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Topic Options
#1846299 - 02/16/12 06:05 PM What do YOU do to gain/maintain finger dexterity?
ilovechopin Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/09/12
Posts: 20
Loc: Swindon UK
Do you play Mozart Sonatas?
Play lots of techinical exercises?
Hanon,Czerny?
Bach Prelude and Fugues?
Mixture of the above?

Im just interested in knowing how you gain/maintain finger dexterity? I doubt I've listed many of the ways so please share away!
_________________________
Working on:
Bach Prelude and Fugue in B flat No.21 WTC 1
Beethoven Sonata Op 14 No.1
Field Sonata No.1
Chopin Op 42
Brahms Intermezzo Op.118 No.2




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#1846497 - 02/16/12 11:46 PM Re: What do YOU do to gain/maintain finger dexterity? [Re: ilovechopin]
Ted Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/03/02
Posts: 1522
Loc: Auckland, New Zealand
I use my Virgil Practice Clavier for about ten minutes night and morning.
_________________________
"It is inadvisable to decline a dinner invitation from a plump woman." - Fred Hollows

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#1846508 - 02/17/12 12:10 AM Re: What do YOU do to gain/maintain finger dexterity? [Re: ilovechopin]
Horowitzian Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8453
Originally Posted By: ilovechopin
Do you play Mozart Sonatas?
Play lots of techinical exercises?
Hanon,Czerny?
Bach Prelude and Fugues?
Mixture of the above?

Im just interested in knowing how you gain/maintain finger dexterity? I doubt I've listed many of the ways so please share away!


I warm up for a bit with scales and a certain Brahms exercises selected by my teacher (I don't know which ones they are in the book, sorry; he just shows them to me and I learn them by rote).

I have cold hands in the winter too, so if my hands are cold I will let hot water from the tap run over my wrists. Works quite well!
_________________________
Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.

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#1846522 - 02/17/12 12:50 AM Re: What do YOU do to gain/maintain finger dexterity? [Re: ilovechopin]
Opus_Maximus Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/27/04
Posts: 1517
I credit the development of my core finger technique to Pischna practiced slowly, with big sounds, and big wrist motions.

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#1846528 - 02/17/12 01:06 AM Re: What do YOU do to gain/maintain finger dexterity? [Re: ilovechopin]
wr Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 8195
A slew of Hanon and Dohnanyi exercises, plus etudes by Clementi, Moscheles, Moszkowski, Chopin, Dohnanyi, Tagliapietra, and Persichetti.

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#1846588 - 02/17/12 06:08 AM Re: What do YOU do to gain/maintain finger dexterity? [Re: ilovechopin]
trigalg693 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/08
Posts: 708
My teacher would probably be unhappy to hear this, but I don't really do specific exercises blush.

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#1846607 - 02/17/12 07:33 AM Re: What do YOU do to gain/maintain finger dexterity? [Re: ilovechopin]
bennevis Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5926
I do finger exercises from Geoffrey Tankard's volume of 'Piano Technique'.
_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

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#1846617 - 02/17/12 08:14 AM Re: What do YOU do to gain/maintain finger dexterity? [Re: ilovechopin]
Orange Soda King Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/25/09
Posts: 6150
Loc: Louisville, Kentucky, United S...
I focus primarily on my basic hand position, and anything I play, I do lots and lots of slow practice.

I have no problems with exercises, I think they are good, and I sometimes do them, but currently, I have many scalar passages in the music I'm playing so I do lots of slow practice on those, so it increases my dexterity AND I'm improving the repertoire I'm playing.

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#1846659 - 02/17/12 09:51 AM Re: What do YOU do to gain/maintain finger dexterity? [Re: ilovechopin]
gooddog Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/08/08
Posts: 4904
Loc: Seattle area, WA
I practice a lot.

I do not do exercises or scales and never have, (do not follow my example), but I have been blessed with nimble fingers. I have always done all my dexterity and speed work within the music I am learning. These days, I warm up with the page of triplets in Beethoven's Opus 53, 2nd movement. Then I move to the LH runs that are earlier in that movement. Sometimes I play Bach.
_________________________
Best regards,

Deborah

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#1846664 - 02/17/12 09:59 AM Re: What do YOU do to gain/maintain finger dexterity? [Re: ilovechopin]
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19941
Loc: New York City
I always practice my pieces lin tempo which is much more linteresting than doing exercises. I do play some Choplin Etudes but never any Hanlin or HameLin. My favorite pianist is Lin Lin.


Edited by pianoloverus (02/17/12 10:05 AM)

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#1846702 - 02/17/12 11:01 AM Re: What do YOU do to gain/maintain finger dexterity? [Re: ilovechopin]
pianomie Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/16/11
Posts: 278
I don't do anything specific outside of the music I’m working on. For my purposes I've never had to deliberately gain or maintain finger dexterity. It's there when I need it.
_________________________
'Practice is the great Magician, who not only makes apparent impossibilities performable, but ever easy.' ~ Carl Czerny

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#1846948 - 02/17/12 06:04 PM Re: What do YOU do to gain/maintain finger dexterity? [Re: ilovechopin]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6648
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Practice.
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


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#1847150 - 02/18/12 04:59 AM Re: What do YOU do to gain/maintain finger dexterity? [Re: stores]
stevenpn Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/27/11
Posts: 30
Loc: Pasadena, CA
Exercises are a great help to me. I like Alloys Schmitt's Preparatory Exercises, op. 16 (which are free as a pdf on the internet or $4.95 on Amazon). They are really efficient and save a great deal of time by targeting the salient difficulties of digital coordination in piano writing. I especially like the Schmitt exercises that involve holding down one or more notes while playing notes with the other fingers. Those are quite tough indeed, but immensely productive (and rapidly so).

Having said all that, I do believe fine manual dexterity is a product of an optimal approach to technique, without which no amount of exercises can do much good. Yes, practicing scales, exercises, etc., will help in any case, but a low plateau is hit early on in the absence of valid technical principles. I recommend chapter 19 of Reginald Gerig's book, Famous Pianists and their Technique for an illuminating analysis of the human physiology and how it relates to piano technique. Most pianists can't tell you whether they're playing with the flexors, extensors, lumbricals, interossei, or whatever else. Few pianists have even heard of those muscles, I'd venture to say. Considering that we use our bodies to play the piano, how can we expect to play with optimal manual dexterity without an approach rooted in the science of human anatomy?

Taking the liberty of summarizing some of Gerig's chapter 19 (with actually itself summarizes the groundbreaking work by Arnold Schutz), we need to find an alternative to the fatiguing and highly inefficient co-contraction of flexors and extensors (which is what most pianists are taught to do) and take up another type of touch that uses the intrinsic muscles of the hand--the lumbricals and interossei. The intrinsic muscles of the hand are much faster to act upon the keys than the flexors, because they're in the hand, not up in the arm--a foot or more away from the keys--like the flexors. Thus, the type of muscles we use is critical in achieving optimal manual dexterity, irrespective of how we practice.

Another book I like very much that addresses the issues of manual dexterity and technique is William S. Newman's The Pianist's Problems. It is not nearly as detailed and thorough as the Gerig book, but is very practical and filled with wonderful, helpful tidbits of insight on the top pianistic challenges.

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#1849164 - 02/21/12 03:12 PM Re: What do YOU do to gain/maintain finger dexterity? [Re: stevenpn]
moscheles001 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/13/08
Posts: 755
Loc: Northeast Pennsylvania
I also do the Schmitt exercises that involve holding down notes (in all major keys), and, because of Newman's book, I practice trills and scales in thirds. Both have helped a lot; the thirds especially.

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#1849200 - 02/21/12 04:14 PM Re: What do YOU do to gain/maintain finger dexterity? [Re: ilovechopin]
scottKantner Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/28/09
Posts: 6
Mostly just Hanon at the start of each practice session.
_________________________
Because paper music is a hassle

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#1849215 - 02/21/12 04:45 PM Re: What do YOU do to gain/maintain finger dexterity? [Re: ilovechopin]
RonaldSteinway Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/08
Posts: 1519
I do Chopin etudes. I like the pieces and I found very useful for me.

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#1849393 - 02/21/12 11:14 PM Re: What do YOU do to gain/maintain finger dexterity? [Re: ilovechopin]
Brendan Offline



Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 5343
Loc: McAllen, TX
Op. 10 #4.
_________________________
http://www.BrendanKinsella.com

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#1849422 - 02/22/12 12:22 AM Re: What do YOU do to gain/maintain finger dexterity? [Re: ilovechopin]
chelle218 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/23/11
Posts: 9
Loc: NH
Lately I do the first 20 or so Liszt technical exercises. Involves mostly holding down keys and playing one or two notes over and over. It's boring as heck, but it's helped my technique immensely - especially strengthening 4th & 5th fingers.

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#1849443 - 02/22/12 01:44 AM Re: What do YOU do to gain/maintain finger dexterity? [Re: chelle218]
AldenH Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/22/11
Posts: 412
Loc: Texas
Originally Posted By: chelle218
Lately I do the first 20 or so Liszt technical exercises. Involves mostly holding down keys and playing one or two notes over and over. It's boring as heck, but it's helped my technique immensely - especially strengthening 4th & 5th fingers.


Maybe get some magazines. If it's good enough for Liszt... =P

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#1850316 - 02/23/12 05:25 PM Re: What do YOU do to gain/maintain finger dexterity? [Re: AldenH]
Dave Horne Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 5291
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
Originally Posted By: AldenH
Originally Posted By: chelle218
Lately I do the first 20 or so Liszt technical exercises. Involves mostly holding down keys and playing one or two notes over and over. It's boring as heck, but it's helped my technique immensely - especially strengthening 4th & 5th fingers.


Maybe get some magazines. If it's good enough for Liszt... =P


Owning a Kindle has made reading while warming up a piece of cake. smile
_________________________
website

mp3\wav files

AvantGrand N3, CP5

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#1850472 - 02/23/12 10:55 PM Re: What do YOU do to gain/maintain finger dexterity? [Re: ilovechopin]
Scott Prell Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/30/04
Posts: 101
Loc: Diamond Bar, CA
First Hanon. Then I pick my nostrils with fingers 1-5 of each hand.
_________________________
"Amateurs practice until they get a piece right. Professionals practice until they can't get it wrong."

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#1851384 - 02/25/12 10:54 AM Re: What do YOU do to gain/maintain finger dexterity? [Re: ilovechopin]
dolce sfogato Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/29/10
Posts: 2679
Loc: Netherlands
Chopin op.10/25 and Bach WTK 1/2
_________________________
Longtemps, je me suis couch de bonne heure, but not anymore!

Mussorgski tableaux d'une exposition/Ravel miroirs

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#1851645 - 02/25/12 06:29 PM Re: What do YOU do to gain/maintain finger dexterity? [Re: Scott Prell]
piano joy Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/28/11
Posts: 807
Loc: Florida
Originally Posted By: Scott Prell
First Hanon. Then I pick my nostrils with fingers 1-5 of each hand.


laugh

I hope I never play a piano after you.....
_________________________
I don't care too much for money. For money can't buy me love.
-the Beatles




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#1851670 - 02/25/12 07:04 PM Re: What do YOU do to gain/maintain finger dexterity? [Re: Scott Prell]
Horowitzian Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8453
Originally Posted By: Scott Prell
First Hanon. Then I pick my nostrils with fingers 1-5 of each hand.


sick

I do hope you wash your hands before playing.
_________________________
Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.

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#1851815 - 02/26/12 12:46 AM Re: What do YOU do to gain/maintain finger dexterity? [Re: ilovechopin]
Psychic Ravel Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/21/08
Posts: 101
I hate warming up, but I do it anyway, because I spend many days without practicing at all, so I have to do it pretty much.

I usually do a few major/harmonic or melodic minor scales, going in opposite directions. If that seems too boring I might do sixths.

Then I do this 11-chord arpeggio thing...it's hard to explain, but basically it includes doing arpeggios of inversions of triads, including seventh chords. I find it to be helpful.

Then I play some Bach, and then after that I start playing the music I really like to (Ravel....maybe Liszt).

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#1852030 - 02/26/12 12:41 PM Re: What do YOU do to gain/maintain finger dexterity? [Re: Psychic Ravel]
AldenH Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/22/11
Posts: 412
Loc: Texas
Originally Posted By: Psychic Ravel

Then I do this 11-chord arpeggio thing...it's hard to explain, but basically it includes doing arpeggios of inversions of triads, including seventh chords. I find it to be helpful.


I heard Daniil Trifonov mention in an interview that they recommended this at the Gnessins School, and then he demonstrated it, but I couldn't follow quite what he was doing. Could you possibly describe the chord sequence for us?

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#1852108 - 02/26/12 04:31 PM Re: What do YOU do to gain/maintain finger dexterity? [Re: AldenH]
ps1 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/24/12
Posts: 12
Not sure what he's talking about "11 chord thing", but it doesn't really matter. There's no magical or corner-cutting soulution to having a good, solid piano technique.

To play the types of piano works that one hears from professionals, it takes a certain amount of time and effort to attain the degree of technique to play them. Period.

Playing occasionally and warming up with this or that, will not cut it.

To develop and maintain the muscle tone, coordination and flexibility to play at a professional level, I don't think this can be done on less than three hours a day, six days per week, with one hour devoted to building a durable technique.

Scales, trills, arpeggios, tremolos, double thirds, etc., practiced musically and easily without strain, will eventually build the technique. When you can play them with fluency and ease for a sustained amount of time without strain or tiring, say half an hour at about 130, then you have gone a long way toward building a professional technique.

You do not have to practice for speed. Once the technique is in place (and it all doesn't happen at once) you will find there is no problem "playing fast".

And once the technique is well on its way, you can shift away a bit from the scales and such, and put more attention to the repetoire.

The simple truth is, like any other "athletic pursuit" -- and make no mistake, pianists are highly skilled "small muscle athletes", it takes time, patience, consistency and care.

There are NO short cuts nor are there magical solutions.

Other than practicing scales, arpeggios, etc. I think Hannon is fine since it exposes both hands to the same efforts, and it employs a myriad of patterns and covers a lot of what one encounters in repetoire.

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#1852125 - 02/26/12 05:17 PM Re: What do YOU do to gain/maintain finger dexterity? [Re: ps1]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6648
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: ps1
Not sure what he's talking about "11 chord thing", but it doesn't really matter. There's no magical or corner-cutting soulution to having a good, solid piano technique.

To play the types of piano works that one hears from professionals, it takes a certain amount of time and effort to attain the degree of technique to play them. Period.

Playing occasionally and warming up with this or that, will not cut it.

To develop and maintain the muscle tone, coordination and flexibility to play at a professional level, I don't think this can be done on less than three hours a day, six days per week, with one hour devoted to building a durable technique.

Scales, trills, arpeggios, tremolos, double thirds, etc., practiced musically and easily without strain, will eventually build the technique. When you can play them with fluency and ease for a sustained amount of time without strain or tiring, say half an hour at about 130, then you have gone a long way toward building a professional technique.

You do not have to practice for speed. Once the technique is in place (and it all doesn't happen at once) you will find there is no problem "playing fast".

And once the technique is well on its way, you can shift away a bit from the scales and such, and put more attention to the repetoire.

The simple truth is, like any other "athletic pursuit" -- and make no mistake, pianists are highly skilled "small muscle athletes", it takes time, patience, consistency and care.

There are NO short cuts nor are there magical solutions.

Other than practicing scales, arpeggios, etc. I think Hannon is fine since it exposes both hands to the same efforts, and it employs a myriad of patterns and covers a lot of what one encounters in repetoire.


I won't agree on the three hours a day, six days a week bit, because it varies from person to person, but I certainly agree with everything else. I've said it many times here...there are NO shortcuts. Technique is part of that homework I'm always ranting about.
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


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#1852134 - 02/26/12 05:25 PM Re: What do YOU do to gain/maintain finger dexterity? [Re: ps1]
AldenH Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/22/11
Posts: 412
Loc: Texas
ps1, I think that all of us aiming for a career in performance realize the time and effort required to build and sustain a profession mechanism. My interest in the eleven chord sequence is simply for warmup purposes.

To build technique, I work on (always varying articulation, dynamics, speed, and rhythmic groupings):

Scales - a few keys per day: regular octave apart, two octaves apart, thirds, sixths, double thirds, and hopefully soon double sixths
Arpeggios - a few keys per day: inversions, in major 7ths, minor 7ths, half-diminished 7ths, and diminished sevenths
Octaves
Other "combined" exercises - Lhevinne's expansion and contraction exercise: five notes ascending chromatically played with 1-2-3-4-5, thumb/pinky crossover to an arpeggio played with 1-2-3-4-5 spanning a 10th, and then a crossover to 1, starting the chromatic half of the exercise - repeated over four octaves and in all keys. The stretching exercises of Rachmaninoff, Horowitz, and Adele Marcus.
Brahms 51 Exercises - just a few for now, but planning to do all 51 over the course of a year. Already doing some of the interesting ones: 5-1 1-5 crossover, ascending and descending broken octaves (#8, I think) and #29 in octaves alternating with single notes (actually just a rehash of one of the Paganini Variations).
Dohnanyi Finger Exercises - starting with the "easier" set that Dohnanyi gives: 1, 2, 12, and the scale exercises with smooth transitions between keys.

To build musicality and technique at the same time even more effectively and efficiently than simply playing finger exercises musically (which of course we always should do), I think Chopin etudes and Bach fugues are ideal. The passagework in the sonatas and concerts of Mozart and Haydn also are an excellent way to make sure your fingerwork is clear and even, both rhythmically and dynamically.

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#1852430 - 02/27/12 09:19 AM Re: What do YOU do to gain/maintain finger dexterity? [Re: AldenH]
Psychic Ravel Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/21/08
Posts: 101
Hi,

I wasn't saying the 11-chord arpeggio warm-up is some magical thing that makes you awesome just by way of using it. Anyone who has heard me play knows how comparatively crappy my sound and technique is, I just use it as a way to warm up my fingers so I can move on to better things in my practice session. (Also, I am not aiming for a career in performance.)

Anyway, the 11-chord arpeggio would go like this:

If you start on the note, C, you would play through four octaves:

C Major, then c minor, then Ab major first inversion (6/3 chord), then a minor first inversion, then F major 2nd inversion (6/4 chord), then f minor second inversion.....

Then, through five octaves, you would play the following seventh chords:

C dominant seventh (root position), Ab dominant seventh (first inversion), F dominant seventh (second inversion), D dominant seventh (third inversion), c fully diminished seventh.

The same thing would happen if you started on D - you would use the major, the parallel minor, the 1st inversion chords, major and minor, whose bottom note is D (in this case Bb major and b minor), the second inversion chords whose bottom note is D, etc.

I've only done this starting on white keys though; maybe some people do it starting on blacks, but I've never done it/ seen it done that way.

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