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Page 13 of 14 < 1 2 ... 11 12 13 14 >
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#1869780 - 03/28/12 12:21 PM Re: I've made up my mind about Bach's WTC and ET [Re: Phil D]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4940
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: Phil D
.....

The only way to reduce the subjectivity of these analyses would be to use statistics.

.....

Perhaps it would be beneficial to compare the voicing of all the final chords of all the preludes. Then you might be onto something - that kind of correlation, or lack of, would be well on the way to a piece of objective evidence. I believe Lindley's essay contains a lot of very good evidence, and there are no examples that just sit on their own, and so can be dismissed the way you have done. But if you want real objective evidence, then there needs to be something systematic to it. Analysing the final chords of all of the preludes would allow statistical element that is missing.

Looks like another gauntlet to me!


Thanks for the suggestion! I think I will do just that. I do wonder sometimes why composers choose the chord inversions that they do.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1869782 - 03/28/12 12:25 PM Re: I've made up my mind about Bach's WTC and ET [Re: DoelKees]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4940
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
I don't understand the point of your long post, Deutschle.

Kees


It was in response to your "flamebait" comment. I am not going to try a Nixon comment like, "I am not a flamebaiter." Instead I recapped how I am looking at the problems and allowing those that read to make up their own minds.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1869835 - 03/28/12 02:18 PM Re: I've made up my mind about Bach's WTC and ET [Re: UnrightTooner]
Ed Foote Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 1162
Loc: Tennessee
Well, there is no reason not to listen,

From Carey Beebe: on his Australian site:( http://www.hpschd.nu/index.html?nav/nav-4.html&t/welcome.html&http://www.hpschd.nu/tech/tmp/barnes.html)

>>The late John Barnes, onetime curator of the famous Russell Collection in Edinburgh, published an article in the April 1979 issue of Early Music, titled “Bach’s keyboard temperament — Internal evidence from the Well-Tempered Clavier”.
Using statistical analysis and weighting thirds by their perceived prominence in Bach’s musical use, Barnes arrived at a very useful temperament. When you study the diagram, you can observe that it is very similar to Vallotti, except with with the fifth E–B tuned pure and one tempered fifth tucked further around the circle. What effect does this have? With the B raised somewhat from Vallotti, the intonation of the B Major triad is improved at the expense of the G Major triad.<<


If you’ve just tuned Vallotti, you can easily try Bach/Barnes by simply retuning your b a perfect fifth above e. Naturally enough, to work from the beginning the tuning method will be very similar to Vallotti. Again, let’s work from the a':

1. Tune your usual a' to a tuning fork, and tune a in absolute perfect tune an octave below it.

2. Now we want to find the f a third below that a: Tune it perfect first of all, but then widen the interval by flattening the f until you hear three distinct beats per second.

3. Tune all the fifths from the flat side of F around the circle of keys absolutely perfect until you hit F♯.

4. Tune e' initially pure to a, then lower it a little, squeezing the interval so it has a perceptible beat. (If you’ve been tuning Vallotti, you are already used to the sound of sixth-comma fifths. If you are a piano tuner, these sixth-comma fifths beat exactly twice as fast as you expect from the same intervals in equal temperament). Drop down the octave now to e, which of course must be tuned perfect.

5. Find b by making a perfect fifth up from e. The 5th made from the b to your already-tuned f♯' will not be perfect, but again a sixth of a comma narrow.

6. Middle c' comes next. Tune it a perfect fifth above your f, and then squeeze the interval a little.

7. Find your g' above middle c', again tuning the fifth perfect and then squeezing it. Drop down the octave to place the perfect g.

8. Your d' must now be positioned between g and a'. First of all, tune it perfect to g, then flatten it little by little until your fifth g–d' sounds about the same as your f–c'.

9. Again, if all your tempered fifths beat a little more rapidly in turn as you ascend the keyboard, you’ve done a good job: f–c', g–d', a–e', b–f♯', c'–g' & d'–a'. All the other intermediate ones are pure: f♯–c♯', a♭–e♭', etc.

10. Bring the rest of your instrument in tune with your bearings area, try some Bach and see what you think.

http://www.hpschd.nu/index.html?nav/nav-4.html&t/welcome.html&http://www.hpschd.nu/tech/tmp/barnes.html

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#1869852 - 03/28/12 03:23 PM Re: I've made up my mind about Bach's WTC and ET [Re: UnrightTooner]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3224
Loc: Madison, WI USA
One of Jeff's earliest posts said that when he listened to a harpsichord tune in the Vallotti temperament, it "made [his] skin crawl". So, undoubtedly this would prove nothing to Jeff.

I do, however like the previously proposed analyses of Major thirds. You can see it in the writing even without the painstaking task of a statistical analyses. The Well Tempered Clavier music was given that title because it was written for Well Temperament. If ET was known in Bach's time and he clearly intended for that music to be performed in ET, he would have given it that title and otherwise specified it, such as with an annotation. He didn't. Those who say that he did, however will grasp at any straw. Nobody is going to change anybody's mind about this one way or the other, no matter what is said.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1870151 - 03/29/12 06:57 AM Re: I've made up my mind about Bach's WTC and ET [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4940
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
One of Jeff's earliest posts said that when he listened to a harpsichord tune in the Vallotti temperament, it "made [his] skin crawl". So, undoubtedly this would prove nothing to Jeff.

.....

Bill:

I may notify the Moderators later about your continued abuse of this Forum. You have again misquoted me. Instead, could you look up what I said and put it into the actual context.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1870163 - 03/29/12 07:35 AM Re: I've made up my mind about Bach's WTC and ET [Re: UnrightTooner]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4940
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Folks:

Can any or all of you tell me why you care what I think?

We are on page 13. It does not bother me that you think differently than I do. I really don't understand. I have no need to convince you to believe what I do. I wonder if the problem is you don't really understand what I am saying. And, also, I get distracted by what you all are saying sometimes, too.

I did not fall under this conviction until I actually started playing WTC. It was the convoluted passages that struck me as I tried to work out what they were rather than just playing the notes and enjoying the sound. I am afraid I am at an intuitive stage of understanding right now. I have not figured out just what it is, so I cannot explain it very well. There seems to be a hidden, intellectual pattern woven into the compositions. Maybe like those "magic eye" posters where there is pattern that the brain locks onto when you look at it just so. Whatever it is, is beyond the need of tonal shading. And I think tonal shading can only detract from it.

I will still do the analysis that Phil suggested. It is looking in the wrong place, but will be an exercise in this sort of analysis. What I mean is: proving or disproving WTC was written in WT (whether by historical evidence, subjective listening, and/or analysis) does not address if it was or was not written for ET.

If you don't understand me, that is OK. Glenn Gould played Bach in ET...
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1870195 - 03/29/12 08:40 AM Re: I've made up my mind about Bach's WTC and ET [Re: UnrightTooner]
Ed Foote Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 1162
Loc: Tennessee
[quote=UnrightTooner]Folks:

>>Can any or all of you tell me why you care what I think?

It is not that anybody cares. It is more like target shooting.

>>I did not fall under this conviction until I actually started playing WTC. <snip>. There seems to be a hidden, intellectual pattern woven into the compositions.

Hmm, Ok, if you are going to solve the mystery that has been hammered on by the biggest musical minds for centuries, I want a front row seat. I guess that is another reason...

>>If you don't understand me, that is OK. Glenn Gould played Bach in ET...

Glenn Gould also said, " It has always bothered me, not knowing why the composers chose the keys that they did".

Wanda Landowsky (sp?) also did all her recording on ET. It is highly unlikely that either of them had any experience with any alternative. Their genius didn't inoculate them against being limited by their experience, no matter how musically talented they were. ( Gould is known to be as nutty as Horowitz, who performed all of his Scarlatti on ET. Now, are we going to support an argument to prove ET was in use for Scarlatti because Horowitz played it that way?).
Regards,
( jes puttin' up more paper)

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#1870227 - 03/29/12 09:35 AM Re: I've made up my mind about Bach's WTC and ET [Re: UnrightTooner]
Phil D Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/15/10
Posts: 551
Loc: London, England
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
Folks:

Can any or all of you tell me why you care what I think?

We are on page 13. It does not bother me that you think differently than I do. I really don't understand. I have no need to convince you to believe what I do. I wonder if the problem is you don't really understand what I am saying. And, also, I get distracted by what you all are saying sometimes, too.

I did not fall under this conviction until I actually started playing WTC. It was the convoluted passages that struck me as I tried to work out what they were rather than just playing the notes and enjoying the sound. I am afraid I am at an intuitive stage of understanding right now. I have not figured out just what it is, so I cannot explain it very well. There seems to be a hidden, intellectual pattern woven into the compositions. Maybe like those "magic eye" posters where there is pattern that the brain locks onto when you look at it just so. Whatever it is, is beyond the need of tonal shading. And I think tonal shading can only detract from it.

I will still do the analysis that Phil suggested. It is looking in the wrong place, but will be an exercise in this sort of analysis. What I mean is: proving or disproving WTC was written in WT (whether by historical evidence, subjective listening, and/or analysis) does not address if it was or was not written for ET.

If you don't understand me, that is OK. Glenn Gould played Bach in ET...


You just seem to be one of those people with which arguing is impossible to resist! It happens all the time on the forum - you're so sure of your point of view, and so are so many others, it just creates a wonderful situation to hash out old arguments! smile Trench warfare, I think it's called...

The question of whether the WTC was written for ET as you so subtly put it, is just impossible to answer. This is the question you are trying to address. The question of whether it was written in ET has pretty well been answered, many times, with all the evidence pointing to no. And all this evidence has been presented, in an attempt to get you to change your mind... but you won't, because you're asking a different question. But you still attack all the evidence anyway, out of habit it seems.

So will you concede that the WTC was written [i]in[/] a WT? Maybe your analysis of the final chords will enable you to do that. It really doesn't matter - your original question still stands, and is akin to the question "Why is the Mona Lisa smiling like that?"
But then at least you might be able to drop the thread, if you're so annoyed that people keep disagreeing!
_________________________
Phil Dickson
The Cycling Piano Tuner

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#1870228 - 03/29/12 09:37 AM Re: I've made up my mind about Bach's WTC and ET [Re: UnrightTooner]
Mark R. Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 2006
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
Jeff,

Up to this last post of yours, I thought I understood more or less what you were on about. But now, you have me confused.

How can one write music, i.e. put notes to paper, in a specific temperament, as opposed to for a specific temperament?

Spoken German has many dialects/accents, but they have nothing to do with written German. (I'm not talking about onomatopoeic representation or dialect-specific expresions, I'm talking about normal texts in standard German.) The different dialects/accents only come to the fore once the printed text is actually read alound, i.e. expressed. A Munich newspaper has exactly the same spelling and grammar as a Kiel newspaper. Yet people from the two cities can sometimes hardly understand one another. Even worse is Switzerland, where print (except local expressions) is perfectly normal German, but the spoken language sounds totally different - unintelligble to many Germans.

What do you mean by writing in a certain temperament, as opposed to writing for a specific temperament?
_________________________
Autodidact interested in piano technology.

1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.

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#1870236 - 03/29/12 09:46 AM Re: I've made up my mind about Bach's WTC and ET [Re: UnrightTooner]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4940
Loc: Bradford County, PA
All:

No, I am not convinced that WTC was written in WT. Even if I was convinced it was written in WT, I would have a problem with the proofs that are attempted: sketchy historical evidence and preference based listening evidence. That is why I do not try the same sort of proofs that it was written in ET.

Has any of you considered that Bach called it the Well Tempered Clavier because he knew his contemporaries were not ready for ET?

Something new for you fly wing pullers to attack.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1870243 - 03/29/12 09:52 AM Re: I've made up my mind about Bach's WTC and ET [Re: Mark R.]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4940
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: Mark R.
.....

What do you mean by writing in a certain temperament, as opposed to writing for a specific temperament?


The quickest example that comes to mind is the old Bugs Bunny cartoons. They were in a format for children, but the real humor is for adults. I guess the modern animated stories are much the same.

Hmmm, glad you asked. My answer gives me more to think about. Sort of another type of bi-tonality or something.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1870250 - 03/29/12 10:02 AM Re: I've made up my mind about Bach's WTC and ET [Re: UnrightTooner]
Phil D Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/15/10
Posts: 551
Loc: London, England
Quote:

Has any of you considered that Bach called it the Well Tempered Clavier because he knew his contemporaries were not ready for ET?

I'll consider this for as long as it needs to be considered.

Yep, considered it. It's possible, but there's no evidence for it. Not a shred. How could there be? Now let's consider other things for which there is no evidence...

Have you considered that Bach wrote the WTC for a Reverse Well Temperament? It's possible...
Or perhaps he actually tuned all the notes on his clavichord to be C.
Maybe the WTC is code, and if you could decode it, it would turn out to be the script to Monty Python's Life of Brian?
Maybe Bach was just channelling aliens from Rigil V?

cool


Edited by Phil D (03/29/12 10:04 AM)
_________________________
Phil Dickson
The Cycling Piano Tuner

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#1870276 - 03/29/12 10:36 AM Re: I've made up my mind about Bach's WTC and ET [Re: UnrightTooner]
Cinnamonbear Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 3904
Loc: Rockford, IL
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
Folks:

Can any or all of you tell me why you care what I think? [...]


Jeff,

The issue is not so much that we care about what you think, it is that many of us care about what Bach thought. Many of us feel a responsibility to address questionable suppositions by bringing experience and knowledge to the table, for the sake of accuracy and clarity. I wonder, sometimes, if you recognize the irony of your own words...

This thread has been valuable to me for a number of reasons. I mean, because of this thread, I got to meet and hear and get to know Trevor Stephenson and Norm Sheppard! Because of your Werckmeister question, I learned from finding and reading a simple abstract of a presentation by Dietrich Bartel that there was a theological dimension to the temperament argument that needs to be considered. I also learned how to spell "Werckmeister." grin And Ian's link to that wonderfully laid-out website by Mark Lindley is a great go-to resource that demonstrates the best of what the Web can do with multimedia and careful thinking. Those are the high points. Contributions by Ed, Phil, Bill, Ron, Mark R., Tunewerk, wcctuner and others gave me a lot to think about (as usual), and helped bring things into greater focus for me. Kees and rxd almost always make me smile.

Not only all of that, but your questions caused me to take a much closer look at WTC-1, No. 9 Prelude, which I think, because of its time signature, is meant to be a kind of Giga, and played at a good clip with bouncy articulation. So far, Richter's interpretation is the only one I've found that comes close to that expression by the tempo he chose (not his articulation). I plan to post a recording of that idea as soon as I get it up to speed.

Off topic--at the presentation by Trevor Stephenson, I met a person who co-founded this non-profit organization, which, if you know how I feel about neglected pianos, I think is a wonderful thing that deserves support.

And so, I am glad you opened this thread! I wonder what it has meant to other contributors and lurkers? It really is A Wonderful Life! wink

--Andy



Edited by Cinnamonbear (03/29/12 10:39 AM)
_________________________
I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.

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#1870281 - 03/29/12 10:44 AM Re: I've made up my mind about Bach's WTC and ET [Re: UnrightTooner]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4940
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Andy:

There is a difference between someone disagreeing and putting forth their own views, and going to great lengths to convince another to change their mind.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1870282 - 03/29/12 10:45 AM Re: I've made up my mind about Bach's WTC and ET [Re: Phil D]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1723
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: Phil D

Maybe the WTC is code, and if you could decode it, it would turn out to be the script to Monty Python's Life of Brian?
Maybe Bach was just channelling aliens from Rigil V?

Believe it or not but as a teenager I thought there was something esoteric about the WTC and it was perhaps dictated by aliens. I tried counting things and come up with a cabbalistic secret message (it's known Bach was into numerology). I also kept trying to play the whole book in one sitting seeing if it would put me in an altered state of mind. I tried playing pieces backwards and upside down. Problem is I never got good enough to really be able to play it all at a reasonable level of execution.

Kees

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#1870285 - 03/29/12 10:57 AM Re: I've made up my mind about Bach's WTC and ET [Re: UnrightTooner]
Phil D Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/15/10
Posts: 551
Loc: London, England
Sounds like a case of too much BC bud Kees wink
_________________________
Phil Dickson
The Cycling Piano Tuner

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#1870307 - 03/29/12 11:25 AM Re: I've made up my mind about Bach's WTC and ET [Re: Phil D]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1723
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: Phil D
Sounds like a case of too much BC bud Kees wink

It was the 70ies in Amsterdamn.

Kees

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#1870429 - 03/29/12 02:08 PM Re: I've made up my mind about Bach's WTC and ET [Re: UnrightTooner]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4940
Loc: Bradford County, PA
OK, here is how I plan to do the analysis:

The idea is to see if WTC1 favors choosing lower tonic M3, M10 or M17 in the final chord when the key is more remote than when the key is closer. The idea being that this would result in a slower beating and a more harmonious sound if WT was the intent.

Using Lindley’s temperament, there are 6 keys with the M3 wider than ET and six narrower than ET. So the two groups that will be compared are: Bb, F, C, G & A for the close keys and E, B, F#, C#, Ab and Eb for the remote keys.

The position of the tonic M3s, M10s or M17s can be assigned a note number value (1-88) for the root note of the interval. If there is more than one interval, the higher interval will be used. (An M3, M10 and M17 have the same beat speed when the lower note is the same, but not when the upper note is the same.)

Since the minor pieces end in major chords, all 48 pieces will be included.

The resulting 24 note number values for each group will be averaged and compared. A difference of 1 or less would not be significant because even with a correlation as close as possible between the groups, one group will always have a value of 1 greater than the other depending on where the octave is divided.

But I do not know what would be significant. Perhaps this is a fool’s errand. I will just take it as a “see what there is to see” endeavor.

Comments?
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

Top
#1870531 - 03/29/12 04:09 PM Re: I've made up my mind about Bach's WTC and ET [Re: UnrightTooner]
Phil D Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/15/10
Posts: 551
Loc: London, England
It seems a little simplistic. If I understand correctly, you're only going to look at one interval in the final chord for each chord, and give one value to it. I don't understand how you're going to average it either.

Reducing the complexity down to this level could harm the validity of the experiment. What data are you going to record as you do this? Are you going to make this data available?

What value will a single-note final chord be given? I know there's at least one.

Actually I don't understand the value system you will use at all. Is it relative to the root note? Where is that going to be taken from - the position of the bass root? It might be an octave higher in some than others... could you elaborate?

Depending on what you are planning, I might join you with some analysis, so any data you gather would be gratefully received if you want to share.
_________________________
Phil Dickson
The Cycling Piano Tuner

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#1870554 - 03/29/12 05:03 PM Re: I've made up my mind about Bach's WTC and ET [Re: UnrightTooner]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3224
Loc: Madison, WI USA
I agree with Phil. I think you have the right idea in mind but the focus is too narrow. Take again the example of the very first two pieces in Book I. (I now wish I had the scores so I could find many more examples). The first prelude has close and sustained harmony. The second, in order avoid dissonant sounds, breaks up the chords.

I believe you will find that when you look at pieces written in Major keys with four or more sharps or flats, you will see that the composer avoids close harmony in the third and fourth octaves. When a chorale or "church hymn" type sound is desired, you will find sustained and close harmony within those octaves and the piece will be written in C, F, G, D B-flat, A or E-flat.

One could surely transpose any of these but the best transposition would be from simple to simple or remote to remote rather than a half step up or down.

For many years, I have seen key signature selection from other composers that inevitably followed this rule, well into the 20th Century. The very first piano concerto where I tuned a WT was Beethoven's 5th (Emperor). The Vallotti temperament was the only one I knew well enough to use and I was an aural only tuner at that time.

I was truly amazed at what the temperament did for the sound of the piano! So was a local reviewer who commented about it. The Vallotti, much like the other WT mentioned here, has six keys with slower than ET Major thirds and six with faster. The piece is in E-flat. The pure 5ths in E-flat and B-flat and slower than ET M3's gave the piano this razor sharp, in tune sound.

The slow movement, however was written in the unlikely key of B Major. It has broken chords like those of the Moonlight Sonata and a single note melody that "soars" with its wide intervals. The writing is careful to avoid any dissonance.

Most 20th Century popular songs are written in the simple keys. Many years ago, I was in the cast of Rogers & Hammerstein's Carousel. I studied that score carefully and again found that key signature selection followed these rules. Simple melody, close harmony: simple keys. But when a soaring melody was desired, such as, "If I loved you", the chords were broken and the key signature was D-flat Major. The score is for orchestra, of coarse but undoubtedly, it was worked up on a piano.

There had to be a reason why the composer worked in the various key signatures the very same way composers did in the centuries before. I have written about this before and people have come up with all kinds of other explanations but the answer is as clear as day to me: the piano was well-tempered, the same as virtually all keyboards had been for the two previous centuries.

Early on in these discussions, the "Going Home" melody from Dvorak's 9th Symphony (The New World) was discussed. Patrick Wingren came to Grandpianoman's home two years ago and played that melody. We clearly heard how it was meant to be in C Major if the piano was well-tempered but Dvorak wrote it in D-flat. We then concluded that a simple folk song melody that sounds best in a simple key on a well-tempered keyboard was transposed for wind instruments to D-flat where those instruments could best handle the sustained chords.

Minor keys are another matter in WT. The composer may indeed write closer harmony in the remote keys because the minor effect is intensified. That piece you found in E-flat minor may be a good example of that. It sounds darker, gloomier, dirtier, etc., than close harmony would sound in a minor key with few sharps or flats.

Note that Mozart wrote only in the simple keys when writing in a Major key but he liked the extra, darker sound of a minor key with four or more flats.

In my view, if the WTC music had been written for ET, none of these inclinations would apply at all. One key would have been as good as another for anything and everything. But given the premise that the music was composed at a well-tempered keyboard, there were indeed the effects of WT present and they caused the composer to write in various ways when using the various key signatures.

It all seems very logical and probable to me. If you look through those scores, whether you can play them or not, I think you will find exactly what I have said to be there.

Now, I think it was Doel that had been able to post synthesized recordings of various pieces in various temperaments in the past. One of my favorite memories was the posting of Debussy's "Pagodes" in 1/3 Comma Meantone. That really brought out that Gamelon orchestra effect which I assume was the composer's intent.

If some of these remote key WTC pieces can be posted in WT in the proper key, then transposed a half step but still in WT, to witness how the effects are changed completely, then in ET, both original key and transposed, I think the point can truly be made.

I don't think such an experiment would necessarily change one's preference for ET over WT, but it would serve to show that the music was clearly composed using a well-tempered keyboard.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1870560 - 03/29/12 05:13 PM Re: I've made up my mind about Bach's WTC and ET [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
beethoven986 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/20/09
Posts: 3336
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
Take again the example of the very first two pieces in Book I. (I now wish I had the scores so I could find many more examples).



http://imslp.org/wiki/Das_wohltemperierte_Klavier_I,_BWV_846-869_(Bach,_Johann_Sebastian)
_________________________
B.Mus. Piano Performance 2009
M.Mus. Piano Performance & Literature 2011
PTG Associate Member
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#1870566 - 03/29/12 05:29 PM Re: I've made up my mind about Bach's WTC and ET [Re: UnrightTooner]
Phil D Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/15/10
Posts: 551
Loc: London, England
(laughing out loud at how a simple "I agree with Phil" elaboration turns into another Bill Bremmer Special Essay that inevitably won't be read!)
You don't skimp on your verbiage do you, Bill. I bet you're great fun over a beer or two laugh
_________________________
Phil Dickson
The Cycling Piano Tuner

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#1870661 - 03/29/12 09:00 PM Re: I've made up my mind about Bach's WTC and ET [Re: UnrightTooner]
RonTuner Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 1658
Loc: Chicagoland
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
Andy:

There is a difference between someone disagreeing and putting forth their own views, and going to great lengths to convince another to change their mind.


For many of us here, there could not be a clearer description of what you have taken on in this thread! It is the zeal which you try and get others to agree with your ET quest that keeps this thing going - most wouldn't care a bit if you just said that you don't like listening to the WTC in anything but equal...

Ron Koval
_________________________
Piano/instrument technician
www.ronkoval.com
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my piano videos:
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#1870665 - 03/29/12 09:05 PM Re: I've made up my mind about Bach's WTC and ET [Re: Phil D]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3224
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: Phil D
(laughing out loud at how a simple "I agree with Phil" elaboration turns into another Bill Bremmer Special Essay that inevitably won't be read!)
You don't skimp on your verbiage do you, Bill. I bet you're great fun over a beer or two laugh


No, of course it won't be read or if it is, it will be disregarded. My arguments are "weak". I "misquote" him. Jeff obviously knows I am an advocate of Historical Temperaments. Everybody who knows me, knows that.

It is a tough position to take and I have stood my ground on it fro 23 years, more than half of my career as a piano technician. I was once a skeptic myself but it was not what anyone said about them, it was what I heard that convinced me. I had been told the same thing once by an eminent Jazz artist, "You don't need to explain anything to me, I heard it!"

20 years ago, I knew of just a few people who tuned Historical Temperaments. They were quiet, timid and secretive about it because if they said or wrote much at all, they would get blasted and ridiculed.

It seems that the very idea of an unequal temperament is disturbing to some people. It goes against the grain of everything they always knew and believed in. To continue to write about them publicly rubbed many people the wrong way. There was a musical once that had the line, "There are certain things you just don't do!" To tune a piano in a way that is different from what another person thinks is the one and only right way is one of those things that you just don't do!

So, here we have a person trying to prove the unprovable and indefensible. Practically no one has supported his efforts but plenty of people have said that he is just plain wrong about the premise. I am afraid the no amount of verbiage, no amount of statistics will convince him. There will always be that doubt and the lingering notion that if Bach could have written the WTC music for ET, then he did!

I really do hope that Doel (or whoever it was) will put up some comparative samples. Not for whichever "sounds" better to whomever; that is not the point as Jeff so aptly points out. One may still like the ET version better as the WT version sounds strange to those who prefer ET. To show, however that the music works in either a simple or remote key, whichever case that may be and is adversely affected when transposed to an inappropriate key. We already know that transposition in ET will have no effect one way or the other.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1870680 - 03/29/12 09:36 PM Re: I've made up my mind about Bach's WTC and ET [Re: DoelKees]
Cinnamonbear Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 3904
Loc: Rockford, IL
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
Originally Posted By: Phil D
Sounds like a case of too much BC bud Kees wink

It was the 70ies in Amsterdamn.

Kees


Kees,

Do you mean that you could obtain BC bud in Amsterdam in the 70's? I am curious, because I am also trying to understand the "Triangle Trade" of Bach's time, and am trying to bring this idea back to the "Topic At Hand" for the value of the historical significance. Context, you know...

--Andy
_________________________
I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.

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#1870684 - 03/29/12 09:39 PM Re: I've made up my mind about Bach's WTC and ET [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Cinnamonbear Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 3904
Loc: Rockford, IL
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
[...] Now, I think it was Doel that had been able to post synthesized recordings of various pieces in various temperaments in the past. One of my favorite memories was the posting of Debussy's "Pagodes" in 1/3 Comma Meantone. That really brought out that Gamelon orchestra effect which I assume was the composer's intent. [...]


Can someone please provide a link?
_________________________
I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.

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#1870686 - 03/29/12 09:43 PM Re: I've made up my mind about Bach's WTC and ET [Re: Cinnamonbear]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1723
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: Cinnamonbear
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
Originally Posted By: Phil D
Sounds like a case of too much BC bud Kees wink

It was the 70ies in Amsterdamn.

Kees


Kees,

Do you mean that you could obtain BC bud in Amsterdam in the 70's? I am curious, because I am also trying to understand the "Triangle Trade" of Bach's time, and am trying to bring this idea back to the "Topic At Hand" for the value of the historical significance. Context, you know...

--Andy

It was Phil who brought up the BC bud, not me. In Amsterdamned there was mainly Lebanese and Nepalese hasj available.

Coffee was Bach's drug of choice as it is for me.

Kees

Kees

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#1870688 - 03/29/12 09:49 PM Re: I've made up my mind about Bach's WTC and ET [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Cinnamonbear Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 3904
Loc: Rockford, IL
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
[...] I was truly amazed at what the temperament did for the sound of the piano! So was a local reviewer who commented about it. The Vallotti, much like the other WT mentioned here, has six keys with slower than ET Major thirds and six with faster. The piece is in E-flat. The pure 5ths in E-flat and B-flat and slower than ET M3's gave the piano this razor sharp, in tune sound.

The slow movement, however was written in the unlikely key of B Major. It has broken chords like those of the Moonlight Sonata and a single note melody that "soars" with its wide intervals. The writing is careful to avoid any dissonance.[...]


Emphasis added. This is critically important. Jeff, if you consider only two paragraphs of Bill's post, consider these.
_________________________
I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.

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#1870698 - 03/29/12 09:55 PM Re: I've made up my mind about Bach's WTC and ET [Re: UnrightTooner]
Cinnamonbear Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 3904
Loc: Rockford, IL
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
OK, here is how I plan to do the analysis:

The idea is to see if WTC1 favors choosing lower tonic M3, M10 or M17 in the final chord when the key is more remote than when the key is closer. The idea being that this would result in a slower beating and a more harmonious sound if WT was the intent.

Using Lindley’s temperament, there are 6 keys with the M3 wider than ET and six narrower than ET. So the two groups that will be compared are: Bb, F, C, G & A for the close keys and E, B, F#, C#, Ab and Eb for the remote keys.

The position of the tonic M3s, M10s or M17s can be assigned a note number value (1-88) for the root note of the interval. If there is more than one interval, the higher interval will be used. (An M3, M10 and M17 have the same beat speed when the lower note is the same, but not when the upper note is the same.)

Since the minor pieces end in major chords, all 48 pieces will be included.

The resulting 24 note number values for each group will be averaged and compared. A difference of 1 or less would not be significant because even with a correlation as close as possible between the groups, one group will always have a value of 1 greater than the other depending on where the octave is divided.

But I do not know what would be significant. Perhaps this is a fool’s errand. I will just take it as a “see what there is to see” endeavor.

Comments?


I am all for it, Jeff. Go for it! There is much to be discovered in your effort! But as you do, please address Phil's questions. They are important, and will strengthen your study. Also, consider your edition. Not all minor pieces end in major chords, depending on which edition you consult...
_________________________
I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.

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#1870701 - 03/29/12 09:58 PM Re: I've made up my mind about Bach's WTC and ET [Re: DoelKees]
Cinnamonbear Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 3904
Loc: Rockford, IL
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
Originally Posted By: Cinnamonbear
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
Originally Posted By: Phil D
Sounds like a case of too much BC bud Kees wink

It was the 70ies in Amsterdamn.

Kees


Kees,

Do you mean that you could obtain BC bud in Amsterdam in the 70's? I am curious, because I am also trying to understand the "Triangle Trade" of Bach's time, and am trying to bring this idea back to the "Topic At Hand" for the value of the historical significance. Context, you know...

--Andy

It was Phil who brought up the BC bud, not me. In Amsterdamned there was mainly Lebanese and Nepalese hasj available.

Coffee was Bach's drug of choice as it is for me.

Kees

Kees



Yes. Yes. Is see That That is so. Is that why Gould played so much Bach so fast?
_________________________
I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.

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