Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Forum Kawai RX-2BLK or Young Chang YP-185... Or Hailun 178/198?

I've spent a few weeks visiting dealers, and reading posts on this forum. The reading part is quite enlightening, but it has unfortunately "complicated" the process (if you know what I mean).

I want a good (but not fancy) new grand around 6' for my kids (grades 8 and 4). It has now come down to RX2 vs. YP185. From earlier posts, I understand that (most) people think that these are both good pianos, and that I should choose the one I like, and I would be happy with either.

But I still hope to get some more advice to base my "like" on. I don't play piano, and am in no way musical, so it's not easy for me to feel the touch, or tell the subtle difference in the sound. I also believe that there are other factors that could affect how satisfied one with a piano. So here's my appeal:

- Are there factual differences between these 2 models? I know about the M3 action on the RX2, and the 5 year more warranty on the YC. Are there others that you are aware of? Service issues? Resale value?
- Are there subjective/sound/touch differences that would swing you toward/away from one of them? Would love to hear some details here, so that I can see if it would apply to my situation and my kids. (And they are not mature enough to be able to help yet.)
- According to the Piano Buyer, there is almost a $7K difference in the SMP. But here in Toronto, Canada, both are priced at around $25K. I understand that the SMP is more a guidance than absolute, but should I expect to be able to knock a few more Ks off the YC? (I haven't started the negotiation process.) If anyone purchased either of these recently (especially in Canada), would you be willing to shed some lights on what price I should expect realistically?

I would really appreciate your help.

Well to start with...That Kawai RX-2BLK has a 10 year transferable warranty if you decide to sell it.I was told by a reputable dealer tha the RX-2 BLK is the best selling Grand worldwide outside of one higher end manufacture. (Don't know this for certain). If you live in or outside a major metropolitan area those prices are meaningless as far as SMP goes. Trust me on that one.

What is your attraction to the Young Chang? Is it the price point or a tonality specification? I personally love the Kawai Rx-2 and may purchase one in a year.

Rafterman, thanks for your reply.

About the warranty, I just did another search and realized that YC's is 12 year transferable, as opposed to 15 as I originally thought. I was also told by the dealer that RX-2 is the best selling grand. I haven't been able to verify that. I think Toronto should qualify as "a major metropolitan area" by most standards. :-) (English not being my first language), which one did you mean to be "meaningless", the ticket prices, or the SMP? And would there be reasons for the SMP to mean differently in Canada?

About YC, price is one factor. It sounded pretty good when my kids played it. (But I wouldn't trust myself to judge if the sound is better/worse than some other models.) I've also read many posts on this forum (by searching Young Chang, and YP185) and it seems that many people think YC (especially the YP/JP series) is as good as the Japanese counterparts. Some (not all) even believe that YP/JP has surpassed Yamaha C and Kawai RX. To me, "as good" is good enough. :-)

But that doesn't mean I already prefer the YC. Kawai's reputation and history, and the "best selling" aspect (if true), are still very compelling. This is why I'm seeking advice here.

Thanks again!

I must admit that I am not an amateur pianist and my experience is limited, but I have recently purchased a new (as in never used) 2002 JP208. I have done my research as you did and played lots of pianos…even those that I will never be able to afford. The Yamaha C7 I tried was phenomenal and I liked both the RX2 and RX3 (very nice action and feel), but what it came down to in the end was price. The way I see it pianos are like wine. A very good bottle will cost you between $20 and $30, but if you really want an amazing wine you will end up spending way over $100. Thing is…is that extra flavor and taste really worth the additional $70? If you are really into wines and have the money to buy it sure. But if you are not a beginner/intermediate piano player probably a used YP185 is probably good enough. I loved the new C7 I played but at 37K (SMP) it did not “taste” as good as the used JP208 I got for 6.6K (delivered).

BTW, if it is a recent YP-185 (>2005) it is made by Samik and not Young Chang.

My two cents…

Good analogy about the wine and the piano in terms of taste and cost. However, I rarely ever drink wine, so I wouldn’t know a fine wine from a $5 wine-o variety.

Rick

Thanks Poli (and Rick for agreeing)!

I absolutely agree with your Wine analogy (which I think also applies to many other situations). I was going to settle for Yamaha GC1/GC2 at the beginning. I think that could be enough for my kids (I don't see them growing into professional piano players). This forum partly changed that view. RX2/YP185 don't seem to be "a lot" more expensive, but should offer a much better sound, to develop their "musical" skills (not just piano playing).

I think the JP name is owned by Samik, and YPs are made by YC. e.g.
http://www.youngchang.com/index.php/upright-pianos/66-yp185

I didn't want to go the "used" route. Not that there's anything wrong with it, but I don't trust that I possess the patience and skill to get a good piano/deal buying used. (A quick craiglist search in the Toronto area didn't reveal a lot of interesting items either.)

Now back to my questions... It sounds like you feel that the RX2 could be better than YP185, but not certain if the difference justifies the ~7K price difference. Fair paraphrase?

Not known as a good negotiator, I'm not confident that I can negotiate a 6/7K difference out of the 2 "similarly priced" items.

Let me correct what I have said before…I AM an amateur pianist. That said, I think that in my search I had the advantage of living in a major city (Los Angeles) where there are lots of choices when it comes to used musical instruments. I was not known to be a good negotiator until I got screwed badly (excuse my French) a few times…different story for a different forum. Buying a used piano can be a very frustration experience, but also a very rewarding one if you do your home-works, look hard enough, have patience…and are a bit lucky. Before finalizing my deal I hired a well known piano technician that did a wonderful job inspecting the instrument ($75 well spent). I would definitively recommend going for a used instrument but opinions, needs and budget vary widely from person to person. As for the JP-208 vs RX-3 comparison…I slightly preferred the RX-3 (slightly warmer tone, slightly smoother action…slightly better piano in my view) but, again, that slight difference would have cost me 8+K more.

Two more cents…

Another question if I may... If I buy a new piano, typically do I get a chance to look at/try it before it's delivered, or would it go straight from the warehouse to my house, assuming the prep work is done at the warehouse?

Would still love to see advices on my other inquiries.

I think this varies from dealer to dealer; however, I'd certainly want to play the exact piano that gets delivered to my home... new or used.

Since you are writing the check, I think you have some leverage here... reserve the right to see it and play it before the deal is closed.

Good luck

Rick

Kawai is popular and resale would favor it definitely. However, the Young Chang has a length advantage... it is more or less the size of the RX-3. If it is anything like the RX-3, then you should be able to hear the clearer bass vs. the RX-2. If you don't play much yourself, bring a friend or the piano teacher to give you feedback on the action and tone.

Pricing in Canada is just crazy compared to the USA, so without knowing what the typically selling price is, it's hard to tell you which one is the better value. If they are priced the same, I might lean toward the RX-2. If the larger YP-185 can be yours for several thousands less, then it suddenly becomes incredibly compelling. If there happens to be an even larger YP-208 or YP-228 similar to the Canadian price of the RX-2, then oh yea I don't even need to hear it to know the YP-228 must be killer awesome vs. the RX-2.

But I do like the Kawai tone a lot. YC Prambergers are on the slightly bright side but still pretty enjoyable, to me.

Always buy the piano you have tried in the store before you buy. Don't get one shipped to you straight from the factory. Buy the one that has first gone into the sales floor, tuned a few times, inspected by the dealer, prepped by the dealer (smoothing out any uneven voicing or regulation issues); so that it presents its best musical potential to shoppers.

Oh it's pretty easy to tell a $5 bottle from a $10 bottle. And once you start you don't go back to beer

My 76 year old mom has a saying, (one I've hear many times) "you can't drink Champagne on beer money". She has another one similar, “don’t feed me cornbread and call it biscuit”; Another one… "if you make your bed hard, you’re the one who has to sleep in it". I love my mom!

Rick

>Oh it's pretty easy to tell a $5 bottle from a $10 bottle.

True, but it is a lot more difficult to distinguish between a $30 and a $50 bottle...and sometimes the $30 one tastes better That said, the better wine I have ever had was a $500 bottle of "Brunello di Montalcino"...about $10 a sip..lol It is good to have rich friends...ahah

These are both very good pianos. There is a size difference and you should really compare the 6'1" Young Chang to the 6'1" RX3, not the 5'10" RX2. Personally while I find the RX2 to be "nice" and do everything one would ask in a competent way, IMHO the Young Chang YP offers a more inspirational playing experience with a tone containing more Steinwayesque harmonics and color compared to the more sterile tone of the Kawai.

This is not getting easier...

Fearing that I would not get a good deal on the YC from the more conveniently located dealer, I visited another YC dealer. It was interesting to see that most new pianos there are priced exactly at the SMP.

The particular YC I was looking for (YP185) was unfortunately located in a backroom with concrete floor and surrounded by busy furnitures. I wasn't impressed by its sound (with my limited ability to judge), but I don't know how much of that has to do with the environment. And this is the only new piano that was priced significantly lower than the SMP. > 20% lower. I asked why, and the dealer's answer was, roughly, "I can price it at whatever I want."

I should have tried harder to get a clearer answer, but most of my attention was drawn to some other pianos, Hailun 178/198. (And an M&H AA, which sounded supreme, but I'll stop here and leave it as "not relevant to my goal".)

I had seen a few good comments about Hailun before my dealer visits. I didn't want to consider it seriously, because of the combination of "China" + "relatively new brand". This changed when I saw them and heard them played. I can't say I "wow'ed" or fell in love with them immediately, but they did sound very good, especially considering their prices. 178 (same size as RX2, but many Ks cheaper) sounded quite acceptable for my purposes, and 198 would be a bonus just in case one of my kids grow to be a lot more musical than I am.

When I got back from the dealer, I sat down, opened the PW site, and typed "Hailun" in the search box. There were quite a few threads on Hailun in the past 4/5 years. Most of them seem to be very positive about Hailun, and they showed that Hailun grands have kept improving. Of course, some of the "good words" were questioned, but I've yet to find one comment that would cause me to want to stay away from Hailun.

The dealer has 178 in stock (the new ones with the slow-closing feature on the lid). He only had one 198, which is the one in the showroom. This one doesn't have that new feature, so probably not the latest one could get. He indicated that the 198 is fairly new, because he only started selling new Hailuns about 8 months ago. Its serial#, IIRC, is "05730", in case someone can help verify how "old" it is. (Hm... this doesn't look right. I recall seeing "33xxx" for the 198s in posts from 2009. I may call him and ask.)

I'm *currently* leaning toward the 198. Still cheaper than RX2 but 20CMs longer. But I'm not sure if I should get the one he has, or wait for a new one. Any thoughts on this? (I did hear that having the piano tuned and played a little makes it better than a completely new one.)

One thing I noticed was that it takes less effort to play keys on the Hailuns. YC keys felt "tighter" (not sure if that's the right word to describe it), and RX-2 was even tighter, and requires more effort to play. When my kids played on the RX, sometimes they'd miss a note. I can see this both ways. Lighter keys make it easier to play and may encourage the kids more; but heavier keys will exercise their fingers more. Which is true? And can this be adjusted, say to make the Hailun keys a little tighter?

Thanks again for those who offered useful inputs to my questions. PW is indeed a great resource for us inexperienced piano buyers!

Hi sgao,

You don't mention that you played the Hailun 198 in your post, just the 178. If that were the case, I'd go back and spend an appreciable amount of "seat time" with it, as it's been noted here that the designs for the various Hailun grand models isn't exactly unified tonally from one to the next.

Regarding newness, I wouldn't get too hung up on having to have one built in 2012... the floor models that get to acclimate and be played, tuned, and adjusted for a year or so are generally more stable and have fewer "teething" issues than one that just got here. Auditioning two of the same side by side would be a great option, but isn't feasible at every store. The grand lid closing feature would not be a serious consideration unless you think it would be opened and closed a lot by someone who's not strong enough to do it.

The action feel is important - keep in mind that brighter pianos tend to feel lighter (it's usually psychological). A piano whose action is too light can actually be difficult to control or make playing more "normally" weighted pianos difficult. Just try a variety of brands to see how this compares.

If you liked the YC at your local dealer, don't be afraid to go back and let them know what you found (price-wise) at the other dealer. See if they can make a better deal, because you sound like you'd prefer to work with someone local.

sgao,

I am new to the world of pianos, but I dove in head first in the deep end having done extensive research into the buying process. My two cents...

If resale is a consideration, then I think the Kawai would be a much better option than the Young Chang. The Kawai brand is simply many degrees stronger than the YC which will be reflected in the marketplace.

I didn't read this entire thread word for word, but it seems to me that you should be looking at Yamaha's as well. Their resale value is remarkable. Comparable to Steinway in my experience.

A word about the warranty periods: 10 year vs. 12 year is really irrelevant. If there is anything materially wrong with the instrument, it is highly likely that it will appear in the first few years.

I'm not sure if this interests you, but in that price range, you can get yourself one heck of a nice used Steinway or Mason and Hamlin, which over the long haul may hold its value better than any of the Asian pianos. Assuming you have it inspected by a reputable technician, the warranty issue is really irrelevant in this scenario.

Whatever the outcome, I wish you luck!

I've called the dealer and confirmed that my memory about the serial# was correct. The dealer also reassured that the piano was received late last year and was made sometime in 2011.


I did play (well, hear) both 178 and 198, and the 198 did sound better, which is why I lean toward it.


Agree on both points. I just wanted to make sure that the floor model wasn't a lot older than 0.5 years. The serial# isn't very helpful with the confusion.


Exactly my concern. My current piano feels lighter than my son's teacher's Kawai and sometimes he misses notes that he can normally handle at home. But the same hasn't happened (too often) when he played on other pianos.

Do you happen to know if this is something that can be adjusted?


I may do just that when/if my Hailun enthusiasm calms down. :-) And it's not really local vs. remote. More like 10 vs. 30 mins' drive.

(I'm running out of time responding to gsindela. No school bus today, so I have to drive for the next 2 hours, gathering kids all around the world...)

(OT: I don't get how they determine when to cancel school buses. The little snow in the morning didn't seem to warrant the cancellation, which required so many parents to adjust their schedules to accommodate... Most roads are completely dry now.)


Resale value is a factor, but probably not very high on the priority list. My hope is that at least one of the kids will continue to play for some years. Even if they all quit, maybe someday I'll learn to play. Would be healthier, both physically and mentally, than "surfing"... the internet, that is. :-)


Yamaha is where I started. It seems to be the most *popular* brand. A used GA1E, then GB1, GC1/2, and C2. While I didn't find much that I didn't like about C2, RX2 seems to be a better piano overall. (A "C2 RX2" search here also suggests that more favor RX2 than C2.)

Maybe the word you are looking for is "firmer"?