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#1849077 - 02/21/12 12:28 PM Hammer for 1832 Collard & Collard
jordan_C&C Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/21/12
Posts: 8
Hello! What kind of hammer should I use for pins like in the attached picture? Is there one available commercially or should I just machine my own?


Thanks
-Jordan

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#1849086 - 02/21/12 12:46 PM Re: Hammer for 1832 Collard & Collard [Re: jordan_C&C]
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21285
Loc: Oakland
The best bet is an adapter that slips over the pin and allows you to use a regular tip. They are commercially available. An oblong tip only fits in two positions. The adapter allows the hammer to fit in 4 or 8.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#1849087 - 02/21/12 12:50 PM Re: Hammer for 1832 Collard & Collard [Re: jordan_C&C]
Supply Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 3919
Loc: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
Welcome to the forum, and congratulations on posting a picture in your first thread!

Back in 1832 there was not much in the way of standards for things like tuning pin tips.

There are commercial heads available for a few sizes of oblong tuning pins, as they are called. I would try those before attempting to make something yourself. With a piano of that vintage, you don`t want to compromise its historic value by damaging tuning pins (or anything else) with an incorrect tool.

Are you a technician or has this piano come to you and you simply want to tune it?
_________________________
Jurgen Goering
Piano Forte Supply
www.pianofortesupply.com

Piattino Caster Cups distributor

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#1849114 - 02/21/12 01:48 PM Re: Hammer for 1832 Collard & Collard [Re: jordan_C&C]
jordan_C&C Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/21/12
Posts: 8
Perfect! Thanks to both of you - I just ordered by Schaff brand oblong tuning pin adapter for $25.

I got the piano for $175 (and another $175 for delivery) on Craigslist and I'm not a technician. This will be the 2nd time I've tuned it - the first was when I got it 3 years ago. I used a normal star-type hammer for it, but by the end I knew something wasn't right with the amount of pressure I had to apply to avoid damaging the pins.

Maybe 2 or 3 of the pins got a bit scraped up from that; this time around I figured I'd ask some experts smile

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#1849183 - 02/21/12 03:48 PM Re: Hammer for 1832 Collard & Collard [Re: jordan_C&C]
Chris Leslie Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/11
Posts: 555
Loc: Canberra, ACT, Australia
An oblong tip adapter may still be too loose and cause too much rocking. If so, try using a T-bar lever instead of a normal lever to get better control.
_________________________
Chris Leslie
Piano technician
http://www.chrisleslie.com.au

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#1849244 - 02/21/12 05:23 PM Re: Hammer for 1832 Collard & Collard [Re: Supply]
Kyle_G Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/01/12
Posts: 138
Loc: IL
Originally Posted By: Supply
Back in 1832 there was not much in the way of standards for things like tuning pin tips.


Makes me wonder what the Technicians back then thought of this confused
_________________________
Currently enlisted in the USN

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#1849332 - 02/21/12 08:12 PM Re: Hammer for 1832 Collard & Collard [Re: jordan_C&C]
jordan_C&C Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/21/12
Posts: 8
On that note - 1832 was before the A440. Wikipedia would lead me to believe that an 1832 piano was probably designed around A435 standard... is that consistent with what professional tuners encounter in the field?

I'm going to tune it 60c flat - like I did last time - to avoid damaging anything. I'm sure thats lower than it was originally but it would be nice to know by how much.

Incidentally here is a picture of it:

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#1849360 - 02/21/12 09:22 PM Re: Hammer for 1832 Collard & Collard [Re: jordan_C&C]
Eric Gloo Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/28/01
Posts: 1226
Loc: Richfield Springs, New York
Is it just me, or does the piano look much newer than 1832?
_________________________
Eric Gloo
Piano Technician
Certified Dampp-Chaser Installer
Richfield Springs, New York

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#1849408 - 02/21/12 11:46 PM Re: Hammer for 1832 Collard & Collard [Re: jordan_C&C]
jordan_C&C Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/21/12
Posts: 8
It definitely could be - that date was arrived at by investigation by my dad after talking to some appraisers and whatnot about the various serial numbers. Also its got C C&C stamped on it which might indicate Clementi was still involved.

Also, I had just oiled it before the photo smile

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#1849409 - 02/21/12 11:46 PM Re: Hammer for 1832 Collard & Collard [Re: jordan_C&C]
jordan_C&C Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/21/12
Posts: 8
I'm definitely interested in any input

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#1849428 - 02/22/12 12:40 AM Re: Hammer for 1832 Collard & Collard [Re: jordan_C&C]
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21285
Loc: Oakland
I believe that if Clementi were still involved, it would say Clementi & Collard, if only as a sales point. But that has a cast plate, so it is probably past 1850 or 1860. It is a nice looking piano.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#1849469 - 02/22/12 04:22 AM Re: Hammer for 1832 Collard & Collard [Re: jordan_C&C]
Lluís Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/09/09
Posts: 313
Loc: Barcelona,Spain, European Unio...
THe strings doesn't seems to be paralel! Maybe 1870 also!
_________________________
1942 Challen Baby Grand Piano

1855 Pleyel Pianino (Restoring -> www.pleyelrestoration.blogspot.com )

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#1849488 - 02/22/12 07:14 AM Re: Hammer for 1832 Collard & Collard [Re: jordan_C&C]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1703
Loc: London, England
Really old oblong pins show evidence of being very skilfully hand hammered to all the same size. Even these pins look to be slightly different sizes. Could be the angle and light.

These pianos were strung so that the oblong faces of the pins all face in the same direction so that they could be comfortably tuned by a right handed tuner with a T hammer. These tools are still to be found on London market antique stalls. There are very occasionally levers of the same vintage but most often T hammers. The oblong slot was always in line with the handle. I have seen 130 year old grands and uprights that still had the pins facing in the same direction after all that time. That's skilful stringingand shows just how little we move those pins, even on a pitch raise. Your pins are not all in the same direction. It may have been restrung a long long time ago. There are some clumsy looking swedge marks on the tops of the pins.

Pianos were made to stand at many different pitches in those days Up to 457 but you are wise to leave it at it's current pitch.

Are those sharps rounded at the front? I only ever saw that on Collards.

There is a fascinating book by Dr. Alastair Lawrence, the current Builder of Broadwoods entitled 'Five London Piano Makers' published by www.keywordpress.co.uk. It has a chapter on Collard & Collard.

The old factory still stands. It is an unusual circular building now used as offices. I walked past it only a few days ago.

This piano looks to be younger. Before 1900 but later than 1875 or so. No serial no. At all?
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#1849625 - 02/22/12 12:39 PM Re: Hammer for 1832 Collard & Collard [Re: rxd]
jordan_C&C Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/21/12
Posts: 8
The swedge marks indicate that these pins were cast as opposed to hand hammered? Some of the differences/damage could have been caused by my previous tuning, but these were all treble strings so I didn't have to use much force here.

When I got the piano the pins were definitely not aligned, but I never even considered that when I tuned it.

There are two numbers on a metal plate on top of the lyre shaped pedal stand:
638
15215

I was told that Collards have mostly meaningless serial numbers, though.

I'll see if I can find Five London Piano Makers in the local library system; thanks for the input!

For what its worth - the piano was living in the back of a furniture shop in Austin, Texas for several decades before I bought it.

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#1849647 - 02/22/12 01:24 PM Re: Hammer for 1832 Collard & Collard [Re: jordan_C&C]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1703
Loc: London, England
The heads of the pins are manufactured by hammering them into their flat shape sometimes by hand, more likely mechanically. I didn't say cast. Please read me again. What I was describing was not done recently. As I said, it may have been restrung a long long time ago.

I thought you might like some additional Interesting info on your piano. Your recent tuning doesn't seem to have done much damage, at least in the area of the photograph. Recent damage is shinier than old damage.
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#1849651 - 02/22/12 01:26 PM Re: Hammer for 1832 Collard & Collard [Re: jordan_C&C]
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21285
Loc: Oakland
If you like the piano, consider having it restrung. That would be the best way to take care of the tuning pin problem.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#1849672 - 02/22/12 02:03 PM Re: Hammer for 1832 Collard & Collard [Re: jordan_C&C]
Eric Gloo Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/28/01
Posts: 1226
Loc: Richfield Springs, New York
Any chance you can post some photos of the tuning pins, dampers and strings, taken from directly in front of the piano? How about the action, too? The case is really interesting.
_________________________
Eric Gloo
Piano Technician
Certified Dampp-Chaser Installer
Richfield Springs, New York

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#1849709 - 02/22/12 03:14 PM Re: Hammer for 1832 Collard & Collard [Re: jordan_C&C]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4187
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada
I would not be so quick to dismiss the serial numbers of Collards. Let me show you something interesting I have found here in Vancouver.

This is a photo set of a Collard & Collard #11609(1829). The action and keyboard have been modified from the original.

This instrument has been in my client inventory since 1989.

A couple of years back I began to have a close look at the piano and any signatures I found relating to work completed in the factory setting or later on with the modifications that can be viewed in this photo set. Some of the signatures I found on the beams underneath were also dated; this is how I discovered the actual age of this one. I had always thought the serial number to be the one I found on the sounding board, (101440) but now I think that number was put there when the instrument went under the modifications it now has.

Here is the photo album for that one which lives in West Vancouver. If you enlarge the photos you will be able to read the text below each frame;

collard & Collard 1829

Here is where this gets interesting. A couple of years back a fellow in Cork, Ireland contacted me about a Collard & Collard he had found in a place called Lisnabrin House, a 3 storey 18th century house built by the Crokers on property inherited through marriage with the Coppingers in the 17th century. He had found this photo album online while doing a search.

Now this piano could be the identical twin sister of the one located here with the exception that this one is in completely original condition. Check out the serial number found in the same place stamped into the block by the last bass string attachment. Also of note is the slanted pin block in this one; same as the one I work on here. Many other things about this one in Cork are the same as the one here.

Now check out the serial number for this one; it is #12908(1830) The surprising difference for me was that this one is in oak while the one I have here is blonde rosewood. The rosewood burl was very popular of that time period. Here is the photo set for this one;

collard & Collard 1830

The piano industry went through a great many changes from 1800 to 1880; Sebastian Erard had created the double escapement lever, cross strung plates were becoming the norm, sales of squares were in decline; I seriously doubt that Collard would have been making instruments with these dated components while at the same time keep abreast of new developments and their competition. Remember that W. Collard started Longman & Broderip of 1760 which later became Collard & Collard & Clementi so they had been around a while already.

The serials would have been five digits by the early 1800’s…..

I think with the 1832 for the serial number is pretty accurate notwithstanding any further information on the subject.

_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#1849719 - 02/22/12 03:29 PM Re: Hammer for 1832 Collard & Collard [Re: jordan_C&C]
Lluís Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/09/09
Posts: 313
Loc: Barcelona,Spain, European Unio...
Hi Dan, I don't really think that this pianos come from 1829.. to early, 85 keys? Thats to much for this period, the pianos with 85 keys were started to made in 1860! , also the pianos from 1830's were "clavecin" shape, and the iron frame looks to modern, this pianos looks like 1860 both.
_________________________
1942 Challen Baby Grand Piano

1855 Pleyel Pianino (Restoring -> www.pleyelrestoration.blogspot.com )

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#1849853 - 02/22/12 08:50 PM Re: Hammer for 1832 Collard & Collard [Re: jordan_C&C]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4187
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada

Hi Lluis,
I am guessing with a lot of this, and only going by the dates and numbers that I find. When I return there I will try to shoot some photos of the dates written underneath.
Maybe some of the fellows from Britain will help with this if they know anymore as I mentioned earlier. I was thinking of Bill Kibby-Johnson who runs the Piano History Centre over there.
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#1849942 - 02/23/12 01:27 AM Re: Hammer for 1832 Collard & Collard [Re: jordan_C&C]
Aussie tuner Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 75
Loc: South Australia
I just wonder if the legs are original? I have some very good photos of a 1856 Collard and Collard I have tuned but I can't see the link to paste a photo into this message? Can someone help me please.
Thanks
Robin

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#1849960 - 02/23/12 02:30 AM Re: Hammer for 1832 Collard & Collard [Re: jordan_C&C]
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21285
Loc: Oakland
I agree that none of these pianos are likely to be from 1832 or thereabouts. I particularly doubt any of them are from the time before Clementi retired from the business, which was in 1831. The plates all look cast, which would not be until much later.

It would be interesting to see the actions. If they are Erard actions, they could not be from that era.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#1851182 - 02/25/12 01:03 AM Re: Hammer for 1832 Collard & Collard [Re: BDB]
jordan_C&C Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/21/12
Posts: 8
...update:

I got my adapter, but its far too loose to use. I'd be better off with hammer as-is. I'm going to take some measurements and machine a new tip for my hammer tomorrow.

With regard to dates of manufacture: someone mentioned over-strung. My piano (pictured above) is over-strung, and after some internet research/wikipeding it its apparent that my piano is 1860s+, despite the 1832 serial number.

For cast frames: I read that they were patented in the US in 1827 - how long did it take for the technology to propagate to other manufacturers? Was the industry using wrought iron prior to cast iron, or wood?

I'll take some photos of the action this weekend.

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#1851191 - 02/25/12 01:25 AM Re: Hammer for 1832 Collard & Collard [Re: jordan_C&C]
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21285
Loc: Oakland
If it is overstrung, it probably dates from no earlier than the late 1870s. It would have to be after Steinway's patents ran out.

Before cast frames, they were made up of bar and plate stock, originally of wood, later of iron. They would have been bolted together.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#1851226 - 02/25/12 03:53 AM Re: Hammer for 1832 Collard & Collard [Re: jordan_C&C]
Chris Leslie Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/11
Posts: 555
Loc: Canberra, ACT, Australia
Have you tried using a T-bar on your adapter? The looseness won't matter so much if you can keep the tip vertical and steady.
_________________________
Chris Leslie
Piano technician
http://www.chrisleslie.com.au

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#1851446 - 02/25/12 01:07 PM Re: Hammer for 1832 Collard & Collard [Re: jordan_C&C]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4187
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada
Originally Posted By: Aussie tuner
I just wonder if the legs are original. I have some very good photos of an 1856 Collard and Collard I have tuned but I can't see the link to paste a photo into this message? Can someone help me please?
Thanks
Robin


This is one of BDB's postings on the subject that I have shamelessly stolen and transmuted to these pages:

It is easy. Get your picture file ready, sized appropriately. Go here, and follow the instructions. When it is uploaded, you will get an email with the address. Choose the full reply form, and choose the fourth button from the left. Copy the address, and the picture will show up.
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#1851556 - 02/25/12 04:10 PM Re: Hammer for 1832 Collard & Collard [Re: jordan_C&C]
Aussie tuner Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 75
Loc: South Australia
Thanks Dan,
I go and set that up ;-) I took a quite a few photos of this piano and for it's age it is in good condition.
Robin

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#1851622 - 02/25/12 06:02 PM Re: Hammer for 1832 Collard & Collard [Re: jordan_C&C]
Aussie tuner Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 75
Loc: South Australia
Here is the photo of the 1856 Collard and Collard. I took some of the action as well but will see how this photo turns out.
robin

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#1851629 - 02/25/12 06:12 PM Re: Hammer for 1832 Collard & Collard [Re: jordan_C&C]
Aussie tuner Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 75
Loc: South Australia
I see the piano came through OK so here is the side view of the Action. The piano is in a very old house in South Australia which is now a tourist museum. My point was about the legs is that most pianos I see of that age have legs as per the photo. I tuned it one semitone flat and it had oblong tuning pins ;-(
robin
http://www.pianoworld.com/Uploads/files/DSC04118.JPG

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#1851672 - 02/25/12 07:08 PM Re: Hammer for 1832 Collard & Collard [Re: jordan_C&C]
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21285
Loc: Oakland
That has a composite plate and English (non-repetition) action, so the date looks correct.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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