Ok, so we're zeroing in on a piano.

It looks like the space would do nicely with a 7 foot piano, so we're looking at pianos in the mid-6 foot to mid 7's.

Bosendorfer and Steinway are now out. Regardless of whether or not he's right that "Hamburg" Steinways are palpably better than the New York ones, the fact is that they are still significantly more expensive than something in the Shigeru Kawai line, and he is digging those pianos irrespective of its price savings.

So now we're down to Kawai, Kawai's "Shigeru" line, or a Yamaha.

He found a website that put various models into quality categories, and when you sort them that way, Kawai comes out ahead. Of course, the huge assumption here is that the quality categories are accurate which I really don't know.

So now that I've muddied the waters, here are my questions:

1) Is Kawai "better" than Yamaha in terms of bang for your buck? That is, you get further up in Kawai's line with the same money than Yamaha. For example, both the Kawai RX7-BLK and the Yamaha C7 are in the same quality grouping. But the Kawai is $40k, and the Yamaha is $48k. Are they similar in quality so that it just comes down to sound preference at that point?

2) What about Shigeru Kawai? Looking only at the same length piano, Shigeru Kawai has an SK-7, which invoices at $52K, but the quality category jumps up. Is it $12k better in quality when compared to its brother in the Kawai line, the RX7?

Yamaha appears to offer the CF-6 at $56k, but the quality category is no higher than the pianos in question 1.

3) Prices are obviously guesstimates. Is there something I should know about the street prices of these pianos so that their invoice prices are not comparable? In other words, does Yamaha come down lower than Kawai when all is said and done in a way so that what looks like a big price difference here is not as much when you've purchased the piano?

Also, Kawai has several dealers in the area, but to go get a Shigeru Kawai would require driving about an hour and a half. Not ever having bought a new piano, what is the role of the dealer in the first years of a piano's life? Are we just talking about getting it tuned and it's mostly hands off, or is there some great advantage to having your dealer very local because there tend to be warranty issues or other servicing/breaking in that isn't done by your standard independent piano tuner?

If there are things that involve the dealer, will a local Kawai dealer be able to handle issues with a Shigeru Kawai purchased further away? Or are we basically committing ourselves to schlepping an hour and a half to the purchasing dealer for any issue, including early tunings, etc.?

Buying a piano from a dealer an hour and a half away is very common, I don't think it'll be a problem. However, TwoSnowflakes, may I ask you why you boiled it down to Kawai and Yamaha before considering other comparable brands ? If I was on the market for a 7ft. grand, I would surely be auditioning Mason&Hamlin's.

Suggestion: It's unclear that you've actually played these instruments. (I'm guessing that because you say nothing about your reaction to how they sound.) They're all of solid quality, so how YOU feel about the sound (and perhaps the touch) is likely to be THE most important factor in making your choice. This issue arguably should even override the answers to the important questions you ask.

If I'm right and you haven't yet played them all, start by playing them all. If you don't play much, have someone else do so in your presence.

There's an excellent chance that if one doesn't cry out to you "TAKE ME" at least one is likely to not please you, in which case at the very least you could scratch that off your list, making it easier to come to a decision.

I have NOT played either of these pianos. This piano is not even FOR me, and the person who is buying it is not a piano player, himself.

It is for his kids to take lessons on.

Which makes playing them almost a bit inconsequential. I have no doubt I would have preferences, but since I won't be its principal owner, and the people who WILL be playing it don't currently have preferences worth taking into account, it's coming down to quality and price and mostly trying to take personal preference out of it.

As for ME, well, I also need a piano, but I have greater budget restrictions, greater preferences from knowing how to play, and greater size constraints. So we'll move on to me in a little while, haha.

For right now, we're picking a piano for people whose sound/action preferences currently do not matter.

He started with Fazioli and Shigeru Kawai, threw Steinway into the mix (and nixed it due to the perception that only Hamburg Steinways were worth spending the money on) and decided he just didn't like Bosendorfer.

I have been pushing Yamaha simply because you can't just ignore a major brand and also because locally there are a lot of options. But for whatever reason, Yamaha is not lighting a fire for him.

He keeps coming back to Shigeru Kawai. He likes the engineering of it and the innovations. And ultimately you have to love your piano and if you're not a piano player, the things you love will be different, but no less legitimate. At least that's my thought about it.

As for me, my own personal nostalgic sound is probably a Yamaha. I grew up with a so-so upright and played a Steinway at my teacher's studio. I like a light action and a bright sound but often hear pianos that have sort of a ultra-bright sound that grates, so I know there's a limit to how bright I want to hear when I play. I know my dear friend just got a Yamaha and it is a pleasure to play. But after a while I have to go home! I know she was offered a choice between more mellow or more bright and she chose more mellow. I definitely like it.

I know the brightness/mellowness can be adjusted in general, and I guess I'd want to know more about the action which I suppose is harder to adjust later?

Eh, forget it. My questions and purchase process is ultimately going to be way different than his.

Though if I found something to like about Kawai, we could probably both benefit from buying two pianos at the same time, right? Mine will be so much smaller and less expensive, though!

My experiences playing Shigeru Kawai models is they are a cut above the regular Yamaha C series and Kawai RX series. Whether an instrument of this level and price is the right tool for the job is up to you. Also the case is rather distinct (the legs and such) on the Shigeru - something that could be a little polarizing stylistically.

Dealer discounting depends a lot on your local market. I don't perceive one brand to be more heavily discounted than the other in general. Though even more expensive, there is the new CF line of Yamaha pianos to consider if you're limiting yourself to these two brands. It's a new piano that very few of us have actually played (but those who have comment very positively).

The Shigeru Kawai is definitely a wonderful piano with a very refined sound. I've played the SK2,SK3 and SK7. The SK7 was truly a fantastic instrument with a marvelous balanced sound and incredibly playable and controlable action. It was one of the finest pianos I've ever played. It wasn't as boisterous a piano as the Estonias a few feet away, but it made me a better player. The Kawai RX series and Yamaha C series are essentially equivalent in quality but sound very different.

I do think it a bit odd to throw out NY Steinway. Yes it can take some looking to find a good one, but the fact remains they can be exquisite pianos and they're not hard to sell. The good ones do seem to get snatched up quickly and they are more expensive than many, but they're apparently not out of your price range if you've already considered Hamburg Steinway and Bosendorfer.

If you're considering pianos with superior engineering features then you must consider Mason & Hamlin. They also have composite actions and include a crown retention system. They're also great instruments many consider on a par with Steinway (somewhere between NY and Hamburg). They sound and play great. I played one M&H BB that was a joy to behold.

The bottom line is you really should shop, play and listen more before making your decision.

Thanks. That's very helpful to know.

I think the fact is that basically any piano above the very bottom of the line in any of these brands will be more than sufficient for the job. I studied for many years as a child and young adult and I know that any of these would have been a dream to have in my home. Anything other than the Schoninger upright I tolerated for 15 years and still have in my house and curse every time I sit down and try to enjoy myself or accompany my daughter on the violin. At least back then it held a tune. Anyhooooooo. I digress.

I think that just knowing my friend preferences at this point, his "splurge" brand is going to be Shigeru Kawai so the CF series won't be on his short list.

Something about it is really jazzing him, so ultimately I'm pretty sure the question is between the Kawai RX or the Shigeru SK. He doesn't like the idea of a Yamaha enough to overcome the fact that it's more expensive.

If you were him, and had to buy a piano with no way to really have an appreciation for the difference other than the general desire to own a quality instrument, would you buy the RX or the SK? He has the money to spend, but obviously wouldn't toss $8000 down the toilet for no reason, either.

To each their own. I played a Shigeru. Eeh. Not bad.
I played a Bosendorfer and felt like I was being touched by the hand of God.
Estonia's are nice too.

Let me get this straight. This guy is willing to drop $50,000+ on a piano for his kids to start learning on? Wow, must be nice.

Here is a guy playing a Shigeru Kawai SK-7

Even on Youtube - to me it sounds wonderful.

Think this might be enough piano for 3 kids to learn on?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tta25bsm1yA&feature=related

I'll have you know that this bothered my friend enough that he wanted to sort of explain why it didn't survive some of the initial rounds. Mason and Hamlin was put aside along with a few other ideas such as Estonia, August Forster and its ilk. And not because they were bad instruments but simply because the process didn't lend itself to keeping those in the running.

Simply put, I think what he means to say is that it all comes back to the fact that experts and non-experts make decisions very differently. Which makes sense. When one possesses the requisite knowledge discriminate among things without having to rely on outside counsel, one can simply pick among the things one already knows about. I think we all agree that it would be ideal to be an accomplished pianist with plenty of time and the budget of a king. No doubt the best piano gets chosen.

But when one comes into a decision where the requisite knowledge is not there, you have to quickly identify the sphere of choices and then quickly seek out a few broad--and often blunt--outside principles to narrow the field. And Mason and Hamlin was discarded early because it didn't leap to the front when the first culling of models was done. And for reasons that might not at all correspond to its objective worthiness (i.e. there weren't a lot of blog posts that waxed rhapsodic about Mason and Hamlin). But if one choice among what's left still gets you within spitting distance of ideal, then arguably you've still made the right decision.

How's that for an overly academic, overwrought answer to a question you probably already forgot you asked?? Which of course begs the additional question: if we have the time to sit here and navel gaze, wouldn't that time be better spent learning to play the piano and have made the decision from a position of knowledge?

Well, to be fair, we're all in the same luxurious boat. After all, there are far, far more people in the world than not for whom any piano would serve better purpose as firewood.

Since you were considering Fazioli and Bosendorfer, have you tried any other European makers like Schimmel, Bluthner, or a August Forster?

No doubt. Gorgeous instrument. My daughter had the temerity to complain about the temperment of her current violin teacher. I pointed out that she was so extremely lucky to have even had the opportunity to learn with him. That she should have enough skill for him to agree to take her, and that she lucked out to have parents who can afford to let nothing but her own internal capacity be the only determinant of how far she ultimately goes in her violin...ing.

What a charmed life she is privileged to lead!

Though, tough @#$% on the piano, should you decide to get into that. 'Cause you aren't getting a Shigeru Kawai SK-7 anytime soon.

I'm not sure why I'm still reading this, less so why I'm replying. Isn't it odd for a bunch of strangers to be consulted, not about YOUR piano choice, but about your friend's choice? And then to have us give feedback that you pass on to your friend, who then sends messages back through you about our feedback?

But to answer your question, I think that's an EXCELLENT overly academic, overwrought answer... to the wrong question. The right question is what is the best piano for your friend's purposes, for the money your friend is prepared to spend? That doesn't seem to be the question he's asking... at least, as the question has been projected to us on the cave wall.

Since your friend seems to be no expert, but willing to spend a lot of money on a piano, here's my one piece of advice: He should consider engaging a consultant who DOES know pianos and the market.

That might seem like something that just adds to the cost of acquiring a piano, but if my experience is of any value, just the opposite is true: A good consultant can help facilitate making the right choice and can REDUCE the overall amount you spend on the instrument.

When I did my search, I realized early on that the sellers knew MUCH more about pianos than I did, as a relative novice. That's almost always going to be true, given that few of us will buy a lot of fine pianos in our lifetimes. Even more true when the buyer is a piano novice. Information assymetry is a bad thing in such a case and can easily lead to choosing the wrong piano, overpaying for it, massive buyer's remorse, family strains, skin rash, premature death, and so on. (You want overwrought? You got it!)

So in my case I engaged Steve Cohen professionally to help me work through the various issues and help me develop a plan for making my choice.

The bottom line is that I got a fantastic piano, at a great price, with as much understanding behind my decision as I might ever get, and with zero resulting buyer's remorse.

My advice to your friend is to engage someone to help clarify his thinking and choices. I suspect it would help him.

Skin rashes and premature death are to be avoided, to be sure.

I agree in principle with your idea. The reason for the proxy was a) I knew about pianoworld.com and he did not, and b) I'm a faster typist. Nonetheless, c) we both appear to either need (i) more hobbies, or (ii) more work to do. Possibly both.

Anyhoo.

I guess the approach was deemed to be appropriate simply because it seems as if there is a low likelihood of buyer's remorse because the pianos considered are all new and of general playability, and also because considering nobody yet plays the piano, it's likely that instead of generating a preference first, that the piano bought itself dictate the preference. He, himself, will never learn piano, and his kids will play the instrument available to them.

Initially he was looking at older, restored pianos and I'm quite certain that would have been a seriously risky scenario with great chance of buyer's remorse and I first told him that the only way to do that was to hire someone to evaluate it for him. Once he was off used/restored pianos, I feel like the rest of this is purely academic and we're both enjoying hearing people's thoughts and preferences!

Taken together in the aggregate, you guys make a terrific consultant!

If one good piano is just as good a choice for any of us as any other good piano, I wonder why we all spend so much time and energy agonizing over the decision?

Oh well. I'm glad I did. Whether your friend wants to is up to him.

Over and out.

If your friend is filthy rich, all this back and forth banter may truly be useful and may help lead to a good conclusion.

Otherwise, however, getting a new Shigeru grand for kids who have never played the piano and may quit after a few weeks of lessons that they don't like seems like madness. If your friend really wants a fine, expensive instrument, why not precede that purchase by renting first to see if the children take to it? The moment you drive a new piano out of the dealership you've lost 12.5% of what you paid according to the knowledgeable Larry Fine. Your friend, methinks, needs a little patience unless money has no meaning whatsoever to him.

For what it's worth (not much, but I can't help saying it)... I'm fairly new to piano, have not played many pianos, ie am fairly new to all this. Today I went to a piano store to check out different brands and models, as an educational exercise.

I was surprised at the difference in touch and sound among the pianos in that store. I understand that touch isn't something your friend is worried about, but does he really not care what the sound is like? I suggest he might want to go listen to the pianos he's thinking about, and get the one he likes best, sound wise.

Finally, were I rich enough to consider it and in his situation, I'd consider getting a "silent option", if he thinks that might be a nice feature (ie kids become teenagers and want to play at midnight and he wants to sleep). And a disc-player, so it'll at least be a nice source of music if the kids quit.

Anyway, good luck...

"...I have been pushing Yamaha simply because you can't just ignore a major brand and also because locally there are a lot of options. But for whatever reason, Yamaha is not lighting a fire for him.

"He keeps coming back to Shigeru Kawai. He likes the engineering of it and the innovations. And ultimately you have to love your piano and if you're not a piano player, the things you love will be different, but no less legitimate. At least that's my thought about it."

Well, Snowflakes, I think that's a pretty good reason to like a piano. He may also like having the master tech come from Japan to do the fine-adjustment in his home, which is part of the deal with Shigeru, under the warm wing of our own KawaiDon, who is in charge of the Shigeru division in America, and who posts here. That is something no other make can say for itself.

You've surveyed the market, tried out instruments, asked for opinions, and he's found one he likes. What do you want? As for SK-7 v. RX-7 for the kids to learn on, either would be a lovely choice for the purpose--- just get the Jansen artist bench to go with it, so it can adjust to their changing size as they grow--- and get an expert tech to service it.

I do not see a downside. Surely there is a world of pianos to try. If you're unsure or dissatisfied for some reason, certainly you could keep looking. I have the impression that if something that much better comes along after you've had the first piano for a few years, you could just sell it off and get the new one.

To answer your questions, visit the sellers, try the instruments, negotiate the sales price, ask your questions about how they handle servicing, think it over, and then you will know how they compare. This is the sales model, and I don't think a website can give you a reliably general algorithm which will replace the old-fashioned, hands-on, face-to-face method.

Maybe Two Snowflakes can ghostwrite a book about the friend's quest for the right piano, a kind of bookend to Perri Knize's wonderful story.

It could be called "Grand *Meh*."

Okay, I'm really out of here now, three minutes ahead of the posse...

If someone can afford an expensive piano for whatever reason they want, they shouldn't be insulted or attacked for it. Plenty of people by much more expensive pianos just as furniture.

While the reminder that the children may not stick with piano is reasonable, I think the rest of the post in highly inappropriate.

A good ol' fashioned eye roll would be really satisfying if either one of us were not recognizing that this is a luxury purchase and that ultimately it matters not one bit in the grand scheme of the universe. But the truth is that this is not news.

So I think we're all standing on the same side of the fence here.

Would you say the same thing if he were trying to buy an expensive car? I think people can have different reasons to buy something luxurious and not all of them have to be because they best suited to appreciate it or put it to its best use.

If that were the case, the vast majority of the people who buy a Porsche have no right to own one.

On the other hand, a company such as Porsche stays in business for the rare buyer who knows his car inside and out and gets the most out of it because of the other people who buy it because it's an impressive piece of engineering they just want to own.

Besides, I'm pretty sure renting an instrument for a couple of years is going to cost somewhere within spitting distance of 12.5% anyway. If he can otherwise part with the cash, then I guess I don't see the madness.

On the other side of the equation, whether or not the kids stick with it, I do see one interesting likely outcome: this family is very philanthropic and has a house that has hosted many a charity event. A really nice piano played by someone who could really give it its due would be a great way to connect philanthropic people with musicians, either as a means to encourage patronage of the arts in its own right, or as a way to help other organizations by having a noted pianist come perform for an event.

I know it is easy to presume someone who could buy a piano like this with little impact would have less appreciation for money, but I can tell you that taking one purchase out of context does not really give a whole lot of insight into what value the purchaser puts on money in general.

Suggestions will keep coming as there is no shortage of fantastic 7' pianos. I could throw out several more, but the question is what market are you in? You may or may not want to share this, but it makes it easier to make realistic suggestions about nearby choices.

As far as comparing dollars, the Yamaha CF vs the Shigeru Kawai are more than different enough to have different pricing. I may have missed it in this thread, but the CF6 is rated above the C6 (and somewhere in between is the C6XA), alongside the Shigeru. If it's not "the one" than the power of the brand doesn't trump. Of course, if the roles were reversed, I wouldn't allow the Kawai innovations trump either. Since it is preferred, it's a bonus for you, and that is how I would look at it. I guess this coincides with the opinion that there isn't a mistake among those listed.

I don't yet have my dream piano, and I may ultimately settle for a wonderful favorite if not quite "the dream." Yet If you asked me to point at the one I want for my home, I would not hesitate even after playing so many. That's the romantic notion that comes whether you have knowledge, confidence or experience suitable for such a decision...called "having a moment."

Well, that's kind of the point. If he COULD have a certain requisite skill in it to rely on his own preferences, then I'm sure he'd be driving around to every showroom to try them all out. That's a great part of the buying of a piano....among those who can play. When I'm ready to buy, you can bet that's just what I'll be doing.

In the absence of that, you either have to bring someone with you who can do that for you, or you can gather opinions among those who have done it already.

But certainly it doesn't mean that someone who knows how to play ought NOT to agonize the same way it's always been done: go, play, evaluate, repeat.

Snowflakes, what state are you in?