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Posting Video clips to the internet

DISCLAIMER: My interest in following “new music”, as well as my contact with music education, and my knowledge of the music recording practices, STOPPED in the 1980s. In some ways, I am attempting to find out what I have missed by not paying attention during the last 25 years.

I should also state that I fully comprehend the reasons why someone like Dave Frank, a highly regarded professional in his field, would utilize video media for “teaching”, and creating interest for his studio, and his learning materials.

I can likewise appreciate why some of the individuals on the beginner and advanced jazz forums post AUDIO clips publicly, because they are trying new things, and genuinely seeking
critique from a specific audience.

A couple of days ago on the general Piano Forum, a young teenager proudly posted a link to a obviously "home video" of her/his hands, doing a very mediocre performance of a piece I did not recognize, with the request that we “share” it. OK - that’s a kid.

A couple of weeks ago, also here, the mother of a teenager asks a searching question about what might be done to further motivate her daughter who “plays beautifully”. Not content with simply posing the question, the mother posts a couple of links to home VIDEOS of her daughter playing.

Finally to my question: What is the purpose of publicly displaying oneself playing (or singing, or whatever)?

It is a sincere question, I am genuinely interested, and I promise I shall not rebut answers.

Thanks,
Ed

Music is for sharing...

Its possible that there may be as many different reasons for posting , as there are people that post videos?

Hi, Kurt,

I appreciate that idea, and certainly agree. But music is an auditory thing, so why videos? Any thoughts on that?

If music is "just" an auditory thing why pay money to see live performances?

I shoot videos weekly for my jazz lessons site. Why? I like sharing and giving back to the piano community. The internet is an amazing tool for spreading music and ideas. Besides...It's good karma

I vowed I would not rebut. You have been a large contributor to this Forum for quite some time. Surely you are not suggesting that a live performance, where admission is changed, is the same as a home movie with sound? I see the contrast, but not the connection.

Sorry, Steve, I certainly should have included you with Dave in my concession that professionals, who are demonstrating and/or performing, use the video media as an instructional and promotional tool. I also appreciate your sentiment about "giving back", like all really good teachers.

I guess what really puzzles me is why would anyone, with very questionable abilities, want to film themselves while playing, and then display that publicly? Further ideas?

Maybe it's something as simple as they are proud of what they can do and most people like to have positive feedback coming their way...if that's possible....all depends on who is listening and what the listener thinks and if the listener cares to share any thoughts.

rada

As an amateur with questionable abilities, I'll give you my answer. First, most of us have questionable abilities. Compared to someone somewhere, most of us are questionable. Compared to someone else, we are terrific. Compared to how I want to play, I'm questionable. Compared to how I played a year or two ago, I'm terrific. I'm not sure what the bar should be that says "good enough to post". Sometimes I have to be really happy with something to post it, other times I lighten up and share however it is at the moment. I think that's very personal, and it's very relative.

As to why to post: I do it to share with my family. I do it to participate in the ABF "Piano Bar" threads here where people at all level post just to enjoy that they've shared their music - the social connection, the sense of accomplishment. I do it to track my progress over time. That it's public is fine - anyone who's not interested will not be interested.

As to why video and not audio-only: because it's more interesting. I actually enjoy video of an amateur performance much more than audio-only. It personalizes it and helps connect with the real person bravely sharing what they can do, warts and all. As audio-only, it can't compare with a professional performance. With video, it's just folks having fun.

Rada, this is interesting. If I am getting it right, the hope is to receive some positive "strokes" for the effort one has put in. But, I am wondering - Is there an equal hope that no one will be truly critical, as in measuring the performance against musical standards?

Thanks,
Ed

There are many very legitimate reasons for posting one's playing, some of which have been mentioned.

To get directly to the folks that Ed seems to be wondering about... I would suggest that there's a certain thrill involved, especially for youngsters, in "going public." Something akin to why people are always jumping up and down and waving in the background of live television shoots... they're excited to be "on TV." I suspect there's a similar force at work for these folks with putting themselves up on the internet.

I personally think posting a video rather than just audio is easier cause of YouTube and cause it probably will have a better chance to be heard. Sites like Sound Cloud are less popular to general public.

LoPresti, are you questioning only the video part of the posting, or the fact of posting at all? Would it be more acceptable for a beginner-to-intermediate player to post audio-only?

If you were to go to a piano recital, with a variety of students from the teacher's most beginning to most advanced, what would you say to the performers afterwards? I mean a studio recital of children (and maybe adults), not a recital by a professional.

If you were to have some of those students in, say, a masterclass, what would you say to them? Presumably you'd feel free to be more critical in a masterclass than after a recital, but would you rip them apart for not being Horowitz?

I think that what's appropriate for type of feedback varies, by level of the player, by what's claimed for the player, by the location and context of the posting/playing, and probably other factors as well.

Larry,

Thank you very much for that obviously well thought-out reply. I think you may have hit right on why I have such trouble comprehending this trend, with your personal reference above.

1980s: I equate, maybe subconsciously until now, the act of posting an audio clip with making a recording. Further, I (subconsciously) equate making and posting a video clip to performing.

Personally, I would never dream of performing in public anything that was not “ready”. ( I realize we could discuss all night long what that word means.) Even more so, I would never think of wrapping up a tape that had obvious clams (and maybe not even so “obvious”, depending upon what the studio was charging hourly.) Go public before the music was completely musical? I simply would not consider it. Except once . . .

Years ago (maybe light years ago!), I made an exception for a Ralph Vaughn Williams piece for orchestra and chorus, making a concession to include it in a concert before it was “ready”. Fortunately, all recordings, including the masters, have been mercifully destroyed. And most of the individuals who attended the concert have either died, are suffering from amnesia (possibly related), or have successfully blotted it from their memories! Time has a way of dulling the pain. If I have a “musical regret”, that premature performance certainly is it.

2012: Back to the present and your point about what “bar” to use to determine if something is good enough to post. Obviously, standards have changed over the years, and I am unfamiliar with the new standards. Nevertheless, I would think that musicality would be a good ruler – Is it played musically? It could be a Bach chorale in half-notes, but either it is good, or it is not so good; and, to me, those judgments are not as subjective as they appear in the written word.

Lastly, I appreciate your point about "With video, it's just folks having fun."
Ed

Beagle,

Thank you for that straight-talk perspective. It makes as much sense as anything else I have heard so far.

So Root Progression,

We have easier, and we have a better chance of being heard. Being a devoted exponent of the Minimum Effort School myself, I can relate to easier.

Not trying to put you on the spot here, but can you elaborate some on WHY I would want a better chance of being heard? More specifically, if I think something on which I am working is worthy of being heard, and those whom I want to listen are not around to hear it, why wouldn't I simply record it, and send it to them?
Ed

I guess as we are going along here, I am questioning why I am questioning anything!

At the heart of it, I suppose I am surprised at the general and wide-spread enthusiasm for posting ones “performances”, both audio and video, for the world to hear/see, as if the world were actually interested. Then I go to Larry’s “Its Just for Fun”, or to Beagle’s “I’m on T.V.” , and I understand that aspect; which in turn makes me ask even more critically, “But why, if one has something worth saying, wouldn’t he/she say it TO someone” (or a specific group of someones)?

If there is an actual reason to prefer video over audio, as when one is demonstrating visual aspects of playing (teaching form, a setting of a concert or recital), then good. If one is showing a still-life of the plant on top of the piano, while somewhat tenative hands and fingers are moving somewhere underneath, then audio only is to be prefered. If the presentation needs the visual aspect of the cat to make it “interesting” - well, you know where I am going with this line.

First of all, who is this Horowitz guy?

We have had enough written “discussion” that you know, that I know, that you know, that there is a huge difference between a live performance and some webcam kinda propped up on the nearest bookcase. It is different in its planning, in its preparation, in its execution. It is different for its performers, and for its audience - the recital actually CHANGES them, especially if they are students.

Forgive one more personal reference: In New York, there is (was?) an association of mostly public school music teachers called NYSSMA. In the spring each year they offer(ed) opportunities around the State for soloists and ensembles to perform and be graded by professional judges. Many years ago, I happened to be visiting a music university at the time of one of these “festivals”, and between my other activities, I was able to sit in on many of the performances. It was surprisingly clear, with no ambiguity at all, which soloists AT ALL LEVELS deserved an “A”, which ones merited a “B”, and then the “C”s and “D”s became a little more muddied, primarily because of the judges’ reluctance to award a well-deserved “D”. Also, the Comments were more lengthy, and harder to write!

There were marvelous performances AT ALL LEVELS – Grades 1 through 6 (back then).

For the record, you know, that I know, that you know, that I would never rip anyone apart, regardless of the circumstances. After any performance, IF a player or an actor has shown exceptionally, I ALWAYS make an effort to get backstage, and say TO THEM how much I enjoyed what they did. Conversely, I do my best to avoid any comment if the news is not so good. If pressed, I’ll probably be honest, and suffer the consequences.

Ed

(cross-posted)


The newer generation has less of a distinction between public and private, especially as regards the Internet, than the older generation. Witness Twitter and Facebook. (Adoption of this attitude is not limited to the young.). So a posting to YouTube is not the equivalent of a public performance in the old sense. It's something new. Sometimes a performance, sometimes sharing something momentarily amusing or of personal interest, sometimes meant as a work in progress to solicit feedback, sometimes evidence to show one's current state, you name it, it could be a motivation. Heck, you're posting here to be read by some people who you only know by our postings, and by a whole lot more people about whom you know nothing.

So, the cat wasn't meant to be a musical example (if you're thinking of the same video I'm thinking of), it was meant to be, "hey, here's this funny thing that happened in the studio the other day," making conversation as you might with some friends after work. The fact that it has been posted for a world-wide audience really doesn't figure in, in the new way of relating to the Internet. The mother asking for advice motivating her daughter, thought her daughter played well IIRC; in any case, the video was meant to give us more information about her daughter to help people understand her level and try to think of motivators. The posts on the ABF recitals are meant to be people's best try at a given point in time, hopefully polished but everyone is encouraged to take part, regardless of how accomplished they are or are not, much like a teacher's recital. And like a live recital of students at various stages, things aren't always perfect. In the Pianists' Corner, people sometimes post with works in progress looking for critical feedback, like playing for a teacher, but being able to get feedback from lots of people. Other people sometimes post very much as a public performance in the sense you're thinking of, and in that case if they're good they get praised, and if they've overestimated their accomplishments they get roasted.

So, lots of reasons for posting, lots of different expectations for what kind of feedback one wants, and a much different understanding of the formality that used to be associated with releasing a recording for wide consumption, and a different understanding of public vs. private boundaries.

Actually my cat was made up, as was my bookcase and my potted plant, although I think it is quite telling that there is such a current video. If the shoe fits?

As always, I sincerely appreciate the time and careful thought exhibited. There is a lot here to digest, with points well taken about new and completely different.

?? Twitter and Facebook?? A composer and his lyracist?
Ed

There are plenty of live performances that you can go watch for free. There are street performances for example. I was just refuting the idea that music is an auditory thing. Being present physically/visually is still an important part of music, whether it's watching live shows, watching dvd or watching a youtube performance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_hlVrFHE_A


I think part of the problem may be that you are holding on to this notion that a performance has to meet some kind of standard before you make it public... and IMO i really don't think that really matters. If the poster and the people participating in it are enjoying it, why does it matter why you or anyone think of in terms of quality? I can say the same thing about a lot of church music. My aunt sings in her church choir and I personally have hard time listening to her sing because she is really out of tune most of the time, but then again, people are getting something out of it. It's the thought/act that matters.

It's also important to remember that this need for quality can often become inhibition, and it can actually get in the way of becoming a better musician.

As Bill Evans once said

"often has an advantage over the professional musician. This advantage is a naivete that professionals must fight to preserve if the creative imagination is to produce the spontaneous, which is the soul of jazz. "

and from what I remember, Julian Cameron in her "Artists Way" talks about the importance of just creating without judging the quality of your work as a starting point, and that successful artists(or people in general) get there not (just) because of their exceptional ability but their audacity to claim the center stage over others, even if it means taking the spot from someone else more deserving.

I am actually experiencing a lot of this in live performances. I've noticed a lot of highly trained college graduate that play very well, but sometimes I just find what they do can get kind of boring,(that is not to say all trained musicians are like that). but at the same time I've seen live bands that are really rough on the edges and not as trained musically, but the energy they bring is incredible, and I'd rather take the latter than the former if it was up to me.

Because YouTube is a convenient way to share these things, and it's easier to send a camcorder file than to cobble something up from a sound recording and a still image.

As an adult beginner who can't afford a teacher I find videos relevant in a number of ways.

It's helpful for me to watch different players' hands, and experience how a professional's movements differ from a less experienced player's It's interesting to note how fluidity of motion often goes hand in hand (oops) with melodic flow. It's interesting to see how tension manifests. It's interesting to see how a skilled player's hands always seem to have time to move gracefully yet always make it where they need to be to stay in time, while my hands feel like they're as likely as not to arrive a day late and a dollar short.

If I were to post a video (unlikely since I also lack funds for adequate video/sound recording equipment), I would be happy to receive feedback on what more experienced players think of the tension or fluidity of my motions, as well as getting feedback on the auditory end of my playing.

And, coming at this from another direction, "Look! I'm can (sorta) play piano!" a lot like "Look! My cat thinks this grocery sack is chasing him!" In may ways, YouTube is more like a post card than a performance.

Great discussion!

I think this is key. It's the old quote: Nothing would be done at all if a man waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault with it.

And there's the quote from Robin Meloy Goldsby right here on PianoWorld:



That was liberating for me. At some point practicing a piece, my playing plateaus at the limits of my ability. But I don't have to sound as perfect on the recording as it does in my head - as I want to sound on tape. I'll just sound as good (or not!) as I am and that'll have to do!

One last thought - practicing to record something that I'm going to post to the public DOES make me a better player. The possibility of humiliation is a great motivator!

Thank you, each and every one, for taking the time to think and post. I am still digesting much of the information, primarily because it is so diverse. As our Rostosky predicted way back at the beginning, there are many different perspectives.

Already it is easier for me to reconcile what I see and hear in these videos if I mentally frame it as "completely different from", rather than simply a new version of, performance in the traditional sense.

As I mull over more of what has been written here, I hope that I may again tap back into this "brain trust" for answers and clarification.

I appreciate it.
Ed

Larry B

I've came across so many situations in life where I felt like people who weren't qualified were getting the spotlights they don't really deserve(IMO), and as much as I hate that, I've come to realize that I have to give them credit for putting themselves out there. It's a lot of work to promote yourself and do the stuff they do. That is not to say I enjoy what they do musically, I still do think they are better off spending all that time promoting on becoming better musicians, but then again their goals in music is different than mine.

Elizabeth Gilbert talks about similar ideas in her TED talk.

http://www.ted.com/talks/elizabeth_gilbert_on_genius.html

I think we all go through what Melody said and what you described. I don't know anyone who is absolutely satisfied with their musical output. Everyone I know is very critical of their own work, but they still write/perform/produce music anyways. Some people wait for their entirely life, and they still feel like they are not ready to do something in public.

"our" Rostosky. awww. I feel warm and loved.!!

As well you should!

Actually, I was getting into the spirit of this "completely new and different" - and attempting to pick up some of the internet lingo - as in
" wa U dun up @ this OUR , Rostosky?"

Good quote. It reminds me of something someone said to me once that has stuck with me: The only way to become good at something is to have the courage to be bad at it for a while.

LoPresti: "Finally to my question: What is the purpose of publicly displaying oneself playing (or singing, or whatever)?"

Several months ago I decided to post two videos of me playing piano on YouTube and I play to do more. I am an extremely shy and private person - I did not do this in order to draw attention to myself or to be complimented or flattered. Here are my reasons:

a. I was preparing for a recital and recording helped create a sense of playing before an audience and also helped expose some weak areas (I did multiple takes). The final version I posted was decent but had room for improvement.

b. I decided to get brave and share the link with my friends in order to give them a peak into my life and, in a sense, make myself accountable to them. I need to become comfortable with playing in front of others and in order for this to happen, "others" need to know I've been taking piano lessons.

c. I posted my videos for other adults who may be working on learning the same pieces. There are few videos out there of pieces at my level (around 4-5) being performed by adults. This is too low a level for professional pianists to bother with (not even teachers as near as I can tell) - but it is easy to find videos of ten year-olds (and younger) playing fast, but not necessarily very musically. Personally, I'd prefer to watch and listen to an adult performance, even with mistakes, rather then watch a kid fly through a piece accurately but without much feeling.

I allowed comments but reserved the right to read them before posting them. So far, I've only gotten one comment - it offered some mild, but constructive criticism. I've had views from a number of countries - hopefully, at least one person has found my videos helpful on their own piano journey.

Thanks, AprilMae,

I fully understand the self-critique aspect of audio recording, and am beginning to appreciate the importance of watching posture, hand movement over the keyboard, etc.

Regarding your friends, why would you not simply invite them over to hear you play, either at your place, or to the recital? I understand that it is "NEW", but why put something as impersonal as a string of electronic machines between yourself and your friends?
Ed

LoPresti: Regarding playing for my friends in person - I have crossed that bridge one by one with a number of friends who live near me (even a couple of neighbors), but posting on the Internet allowed friends in other places to watch me and become aware of my renewed interest, plus it allowed my closest friend (who lives 2000 miles away) to hear my recital piece. I practice once a week on the piano at my church - just to get used to playing with other people around (but usually not in the sanctuary with me).

Also, I was brave and invited three friends to my recital last December - two were able to attend. I am busy preparing a piece for the June recital and will make an even broader invitation this time because I am feeling more confident and am not as afraid of bombing any more (since I already have and survived).

I agree that music is best when played in front of a live audience - and I am steadily working toward becoming comfortable with being seen and heard. This has been a very stretching process for me.

AprilMae,

That now makes perfect sense to me, and I appreciate your adding yet another piece of "understanding" to my assembly of how this stuff grew so big.

I have not yet posted anything of me publicly, whether recording or video. But I did do exchanges with someone studying the same instrument for mutual support some years back. Why not invite her over for a coffee as you suggest? Because we were on different continents. I did not have the equipment so I was limited to recordings, but I saw several videos. It helped my study buddy and me to overcome shyness and we also talked about technical things. I currently have a piano study buddy, and here again it is about support, helping each other keep going during rough periods. Again, we're maybe 1000 miles away.

How many fellow adult students with the same area of interest in the sphere of that instrument do you find locally in your neighbourhood. And why restrict yourself to those slim pickings? And on the other side of the coin there are family and friends who live at a great distance. Again, personally I keep these to private audio. And they're not masterpieces - I'm learning.

A trained professional musician would only want his best work out there. Many of us did not have that opportunity. We're in the same bumbly place as kids taking their first steps, yet have all the outward appearance and sophistication of adults. It's a darned awkward place to be in. We have to swallow our pride and accept where we are. We cannot always get good teachers and performance opportunities to go along the "normal" path - or maybe we're not ready to. For some of us it's a step forward. The crippling thing for older people learning to play a new instrument is precisely the awareness of what good music sounds like, that what they are doing is nothing like it (yet), and the tendency not to want to perform in front of anyone for that reason. Going public in some kind of way -- the Internet being relatively anonymous --- is one solution.

Hi KeyString,

As everyone has come to expect from you, those are all great points, and certainly enhance what others have posted. Personally, I do not wish to inflict my playing on anyone, the visual aspect only adding insult to an already injurious experience; but, as they say, "that is just me".

And, if I ever were to allow myself to become cynical, that highly skeptical side of me posits, "How maladjusted we must have been only thirty years ago, to NOT have had such a rich, creative outlet." But, I would never allow myself that cynicism.

[I want to add:] I can more readily relate to the "private" use of such a tool, as in the way you describe your useage, than the all-pervasive "publishing" of, well, stuff.

Ed

It's a little like the reason to climb a mountain......because it is there.
I am personally fascinated by the technology of posting music online, and do it simply because I can, and not because I feel I have anything new to offer.
Having said that, it has resulted in new friendships, a request for music for a short film, a cinema advert, all things which would never have happened if I confined myself to my little home music studio.

Hi R0B,

Back at the very beginning of this thread, I vowed I would not offer rebuttal. So, with as much "masking" as I can muster, How do we KNOW that you would not have these opportunities? Perhaps not this EXACT movie short, and maybe not this PRECISE advertisement; but, if you did not have video-posting capabilities, who is to say you would not have uncovered similar (maybe BETTER?) opportunities through more traditional means?

Not trying to argue - just reminding everyone that all of these things went on long before WebCams. Oh, and my definition of "friendships" is, undoubtedly, different than yours.
Ed

Hi Ed,
I would certainly have not had the opportunity to have my music heard, beyond my own home, without the benefit of online posting.
Many years ago, I played in several bands at live venues, but now I am pretty much a musical recluse (apart from teaching locally).
The internet gives me a chance to still play 'in public', but remain pretty much anonymous as far as the rest of the world is concerned.