I know, this may seem like in inflammatory subject, but its one that has been on my mind lately.

I'm curious to know how the non PTG technicians perceive the guild. My goal is not to defend PTG but to just get a sense of others thoughts and feelings.

I encourage participants to be honest yet reasonably diplomatic and respectful with their comments.

Thanks for posting!

After many years of experience, my perception is that the PTG is an organization of people who choose to get together to support each other working on pianos. It does not indicate to me that they are necessarily any better than others who choose not to join a group.

In my network technology life, there were users groups that I feel were for the same purpose. These people were/are not necessarily the best or worst in the industry.

I rely on recommendations and personal experience for my perceptions.

Having said that, if I were in a brand new geographic area, the PTG would be a good place to start looking for qualified people until I gathered some independent experience.

You asked for personal perceptions, this is mine.

I let my membership lapse because I wasn't able to attend chapter meetings. The dues then amounted to a very expensive magazine subscription.

I was considering rejoining until I was told that I would have to redo the RPT exam because the home office lost all the records.

I was disappointed and saddened to hear this because I was part of one of the first groups (a test group) to take what was at the time 'the new test'. And to think that this was just one of the many recorded projects that were lost is disheartening.

This was many years ago. So I guess it still depends on what is happening at the Chapter level.

I believe the PTG is a good source of information. I also believe that the PTG provides an avenue for people who benefit from a group setting. The shared fellowship involved, along with the willingness of many of the members to share and help the new members learn more is significant. Many people in all walks of life benefit greatly from this kind of setting to learn in. The PTG is one of those groups for this trade.

I am the type of person who does not do well in this type of setting. I enjoyed my university and fine arts school studies. I have never had a problem with the PTG or the existence of the PTG or its mandate.

The problem as I see it is not the PTG or its function, it is the “us and them” divisiveness often encountered by non-members from members. But I am sure this is problematic with any group versus non-group affiliation.

Thanks for the responses so far! This is really interesting.

I'm not someone who likes meetings. Since I live in a rural area and that means LONG drives to those meetings that I don't like, I reluctantly shed my membership a year ago after some 40 years as a RPT (or equivalent) member.

I think it's a great org. but as I got older, I found I liked my alone time more and more.

I am pro-PTG, but not an associate member because paying off student loans and buying tech tools are more urgent (the high cost of PTG can be a huge burden for young people). I do plan to join hopefully later this year, though. That said, I do regularly hear stories from veterans about the various interpolitical issues that come up, which is kind of a turn off, but I guess you will have that in any organization.

I support PTG through buying the Journal subscription yearly, and attending occasional meetings...many great friends in the local chapter...

I don't formally join because I won't attend regular meetings due to schedule and travel (being honest, not making a judgement as to value here :-)

I sincerely wish PTG would offer a "CE" membership status...continuing education membership only. I'm just not interested in RPT status, but the learning and continuing education IS something I love about PTG. I think the editorial style of the Journal is better now, but in the past it spoke "down" to Associate members and that rubs the wrong way when I know so many very heavy techs who are associates! (Chuck Behm, Alex Kaptyn both come to mind...amazing techs.)

Anyway, thanks for asking and listening. My local chapter knows that if locally or nationally I am able to join as a member without the pressure to take RPT exams I'd be happy to do so. (by pressure I mean this: the PTG website wont list Associate members, and directs new inquiries to RPT's only...so unless somebody wants to test in, we'd be supporting an organization that advertises AGAINST non RPTs!...which is just a non-starter for me)

Just my humble 2cents worth...nothing more.

Rick

I agree that the RPT status sets up a hierarchy. You could be in the business for 20 years or more but if you join the PTG you'd still have to prove yourself. I think the marketplace should be the place to decide if someone is capable or not. Like Rick, I'm just not interested in the RPT thing. And, what's really a shame, is that you lose your RPT status if you don't keep up on your dues. That's like earning a degree at a college or university but only being able to keep it if you pay dues every year.

I believe that change within the PTG is too slow. The PTG can not respond with any kind of speed to changing market conditions, and changing attitudes of it's members.

The impediment to quick response and change is the council system.

I would suggest removing the annual council and replacing it with decisions from the board. I'd like to see the board comprised of all RVP's, all officers, legal counsel, financial counsel, a member or two from the home office staff, a couple of RPT's and a couple of Associates from the ranks. It takes 400 RPT's at council 1-2 days to accomplish what a board could decide in 1 hour. If you have ever been to council, you know what I mean.

Board meetings could be skyped or web cast to the ranks (except for sensitive personnel matters). A summary of decisions could be easily emailed to members.

Now that we have a governing body that can make decisions quickly, without waiting to some annual meeting, the rank and file can submit suggestions to the board for discussion, decisions, and implementation.

If it is the desire of the board to change bylaws, Associate and RPT relationships, tuning tests, and any other important matters, it's a relatively simple thing to do. It would not require an act of god by the council.

I would imagine one of the reasons for the council set up was to slow down change in the PTG on purpose. However, the world is changing faster than the council can react.

It's time to give the board the power to lead the PTG in a positive direction for the future without being constrained by some bylaw it can't easily change.

Promote the acoustic piano - Promoting the piano is far more important for the future than promoting RPT over Associates.

By the way, I really like the newsletter via email. That is a great step forward!

I was an RPT and in CTE (certified tuning examiner) training, and president of our chapter (Erie 165). In 1996 I let my dues lapse while going through some life changes, so lost the RPT status. Like Dave, I decided I wasn't going to go through all the testing again. I feel it's pointless when I already passed them once.

Just like Dave B and others said, I let my membership lapse in the late 80's because I could not attend chapter meetings because of another ongoinging committment on meeting nights, and the cost of membership at the time. If I remember correctly we were called craftsman, not RPT then. When did the designation change from craftsman to RTP? I also was interested in rejoining some years ago, but I really did not want to go through the retesting procedure. At one time I think PTG had a process where one could rejoin if sponsored by a current member. Am I just dreamining this??

Also, I do believe that PTG is a excellent organization, committed to educating beginning techs and tuners.

Actually, we used to be called RTT's (registered tuner-technician) and then they changed it to RPT. You can rejoin if sponsored but you still have to take the tests.

Yup. But before that we were Craftsman Members.

Membership requirements have basically remained the same but the application process is different. You join through Home Office and your local chapter is notified. Please see membership FAQ's and application online at www.ptg.org The Home Office staff is available to answer questions about membership. (913)432-9975

The list of Registered Piano Technicians on the website IS the register. When you pass your exams, the register, the knowledge that you can pass the minimum standard in our biz, advertising rights to use the RPT logo, local and regional leadership opportunities, and full voting rights at the National level are the big deal.
All the other benefits of being a member are for Associates as well as RPT's: meetings, Journal, seminars and conventions, networking with other members, participation in commercial partner benefits like insurance and credit card.

It should be noted that all are welcome to attend PTG seminars and conventions. After attending one or two, a non-member technician might understand the value of PTG more fully. The combination of professional development and fellowship/networking with like-minded individuals is priceless.

As a tuner that relies on an ETD to tune, I feel that I am looked down upon because I could probably not set a temperament by ear if I had to. I do use my ears to tune unisons, but feel that Tunelab does a MUCH better job calculating what tuning curve is needed for a specific piano that what I would do. I feel it's an antiquated notion to require people wanting to become an RPT to have to pass a tuning exam by ear. I am not against testing, I had to pass the Praxis test to be a registered teacher in the state of Missouri. I would be more likely to join if the Guild would let me use my ETD to take the exam.

Dear Ryan(s),

I was trying to leave Ryan's thread alone...and let the non-members answer his question...but I would like to keep things accurate.

The Tuning Exam only requires tuning single strings from C3 to B4 by ear. The midrange of the piano is completely muted, and you are only dealing with the single strings and have 45 minutes to get those 24 wires fairly close to in-tune. It doesn't even have to be perfect, just pretty good.

You certainly can use your machine for the next section of the test, for the bass, treble, and high treble sections.

Then the machine is parked, and you tune the unisons from C3 to B4 by ear.

Why? It's not really to much to ask that you show that you know where a machine tuning should be trying to go, is it? The test simply makes sure that you understand what unisons, 4ths, 5ths, and 3rds should sound like...and how to put them together.

I agree and support Jurgen's point that the personal development and the networking with others in the craft is ...literally... priceless.

Rolling 200 miles,
for each meeting,
I am,
a PTG member,

wcctuner is actually correct. Back in the day, the two levels were "Craftsman" and "Apprentice." I was an Apprentice member in 1976 when I apprenticed in a rebuilding shop.

Hi Ryan, if you focused on temperament setting, with perhaps someone to guide you, you could learn to do set a reasonable temperament in a short time. ETD's can and do break down, so an aural temperament is a good thing to have in your tool kit. That is why it's on the tuning test.

I'm sorry, with all due respect, I just don't see the point of learning to set a temperament by ear. Bob, look at it in this context ...Yes, my truck does break down from time to time, but I don't resort to riding a horse for the fear that my truck might not get me where I'm going. The above process that TunerJeff describes seems way too complicated and would be less stable than tuning unisons as you go and applying equal tension across the piano. What's most important is how the piano ends up sounding in the end and if the customer is happy. Using Tunelab and the EBVT3 layered on top of the stretch that Tunelab calculates leave a GREAT sounding piano. Many of my new customers tell me that their piano has NEVER sounded that good. I have more business that I can keep up with. If you would like to read some of the testimonials of my customers, take a look at my website.

Ryan, I can see your point of view, and I often use Tunelab myself to do the first pass on temperaments and pitch raises. I am not against allowing people to test by tuning the whole piano the way they normally tune, aural or ETD, but I believe there may be standardization issues by testing that way. I can tell you that sometimes an ETD does not calculate a good tuning - and when that happens, it's nice to pick that up before finishing the whole piano, and realizing too late there is an error. If I'm fine tuning by ETD (which I rarely do), I like to check aurally how things are tuning up.

Having said that, there are probably a bunch of tuners who share your opinion and I respect that. In fact, I've made the suggestion on these forums to have two types of RPT, and Aural RPT who tested by ear only, and an RPT who tested by ETD only. But that is not without issues of it's own.

When I learned to tune, ETD's were not very common, so we all learned aurally. I had to re-learn techniques when I got my first ETD only five years ago. Like the ability to tune an aural temperament, my ETD is another tool at my disposal.

Even if you were able to pass the tuning tests via ETD only, I'll bet at some point down the road, curiosity and/or boredom would cause you to explore tuning by ear.

You could try this option:

1. Have someone spend an hour or two with you on temperament setting
2. For the next week, set a quick temperament by ear, then correct it with Tune lab
3. Re-visit temperament setting with your mentor
4. Do the same as # 2
5. Repeat # 1 and # 2 till you have confidence in your temperament, then take the tuning test.

BTW, Ryan, nice website!

Bob, thanks for the nice response. Thank you too for not being condescending like others have been on here to me before. It just seems like a lot of extra work that I really don't have time to do. In just the short time that I posted the last post, I went on Facebook to see what was going on and picked up two more tunings! WOW! When my mentor told me that there were enough neglected pianos here in the Mineral Area to keep four tuners busy full-time, I thought he was kidding...I'm seeing now that he really wasn't. Maybe someday when I get caught up I will attempt to tune a temperament aurally.

Thanks again.

Ryan, I'm glad to hear of another TuneLab user! It's a very good program and reasonably priced. I've been using it now for about 10 years I think. I've been tuning now going on 17 years and I've never had a break down of my ETD. (I had a Yamaha PT100 before I got TuneLab.) Maybe it's a lifestyle thing. I'm just always keeping an eye on my devices, making sure they're charged up and ready to go. I've got a backup device too. My ETD is also my mp3 player so I have it plugged in in my car when I'm not using it.

When it comes to the temperament thing it's a losing battle. You have lots of happy customers and to me that's the bottom line. In the PTG this would be heresy but in my mind it's just pianos we're talking about. We're not doing brain surgery. At least that's the world I live in. I'll leave the "high powered" tunings to someone else, although I do tune for a couple of recording studios and have had no complaints.

Great web site Ryan! Take a look at mine when you get a chance.

That's quite correct. I've been MORE than welcomed and Jane and I warmly received at multiple PTG events...convention to meetings, its a great group of people and I can't say enough about PTG's mission and excellence.

FWIW

Rick

I don't know why I became an associate of PTG. May be for the 'status' of being member. But I quite appreciate the effort of PTG put to promote tuning technique. If there is a similar organization here, I will definitely support it. But its too good to become true.

ETD is also heresy in my country, and also look down by other tuners.

I like the FAQ of your web site. Could I use your FAQ with translation to Chinese?

I quit appreciate Ron's philosophy.

I also like Ryan's facebook page.

I was a full member in the seventies, and left with something “undone”, a black mark if you will. A couple of years ago I contacted the head office asking what would need to be done to clear up this problem. All I got back from them was an old issue of the journal and an application for membership. What else was I to think, but they wanted my money before my problem was worth considering?

The new testing procedure, and especially the preparation for it, speaks volumes about the PTG. It is like a bunch of hoops to jump through that prove that you know how to jump through hoops! Sure you can approach the testing with the more appropriate attitude of “How can I improve my skills?”, but that is not how it is set up.

And yet it is a great source of information that is available to the public for only a small amount more than to members, and I have made use of it. That also speaks volumes about the PTG. So I have mixed feelings.

I don't have anything against the Guild. I was a true Guild man "back in the day!'

I don't agree on having to be retested though to get back in, as I think that's redundant and a money grab. If you've passed the tuning test, you can pass the tuning test; no need for retesting. That's the only thing that keeps me from jumping back in. As far as the general public and being in business are concerned, I think being a member of BBB in good standing is far more important.

I am surprised that in the U.S. there are no alternative guilds or similar piano technician organizations offered other than the PTG. (I'm not mentioning the MTA because I beleive anyone can join that if you simply pay the enrolment fee). In Canada we have the Canadian Association of Piano Technicians (CAPT) and the Ontario Guild of Piano Technicians (OGPT). For networking and continued education, seminars are available each year at the UWO for any tech who is interested (there is a fee but no membership dues).

Although networking does have its benefits if one is cordially "accepted" into the local group, in areas of high competition amongst techs, the unfortunate reality often is that a new tech is simply seen as another guest pulling up a chair to a sparsly set table.