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#1855732 - 03/03/12 08:14 PM Re: Do you attend conventions? [Re: newgeneration]
AZNpiano Online   sleepy
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/07
Posts: 5423
Loc: Orange County, CA
I would be interested if the piano comes with adjustable pedals, a lever/bar for the wrists, a built-in metronome, a computer screen for scrolling music, adjustable legs for the tall/short folks, a computerized tuning system that makes the piano stay in tune forever, an adjustable bench that goes high/low enough for people 3 feet to 7 feet tall, and a practice pedal in addition to a sostenuto pedal.
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#1855736 - 03/03/12 08:17 PM Re: Do you attend conventions? [Re: newgeneration]
pianoeagle Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 218
Loc: Texas
I drive the piano purchasing decisions for 90% of my students, and most have either Yamaha T-118s or U1s. I pick pianos based on quality, trusted brand, and resale value, in order to provide the maximum value. Newer brands - especially ones out of the ordinary - may pose issues, especially with resale. I would not be comfortable with my student spending $10,000 on a piano, and not having a local dealer to support any potential maintenance issues (there is no Lomence dealer in Texas).

I would consider recommending a brand like Lomence if it was an overall modern brand - not just in looks, but also incorporating technologies like those in Yamaha's Disklavier line.
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Children's piano instructor
Member NGPT, MTNA/TMTA/PMTA, NFMC/SJFMC

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#1855790 - 03/03/12 09:58 PM Re: Do you attend conventions? [Re: John v.d.Brook]
Peter K. Mose Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/06/12
Posts: 1318
Loc: Toronto, Ontario
Originally Posted By: John v.d.Brook
Peter, that wasn't my point. Just to be clear, the piano makers/sellers have brought this situation on us by selling non-pianos as pianos AND by telling parents that the student's first piano doesn't need to be quality. In fact, the better the instrument at the start, the more likely the student is to enjoy their studies.


Yes, I misunderstood. John is absolutely correct, that the better the piano, the more successful the piano study experience.

By the yardstick of the $99 Costco keyboard, however, a Lomence is no doubt a worthy upright. Its unusual colors and the goofiness of its cabinet might carry a student through a month of lessons, but hardly years. In short this is a pricy gimmick piano, imo. I can't imagine who the target market might be: well, probably affluent Chinese in China.

It is far too expensive to fly in N. America.

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#1855813 - 03/03/12 10:23 PM Re: Do you attend conventions? [Re: John v.d.Brook]
newgeneration Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/04/09
Posts: 428
Loc: Richmond Hill, Ontario
Originally Posted By: keystring
The priorities of quality, maintenance, durability are still there. And these are the points that you are not mentioning at all.


I don't want this thread to go anywhere near trying to be an advertisement for the brand so I won't mention anything more than what I already offered:

Originally Posted By: newgeneration

As for quality, some of the 'piano greats' of the PTG (Pianos Technician Guild) sat down at NAMM 2012 to give them a try, and they were given stamps of approval in every case as capable, decent instruments.


I can't disclose who some of these were because in more than one instance, they are design engineers of other brands (!)

At the route of it all, I am trying to understand why 100% of adults would all love to be able to play the piano, yet interest is diminishing to the extent that piano makers are closing their factories, and piano showrooms are going out of business.

It seems like some are developing the impression that I am only about promoting, even forcing these modern looking pianos into the market.
I am trying to decide if a market exists here.

Please note that at the other end of the spectrum, my corporation represents Steingraeber & Sohne for the Canadian market. We deal with one of the world's best, most prestigious, elite European pianos and many of the finest pianists that travel the globe. It is indeed an odd extreme of a spectrum - Steingraeber - tradition at its finest, and Lomence - modern like no other.
I personally see it as Lomence attempting to re-capture interest back to what it used to be, where a piano complimented and suited the average home whether it is used regularly or not - and Steingraeber being the matured pinnacle of defined achievement and appreciation for quality and rare craftsmanship.

We are all on the same team.

Originally Posted By: John v.d.Brook
In fact, the better the instrument at the start, the more likely the student is to enjoy their studies.


Absolutely agree.
_________________________
John
J.D. Grandt Piano Supply Company
Steingraeber & Söhne (Canada) www.facebook.com/SteingraeberCanada
Lomence Modern Crystal Piano (North America) www.facebook.com/LomencePianos
Piano Bass String Manufacturing Specialist (Worldwide) www.jdgrandt.com

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#1855819 - 03/03/12 10:27 PM Re: Do you attend conventions? [Re: newgeneration]
newgeneration Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/04/09
Posts: 428
Loc: Richmond Hill, Ontario
Peter, you are in Toronto, we are in Richmond Hill.
Cosmo Music is a retailer and you can see these pianos in person for yourself. Actually, I also have one downtown at an interior designers showroom on King St E.
If interested, swing on over and give it a try. smile
_________________________
John
J.D. Grandt Piano Supply Company
Steingraeber & Söhne (Canada) www.facebook.com/SteingraeberCanada
Lomence Modern Crystal Piano (North America) www.facebook.com/LomencePianos
Piano Bass String Manufacturing Specialist (Worldwide) www.jdgrandt.com

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#1855826 - 03/03/12 10:33 PM Re: Do you attend conventions? [Re: Peter K. Mose]
newgeneration Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/04/09
Posts: 428
Loc: Richmond Hill, Ontario
Originally Posted By: Peter K. Mose
In short this is a pricy gimmick piano, imo. I can't imagine who the target market might be: well, probably affluent Chinese in China.

It is far too expensive to fly in N. America.


As for the target market - this is precisely what is being evaluated. I can tell you the first to land in North America was sold to a semi-retired couple living in in a renovated, lakeside home. They purchased the white 123 and requested the PianoDisc player system be installed.
The next went to a public school whose principal allowed the students to choose the colour. It is the 'students' piano, not just some school piano now.
The next was a teenage girl who was taking lessons but also for pure enjoyment dabbling with Alicia Keys and other pop star musician's music.
And so on....
It appears the market might be significant, but we are interested in doing more research and so all your feedback is welcome and appreciated.

Peter I suppose you have traveled to China in order to suggest the comment you offered.
_________________________
John
J.D. Grandt Piano Supply Company
Steingraeber & Söhne (Canada) www.facebook.com/SteingraeberCanada
Lomence Modern Crystal Piano (North America) www.facebook.com/LomencePianos
Piano Bass String Manufacturing Specialist (Worldwide) www.jdgrandt.com

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#1855938 - 03/04/12 02:49 AM Re: Do you attend conventions? [Re: newgeneration]
Gary D. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4750
Loc: South Florida
Originally Posted By: newgeneration

I welcome all thoughts and comments. Please go easy smile

Fair enough.
Quote:

Parents come in all the time and say "We're looking for a piano for little Johnny, but we don't want to spend much money because we don't know if he will like it or not".

I am in South Florida, right in the middle of a place that has been severely hit by the economic meltdown. It is rare that I get beginners who came from musically sophisticated families. Usually the kids who start with me have very little knowledge of music of any kind. Their parents have some vague idea that playing a musical instrument could be a good thing, and usually they pick up one of those 61 key DPs that most people here swear about.

My philosophy is very different from other teachers who actively post here. In about four decades of teaching I have seen countless kids who came from families with a lot of money, "all the advantages", who had no more than average ability and less than average interest in music. There are exceptions, of course. But most of the students who have been my favorites have either come from poor families or have come from families with nearly zero knowledge of music or pianos, and about anything I teach.

I never turn anyone away who comes to me with a good attitude and what looks to be interest in music. I educate both young students AND their parents on the fly. When a kid knows nothing, a cheap digital does not seem to be a problem. Would I prefer every student to start out with an excellent instrument?

Of course.

And if a family were looking at instrument A and instrument B, same price, and instrument B had a "cool" look, I certainly would have no objections. Why would I?

However, BECAUSE most of my kids start on "starter" instruments, my thrust is to develop skills so fast that it becomes evident to the parents that their cheap Casio (or Yamaha) does not have enough keys and is limiting in a thousand ways. I work with the families.

A typical example:

A little more than a year ago I started working with a young student who was playing on a Casio, no touch-sensitivity, no sustain pedal. You get the idea. But he was fascinated with the whole idea of keyboards from day one (meaning keyboards of ALL kinds), and I was able to advance him so fast that within about six months it was obvious to his family that he had talent, and we were able to find an instrument that allowed him to grow. It won't be the last one. If he continues to explode in ability as he is now doing, he's going to be dreaming of something that will have that powerful and subtle sound all talented, developing musicians want. And here, again, my students must be atypical, because all of them would kill for a grand and find uprights a huge step down. As a kid, the moment I played on a great grand, that was the only thing I dreamed about having, of playing on. Basic black, as big as possible, because those were the instruments that sounded the best to me.

My students don't seem to care about color or any gimmicks UNLESS those gimmicks come as extras on instruments they love, for the sound, but that may be because mostly they don't have a chance at such an instrument until they already play very well.

You son is cute, and I enjoyed watching him play, but the idea of having parents who would buy such an instrument to START on would be beyond belief for most of my students. For them it would be another world, a privileged world, a world they only see "up close" on TV.

I could tell you story after story of students who started with instruments that were really quite awful, but their drive to play, the pure love of music kept them going until their families were able to get them a good instrument.

There are also students who start out with decent instruments who are motivated and above average in talent, but what gets ignored again and again here, what is dismissed as a non-factor, is the fact that these cheap digital instruments give poorer students a chance to start, students who would never have had a chance to discover all this a couple decades ago.

Two decades ago for such kids, playing the piano, discovering "classical" music, was about as practical and possible as joining a golf club or a tennis club.

This means that parents who would never have considered buying a piano, just on the CHANCE that a son or daughter might have the talent and desire to take advantage of it, will often do it later, when a child has demonstrated real interest after STARTING on something that richer "folks" would sneer at.

And by the way, there is a HECK of a lot of sneering done in this forum.

There are two outcomes from today's reality, very opposite:

1) A huge percentage of people who would have felt forced to buy a "real piano" now feel free to buy a DP. This is horrible for your business if this is as far as they go.

BUT:

2) If there were more teachers out there truly motivating young players and effectively teaching them so that they gain real skills, there would be a counter-balancing tendency for familes to make the leap, coming into stores selling quality acoustics, and that would be GOOD for your business. I love DPs. Everytime I say this, I am ready to duck, since to say such a thing in a "tradionally classical" world is a good way to get stoned. But the flip side of this is that if you play really well, no DP on the market comes close to the indescribable sound of a fantastic grand.

In my opinion the decline in piano sales is two-fold. DPs cut into your market hugely, and that is simply a fact. However, the REAL problem is that incompetent piano teachers are so great in number that the vast majority of potential purchasers of quality instruments never get good enough to realize WHY they are quality instruments, no matter what the color or how cool the instruments look.

It is likely that not one teacher who posts in this forum will agree with much of anything I said. But that is my experience, and I do NOT get most of my students from "privileged familes". So I guess I just have a different view of teaching and why young students eventually become fine musicians - or don't.


Edited by Gary D. (03/04/12 03:00 AM)
_________________________
Piano Teacher

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#1855989 - 03/04/12 08:24 AM Re: Do you attend conventions? [Re: newgeneration]
Ann in Kentucky Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 2647
Loc: Kentucky
Originally Posted By: newgeneration


What other industries are doing well that still market a product that has not changed since the early 1900's and that still utilizes the same marketing approach?


Do you really believe the "product" has not changed since early 1900's? Have you ever heard a Steinway dealer tell about improvements in design or read about Kawaii's technology to improve action? And hear about the latest technology Roland is using in their DP's?

Do you have any clue as to why teachers steer parents clear of buying spinets?

Piano's and DP's have changed and some are better built than ever. And others are following an old recipe, and they limit use of technological improvements to those that improve "price point".

In my experience "the new wears off" after a short time. It's the quality of sound that will continue to inspire a student over time.

For example, when you get a bargain on a purchase, there is the initial thrill of getting the low price. That wears off a short time later, and then you only get gratification if it was a good quality purchase.

I think crystal pianos would make a fun Christmas tree ornament or an ornament to sit on the real piano.

Do you really believe marketing hasn't changed? Our Steinway dealer has expanded to include a recital room. They focus on networking with teachers and their students. I'd say that for SOME dealers, marketing has changed a great deal.


Edited by Ann in Kentucky (03/04/12 08:27 AM)
_________________________
piano teacher

"She played upon her music box
a fancy air by chance,
And straightaway all her polka dots
began a lively dance."
-- Peter Newell

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#1855993 - 03/04/12 08:42 AM Re: Do you attend conventions? [Re: newgeneration]
newgeneration Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/04/09
Posts: 428
Loc: Richmond Hill, Ontario
Gary thanks for that thoughtful post.
I don't see DP's as the real cause for the downturn in piano sales, because as you mention (and I agree), the price point of the DP is so much less than an acoustic piano.
In that vein it is a wonderful situation that if DP's didn't exist, maybe some children would simply never get the chance of taking up lessons because it is simply too expensive to get involved with buying an acoustic piano.
My only caution for clients is that like you point out, these keyboards have limitations (and gizmo distractions) and ultimately are like buying a computer - if a person buys a half decent DP, their money is gone and as a financial investment (just in case Suzy isn't seriously interested) they can't sell it for anything close to what they paid for it. A new model with new electronics has come out 6 months later and the electric DP they bought is already outdated.

I like the quote in your signature. I wonder if it applies to me in my situation with Lomence. smile
_________________________
John
J.D. Grandt Piano Supply Company
Steingraeber & Söhne (Canada) www.facebook.com/SteingraeberCanada
Lomence Modern Crystal Piano (North America) www.facebook.com/LomencePianos
Piano Bass String Manufacturing Specialist (Worldwide) www.jdgrandt.com

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#1856007 - 03/04/12 09:07 AM Re: Do you attend conventions? [Re: Ann in Kentucky]
newgeneration Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/04/09
Posts: 428
Loc: Richmond Hill, Ontario
Originally Posted By: Ann in Kentucky


Do you really believe the "product" has not changed since early 1900's? Have you ever heard a Steinway dealer tell about improvements in design or read about Kawaii's technology to improve action? And hear about the latest technology Roland is using in their DP's?

Do you have any clue as to why teachers steer parents clear of buying spinets?


Do you really believe marketing hasn't changed? Our Steinway dealer has expanded to include a recital room. They focus on networking with teachers and their students. I'd say that for SOME dealers, marketing has changed a great deal.


Yes, pianos have barely evolved at all! The carbon composite parts in Kawai's does not change much for the consumer. If it was a bit of superior evolution/change, the very best piano manufacturer's would have switched to it. Why are Tier 1 pianos still primarily using wooden parts and outperform the rest?

Think of a car for example, performance has improved, handling, safety, ergonomics - everything. You cannot take parts today and insert them into an automobile from decades ago (or vice versa). With a piano, generally speaking you can.
The so called 'changes' that we see in pianos has NOT come from the consumers, but from the engineers in their back rooms trying to offer something new to market in a dying industry.
Let me provide a truly innovative evolution that Steingraeber has available: carbon fiber soundboards. A soundboard that doesn't 'age' and is much more stable from climate to climate because it doesn't react with humidity differences. This changes the playing field. The engineering of the pianos construction has to be altered and had to be re-designed so it is not like a traditional piano has always been.
Wooden parts vs plastic parts, and all the arguing that goes on within the industry about it - who cares? The consumers don't - otherwise the market would demand it for all brands.
This is what I meant.

And Steinway, don't get me started. A company that signs up artists and then tries to manipulate them and disavow them should they perform on anything but Steinway, sheesh, in any other industry today do you know what type of critisism that would receive... com'on.
Steinway is the king of marketing. Think about it, if you ask the general public what is the best piano in the world, the majority response is Steinway. You ask the same question to a piano technician or rebuilder, (someone inside the industry without anything to gain from their response) and you would hear some other brands in likely much greater percentage.

Their marketing strategy also has not changed. ie: Find a young person who is a piano prodigy, woo them early and lock them in as an artist. Then say to concert halls, "well if you do not have a Steinway at your hall, no Steinway artists will be able to perform at your venue."

Most noteworthy piano dealers these days have a miniature performing hall (or have access to one), network with teachers (to drive traffic to their stores), but very few (and there are some amazing ones) do anything positive for actually fostering a thriving piano industry 10-20-30 years from now.
_________________________
John
J.D. Grandt Piano Supply Company
Steingraeber & Söhne (Canada) www.facebook.com/SteingraeberCanada
Lomence Modern Crystal Piano (North America) www.facebook.com/LomencePianos
Piano Bass String Manufacturing Specialist (Worldwide) www.jdgrandt.com

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#1856010 - 03/04/12 09:24 AM Re: Do you attend conventions? [Re: newgeneration]
keystring Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11590
Loc: Canada
In regards to DP's, I was forced into getting one partly because of price, partly because with thin walls and floors and ceilings bordering on 4 neighbours, "silent practice" some of the time was the only guarantee of being able to practice at all. I got an instrument that comes as close as possible to allowing me to develop the technique which will transfer over to a good acoustic at some point.

The arrangement that I have been given is that I will be able to trade this DP in, possibly at full value, toward an acoustic piano. I would pay on top of it to get an instrument that is superior - again my priorities are function. I am mentioning it because this goes into the "DP encroachment factor". Maybe there is something useful in that.

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#1856017 - 03/04/12 09:43 AM Re: Do you attend conventions? [Re: newgeneration]
Ann in Kentucky Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 2647
Loc: Kentucky
What we see is that high quality piano builders focus on technology that will improve sound. It sounds like newgeneration is bent on convincing the uneducated buyer that pianos are all the same quality and you might as well go for bling. Minimizing advancements that affect sound and stability and durability of pianos.

The bling set focus on looks of a piano. The builders who get teachers respect focus on sound.

newgeneration's response was well rehearsed, but he ignored the content and tried to minimize my points. I'm still unconvinced.

We piano teachers are interested in sound. Your piano cases do not impress us. Perhaps your "product" is what some call a PSO. Piano shaped object. When you only focus on the shape/look of your piano, I'm guessing that your disguising a thin, tinny sound that will not hold a candle to a rich resonant sound of a better instrument. It does not take an advanced pianist to hear the difference. Shoppers just need to listen. Play some arpeggios and listen to what you hear.
_________________________
piano teacher

"She played upon her music box
a fancy air by chance,
And straightaway all her polka dots
began a lively dance."
-- Peter Newell

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#1856035 - 03/04/12 10:45 AM Re: Do you attend conventions? [Re: newgeneration]
John v.d.Brook Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/18/06
Posts: 7315
Loc: Olympia, Washington, USA
Just a comment on piano improvements the past century. My son is a professional violinist. As far as I can ascertain, there have been no improvements in violin making since Cremona in the 1600s. Strangely, no violinist seems upset with this sad state of affairs.
_________________________
"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann
Full-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.com
Certified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA

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#1856049 - 03/04/12 11:10 AM Re: Do you attend conventions? [Re: newgeneration]
keystring Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11590
Loc: Canada
There were actually some changes, John, but most of them had a reason involving music itself. The music that was written changed, standard pitch was raised, and performances were in larger halls/orchestras requiring greater volume. They were not frivolous reasons, and I think they were probably suggested by musicians, and made for musicians. The changes were not made to attract lay people or their children.
See middle section: Baroque to Modern Form



Edited by keystring (03/04/12 11:26 AM)
Edit Reason: took out non-pertinent waffle

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#1856053 - 03/04/12 11:18 AM Re: Do you attend conventions? [Re: newgeneration]
Ann in Kentucky Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 2647
Loc: Kentucky
That's a good point, John. Takes the debate away from proving advancements and returns it to the real issue which is quality.

All the OP can say about his product is "Polly has a pretty case. Polly has a pretty case. Polly has a pretty case".

The whole sales pitch is based on trying to convince buyers that all pianos are alike other than case. And he will do alright. Someone will believe him.

My parent used to believe that about cars...that they're all the same and it's just bad luck if you get a lemon. In the 70's they had Chryslers that wouldn't start...forever etched in my memory is the sound of igh yigh yigh yigh yigh...and Mom turns the ignition trying to start the car. After many attempts and swearing it would start.

Then it was trouble with Dodge Horizon. As a teenager I tried to convince them to at least buy a Japanese car. Nope. Back out and traded one lemon Dodge Horizon for another Dodge Horizon (which also turned out to be a lemon). By the early 80's they went for Japanese cars and have mostly had a carefree time of it ever since.
_________________________
piano teacher

"She played upon her music box
a fancy air by chance,
And straightaway all her polka dots
began a lively dance."
-- Peter Newell

Top
#1856061 - 03/04/12 11:40 AM Re: Do you attend conventions? [Re: keystring]
John v.d.Brook Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/18/06
Posts: 7315
Loc: Olympia, Washington, USA
Originally Posted By: keystring
There were actually some changes, John, but most of them had a reason involving music itself. The music that was written changed, standard pitch was raised, and performances were in larger halls/orchestras requiring greater volume. They were not frivolous reasons, and I think they were probably suggested by musicians, and made for musicians. The changes were not made to attract lay people or their children.
See middle section: Baroque to Modern Form

KS, not to nit pick, but aren't these all changes to meet changing performance requirements, not "improvements" in the sense of better tone, etc. In the piano world, we went from wooden frames to iron, for the same reason luthiers used heavier bass bars. We went to a wider keyboard compass for the same reason they extended the neck and fingerboard.
_________________________
"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann
Full-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.com
Certified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA

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#1856063 - 03/04/12 11:43 AM Re: Do you attend conventions? [Re: newgeneration]
John v.d.Brook Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/18/06
Posts: 7315
Loc: Olympia, Washington, USA
Oh, and as he lives and performs in Austin, he took his mom's old fiddle, added a pickup of some kind, and amps it for most of the live nightclub performances. It's not a better violin now, but darn sure louder!
_________________________
"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann
Full-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.com
Certified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA

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#1856068 - 03/04/12 11:59 AM Re: Do you attend conventions? [Re: John v.d.Brook]
keystring Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11590
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: John v.d.Brook

KS, not to nit pick, but aren't these all changes to meet changing performance requirements, not "improvements" in the sense of better tone, etc. In the piano world, we went from wooden frames to iron, for the same reason luthiers used heavier bass bars. We went to a wider keyboard compass for the same reason they extended the neck and fingerboard.


I think that we're on the same page, John. Whatever changes were made to the violin were made for solid reasons because of what was happening in music. They were fueled by the requirements of musicians who knew what they were doing, and the luthiers, who also understood music, responded to them. They were not done for the sake of sales to attract lay people who did not know where the needs were.

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#1856089 - 03/04/12 12:52 PM Re: Do you attend conventions? [Re: newgeneration]
Kreisler Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13764
Loc: Iowa City, IA
We seem to be forgetting strings. There have been many, many changes to the making of violin strings, and with the exception of violinists who specialize in baroque performance practice, they all take advantage of modern string technology.

Also, there are changes made in piano construction all the time. They just tend to be minor and invisible. These Lomence pianos have a radical change on the outside, but I'm assuming much of the action, pinblock, and soundboard (in other words, everything that actually matters where the sound and feel are concerned) aren't that new at all.
_________________________
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

www.pianoped.com
www.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed

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#1856100 - 03/04/12 01:08 PM Re: Do you attend conventions? [Re: newgeneration]
Minaku Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/26/07
Posts: 1226
Loc: Atlanta
The pitch for these Lomence pianos seems about the same as those Pearl River butterfly pianos of several years back (and, prior to that, Baldwin custom Artist Grands). I think all you really have to do is look at how well those pianos sold, and who they appealed to, and you'll have a good idea of how the Lomence will do.
_________________________
Pianist and teacher with a 5'8" Baldwin R and Clavi CLP-230 at home.

New website up: http://www.studioplumpiano.com. Also on Twitter @QQitsMina

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#1856144 - 03/04/12 02:53 PM Re: Do you attend conventions? [Re: newgeneration]
newgeneration Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/04/09
Posts: 428
Loc: Richmond Hill, Ontario
I am still very appreciative of everyone's input.

Ann in Kentucky - You are bent on making the assumption that the Lomence piano is not at all a decent instrument. I started this thread not at all trying to sell the piano to you.
I am interested on the discussion regarding specifically the look and I am receiving excellent feedback on it.
But, please don't make any suggestive comments regarding its quality as that is definitely a case for libel. I was not seeking anyone's input on quality for the OBVIOUS reason that these pianos are so new, hardly anyone can go anywhere to try one. (They debuted in the USA this past January for the first time ever).

I am a second generation technician, having done plenty of piano rebuilding myself. I am an instructor to various accomplished technicians across North America at various piano conventions. My company J.D. Grandt is regarded as the best (sorry for the lack of modesty but I am trying to offer some credibility), again, the best source for quality, accuracy and tone regarding the piano bass strings we supply for technicians around the WORLD. We service all of Yamaha Canada's bass string warranty claims as well as Yamaha Corp USA and Bosendorfer USA.
I have a very complete understanding of tone, and the vast dynamics that contribute to creating good tone in a piano.

I refuse to make this an advertisement for Lomence, except to say that if there were any deficiencies in tonal abilities or mechanical performance of the Lomence piano, you can be assured I would be the first to stay away. The fascinating thing is that they do perform at the same level as any Yamaha or piano in this category.

So please, restrain yourself from addressing anything regarding the quality of Lomence, at least until you have touched one or more and had the chance to justly address any of these concerns you might have.

There are hundreds of viewers of this thread. Are there none that think maybe it is ok to bring some fun to the world of acoustic pianos? I will stand beside you, ok in front of you, as the stones continue to be hurled from those that insist the diminishing interest in pianos cannot be because the piano as we know it appears to children like everything they otherwise are scolded for touching (fine dining room, fancy dishes and glassware, valuable household electronics, etc).
Is there any market for a piano that children might be proud of in front of their peers and be the cause for envy? Is this wrong?
_________________________
John
J.D. Grandt Piano Supply Company
Steingraeber & Söhne (Canada) www.facebook.com/SteingraeberCanada
Lomence Modern Crystal Piano (North America) www.facebook.com/LomencePianos
Piano Bass String Manufacturing Specialist (Worldwide) www.jdgrandt.com

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#1856153 - 03/04/12 03:14 PM Re: Do you attend conventions? [Re: Ann in Kentucky]
newgeneration Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/04/09
Posts: 428
Loc: Richmond Hill, Ontario
Originally Posted By: Ann in Kentucky
What we see is that high quality piano builders focus on technology that will improve sound. It sounds like newgeneration is bent on convincing the uneducated buyer that pianos are all the same quality and you might as well go for bling. Minimizing advancements that affect sound and stability and durability of pianos.

The bling set focus on looks of a piano. The builders who get teachers respect focus on sound.


At this point I don't think Ann will believe me, but for the record, the latest 'improvement' by the better piano manufacturer's of today - is actually reverting back to the hammer felt that was used 100 years ago. I acknowledge the piano engineers are seeking to improve sound quality, but very little on the side of innovation that will create 'new' interest for the piano industry is occurring.

Regarding pianos, yes, there is a demand for a stronger bass then a century and more ago, and piano manufacturer's have adjusted to provide for this modern taste. But that is no innovation or evolution.

And again, there is SO MUCH that differentiates a good quality instrument from one that is not. But this thread is not about that.

UNEDUCATED BUYERS, please, please, do your due diligence before purchasing a piano, but speak to piano technician's - they are the ones who work in the trenches, they are the 'pit crew' so to speak who know the mechanics and performance of a piano better than anyone. (A race car driver can do things with their car that amaze people, but they don't know how or why they are able to do it. The pit crew does though). A technician can give you the pros and cons of a piano, what the capabilities are of a piano. A teacher is an excellent resource also but they will only comment on a piano with regards to how competent the technician was that set the piano up. Take for example the very cheapest of cheap pianos (whatever it is) knowing a teacher is coming in to evaluate a piano for their student, a dealer can have this piano prepped to the hilt and it sounds wonderful an hour later when the teacher arrives. Little does anyone know (except the technician) that there is no way it will stay in tune for any length of time, there is no way it will stay regulated for any length of time, and the amount of voicing on the hammers to make it sound half decent has essentially destroyed the hammers in that it sounds great today, but within a few months the brand new hammers will be shot and the piano will sound like a tin box.

Please with all sincerity - teachers forgive me and don't get on my case. You are wonderful and vital and offer MUCH resources for your students and contacts. My last paragraph recognizes your gift of piano teaching and playing. This is different from someone whose gift is not teaching and playing, but repairing and rebuilding - two very different vocations.
_________________________
John
J.D. Grandt Piano Supply Company
Steingraeber & Söhne (Canada) www.facebook.com/SteingraeberCanada
Lomence Modern Crystal Piano (North America) www.facebook.com/LomencePianos
Piano Bass String Manufacturing Specialist (Worldwide) www.jdgrandt.com

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#1856173 - 03/04/12 03:57 PM Re: Do you attend conventions? [Re: Kreisler]
John v.d.Brook Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/18/06
Posts: 7315
Loc: Olympia, Washington, USA
Originally Posted By: Kreisler
We seem to be forgetting strings. There have been many, many changes to the making of violin strings, and with the exception of violinists who specialize in baroque performance practice, they all take advantage of modern string technology.

I almost said something about this, and bows as well, but as violins are normally considered separately from strings and bows, I kept silent about it. Of course, $280 for a set of premium strings on a violin is one thing, it's many thousands of dollars on a piano, so isn't lightly exchanged!
_________________________
"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann
Full-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.com
Certified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA

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#1856207 - 03/04/12 04:58 PM Re: Do you attend conventions? [Re: newgeneration]
John v.d.Brook Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/18/06
Posts: 7315
Loc: Olympia, Washington, USA
Originally Posted By: newgeneration
But, please don't make any suggestive comments regarding its quality as that is definitely a case for libel.

Actually, it's not. We're in the USA, as is the server. We enjoy freedom of speech and the right to express our opinion. Something which I understand has been severely curtailed in Canada. If true, that's regretful. But Ann has a right to her opinion and to express it. FWIW, in the USA, to prove libel, you have to prove intention to inflict harm. There is nothing in Ann's comments which remotely suggests that's her motive, at least, IMO.
_________________________
"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann
Full-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.com
Certified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA

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#1856216 - 03/04/12 05:16 PM Re: Do you attend conventions? [Re: newgeneration]
keystring Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11590
Loc: Canada
If freedom of speech has been curtailed in Canada, then it's news to me. And in my experience, we don't usually go around threatening potential customers. It's sort of bad for business.

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#1856220 - 03/04/12 05:40 PM Re: Do you attend conventions? [Re: keystring]
John v.d.Brook Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/18/06
Posts: 7315
Loc: Olympia, Washington, USA
Haven't you heard about Ann Coulter? While I seldom find common areas of agreement with her, I understand the provincial government is trying to convict her of "insult" or some such nonsense because she spoke out on an university campus against a number of Sharia practices.
_________________________
"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann
Full-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.com
Certified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA

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#1856221 - 03/04/12 05:41 PM Re: Do you attend conventions? [Re: newgeneration]
Ann in Kentucky Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 2647
Loc: Kentucky
Originally Posted By: newgeneration


I refuse to make this an advertisement for Lomence

_________________________
piano teacher

"She played upon her music box
a fancy air by chance,
And straightaway all her polka dots
began a lively dance."
-- Peter Newell

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#1856222 - 03/04/12 05:47 PM Re: Do you attend conventions? [Re: John v.d.Brook]
newgeneration Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/04/09
Posts: 428
Loc: Richmond Hill, Ontario
Originally Posted By: John v.d.Brook
We're in the USA, as is the server. We enjoy freedom of speech and the right to express our opinion..... But XXX has a right to her opinion and to express it.


Actually no, there is something called 'defamation per se' strictly within American law.

...just saying, no comments should be made regarding quality if you've never personally been in contact with it, or heard any feedback with regards to it.
If your definition of American Freedom of Speech and the right to express your opinion disagrees, then we will have to agree to disagree. I will be pleased to be called Canadian, travel the world with my Canadian flag, and you can do the same as an American with your American flag proudly displayed.
_________________________
John
J.D. Grandt Piano Supply Company
Steingraeber & Söhne (Canada) www.facebook.com/SteingraeberCanada
Lomence Modern Crystal Piano (North America) www.facebook.com/LomencePianos
Piano Bass String Manufacturing Specialist (Worldwide) www.jdgrandt.com

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#1856223 - 03/04/12 05:47 PM Re: Do you attend conventions? [Re: newgeneration]
Ann in Kentucky Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 2647
Loc: Kentucky
Originally Posted By: newgeneration
Are there none that think maybe it is ok to bring some fun to the world of acoustic pianos? ... as the stones continue to be hurled


We're back to the case yet again.

Aww, now he's Dorothy with those trees throwing rotten apples at him.
_________________________
piano teacher

"She played upon her music box
a fancy air by chance,
And straightaway all her polka dots
began a lively dance."
-- Peter Newell

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#1856224 - 03/04/12 05:48 PM Re: Do you attend conventions? [Re: newgeneration]
newgeneration Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/04/09
Posts: 428
Loc: Richmond Hill, Ontario
Ahh yes, the emoticons have begun.
smile
_________________________
John
J.D. Grandt Piano Supply Company
Steingraeber & Söhne (Canada) www.facebook.com/SteingraeberCanada
Lomence Modern Crystal Piano (North America) www.facebook.com/LomencePianos
Piano Bass String Manufacturing Specialist (Worldwide) www.jdgrandt.com

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