyhooooooo. I digress.
I think that just knowing my friend preferences at this point, his "splurge" brand is going to be Shigeru Kawai so the CF series won't be on his short list.
Something about it is really jazzing him, so ultimately I'm pretty sure the question is between the Kawai RX or the Shigeru SK. He doesn't like the idea of a Yamaha enough to overcome the fact that it's more expensive.
If you were him, and had to buy a piano with no way to really have an appreciation for the difference other than the general desire to own a quality instrument, would you buy the RX or the SK? He has the money to spend, but obviously wouldn't toss $8000 down the toilet for no reason, either.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 391
Full Member
|
Full Member
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 391 |
To each their own. I played a Shigeru. Eeh. Not bad. I played a Bosendorfer and felt like I was being touched by the hand of God. Estonia's are nice too.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 807
500 Post Club Member
|
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 807 |
Let me get this straight. This guy is willing to drop $50,000+ on a piano for his kids to start learning on? Wow, must be nice.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,906
1000 Post Club Member
|
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,906 |
Here is a guy playing a Shigeru Kawai SK-7 Even on Youtube - to me it sounds wonderful. Think this might be enough piano for 3 kids to learn on? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tta25bsm1yA&feature=related
Amateur Pianist and raconteur.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 2,400
2000 Post Club Member
|
OP
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 2,400 |
...If I was on the market for a 7ft. grand, I would surely be auditioning Mason&Hamlin's. I'll have you know that this bothered my friend enough that he wanted to sort of explain why it didn't survive some of the initial rounds. Mason and Hamlin was put aside along with a few other ideas such as Estonia, August Forster and its ilk. And not because they were bad instruments but simply because the process didn't lend itself to keeping those in the running. Simply put, I think what he means to say is that it all comes back to the fact that experts and non-experts make decisions very differently. Which makes sense. When one possesses the requisite knowledge discriminate among things without having to rely on outside counsel, one can simply pick among the things one already knows about. I think we all agree that it would be ideal to be an accomplished pianist with plenty of time and the budget of a king. No doubt the best piano gets chosen. But when one comes into a decision where the requisite knowledge is not there, you have to quickly identify the sphere of choices and then quickly seek out a few broad--and often blunt--outside principles to narrow the field. And Mason and Hamlin was discarded early because it didn't leap to the front when the first culling of models was done. And for reasons that might not at all correspond to its objective worthiness (i.e. there weren't a lot of blog posts that waxed rhapsodic about Mason and Hamlin). But if one choice among what's left still gets you within spitting distance of ideal, then arguably you've still made the right decision. How's that for an overly academic, overwrought answer to a question you probably already forgot you asked?? Which of course begs the additional question: if we have the time to sit here and navel gaze, wouldn't that time be better spent learning to play the piano and have made the decision from a position of knowledge?
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 2,400
2000 Post Club Member
|
OP
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 2,400 |
Let me get this straight. This guy is willing to drop $50,000+ on a piano for his kids to start learning on? Wow, must be nice. Well, to be fair, we're all in the same luxurious boat. After all, there are far, far more people in the world than not for whom any piano would serve better purpose as firewood.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 120
Full Member
|
Full Member
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 120 |
Since you were considering Fazioli and Bosendorfer, have you tried any other European makers like Schimmel, Bluthner, or a August Forster?
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 2,400
2000 Post Club Member
|
OP
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 2,400 |
No doubt. Gorgeous instrument. My daughter had the temerity to complain about the temperment of her current violin teacher. I pointed out that she was so extremely lucky to have even had the opportunity to learn with him. That she should have enough skill for him to agree to take her, and that she lucked out to have parents who can afford to let nothing but her own internal capacity be the only determinant of how far she ultimately goes in her violin...ing. What a charmed life she is privileged to lead! Though, tough @#$% on the piano, should you decide to get into that. 'Cause you aren't getting a Shigeru Kawai SK-7 anytime soon.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,186
3000 Post Club Member
|
3000 Post Club Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,186 |
...If I was on the market for a 7ft. grand, I would surely be auditioning Mason&Hamlin's. ...you have to quickly identify the sphere of choices and then quickly seek out a few broad--and often blunt--outside principles to narrow the field. And Mason and Hamlin was discarded early because it didn't leap to the front when the first culling of models was done. And for reasons that might not at all correspond to its objective worthiness (i.e. there weren't a lot of blog posts that waxed rhapsodic about Mason and Hamlin). But if one choice among what's left still gets you within spitting distance of ideal, then arguably you've still made the right decision. How's that for an overly academic, overwrought answer to a question you probably already forgot you asked?? Which of course begs the additional question: if we have the time to sit here and navel gaze, wouldn't that time be better spent learning to play the piano and have made the decision from a position of knowledge? I'm not sure why I'm still reading this, less so why I'm replying. Isn't it odd for a bunch of strangers to be consulted, not about YOUR piano choice, but about your friend's choice? And then to have us give feedback that you pass on to your friend, who then sends messages back through you about our feedback? But to answer your question, I think that's an EXCELLENT overly academic, overwrought answer... to the wrong question. The right question is what is the best piano for your friend's purposes, for the money your friend is prepared to spend? That doesn't seem to be the question he's asking... at least, as the question has been projected to us on the cave wall. Since your friend seems to be no expert, but willing to spend a lot of money on a piano, here's my one piece of advice: He should consider engaging a consultant who DOES know pianos and the market. That might seem like something that just adds to the cost of acquiring a piano, but if my experience is of any value, just the opposite is true: A good consultant can help facilitate making the right choice and can REDUCE the overall amount you spend on the instrument. When I did my search, I realized early on that the sellers knew MUCH more about pianos than I did, as a relative novice. That's almost always going to be true, given that few of us will buy a lot of fine pianos in our lifetimes. Even more true when the buyer is a piano novice. Information assymetry is a bad thing in such a case and can easily lead to choosing the wrong piano, overpaying for it, massive buyer's remorse, family strains, skin rash, premature death, and so on. (You want overwrought? You got it!) So in my case I engaged Steve Cohen professionally to help me work through the various issues and help me develop a plan for making my choice. The bottom line is that I got a fantastic piano, at a great price, with as much understanding behind my decision as I might ever get, and with zero resulting buyer's remorse. My advice to your friend is to engage someone to help clarify his thinking and choices. I suspect it would help him.
"Don't let the devil fool you - Here comes a dove; Nothing cures like time and love." -- Laura Nyro
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 2,400
2000 Post Club Member
|
OP
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 2,400 |
Skin rashes and premature death are to be avoided, to be sure. I agree in principle with your idea. The reason for the proxy was a) I knew about pianoworld.com and he did not, and b) I'm a faster typist. Nonetheless, c) we both appear to either need (i) more hobbies, or (ii) more work to do. Possibly both. Anyhoo. I guess the approach was deemed to be appropriate simply because it seems as if there is a low likelihood of buyer's remorse because the pianos considered are all new and of general playability, and also because considering nobody yet plays the piano, it's likely that instead of generating a preference first, that the piano bought itself dictate the preference. He, himself, will never learn piano, and his kids will play the instrument available to them. Initially he was looking at older, restored pianos and I'm quite certain that would have been a seriously risky scenario with great chance of buyer's remorse and I first told him that the only way to do that was to hire someone to evaluate it for him. Once he was off used/restored pianos, I feel like the rest of this is purely academic and we're both enjoying hearing people's thoughts and preferences! Taken together in the aggregate, you guys make a terrific consultant!
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,186
3000 Post Club Member
|
3000 Post Club Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,186 |
If one good piano is just as good a choice for any of us as any other good piano, I wonder why we all spend so much time and energy agonizing over the decision?
Oh well. I'm glad I did. Whether your friend wants to is up to him.
Over and out.
"Don't let the devil fool you - Here comes a dove; Nothing cures like time and love." -- Laura Nyro
|
|
|
|
|
|
Piano
by Gino2 - 04/17/24 02:34 PM
|
Piano
by Gino2 - 04/17/24 02:23 PM
|
|
Forums43
Topics223,408
Posts3,349,457
Members111,637
|
Most Online15,252 Mar 21st, 2010
|
|
|
|
|
|