Loren,

What do you mean by BBB?

Better Business Bureau.

I am not sure I understand. Is there such a Bureau?

Yes, in the US.

Rafael:

It is not a government Bureau.

Ah, ok now I see my misunderstanding! Yes, it's a private bureau that businesses voluntarily belong to.

I hesitated to respond to this topic because of course, it is asking for non-members perspectives. I have been a member and RPT for 29 years and my advocacy of PTG is well known. However, there certainly are issues that I do not like which come up between certain members. They sometimes involve far more people than they should.

There are a number of misconceptions that I have seen by some non-members. PTG is open to literally anyone who wishes to join. The only exception is that if members of a local Chapter raise an objection, the Home Office will review the application and there are two committees who decide is there are grounds to deny membership. This is rarely done as PTG does not want to be sued for discrimination.

There used to be several categories of members. Those who had passed the tests were known simultaneously as Registered Craftsmen, Craftsmen, Registered Tuner-Technicians and the initials, RTT. On a motion brought up in the council meeting, all of those former titles became Registered Piano Technician or the initials, RPT. I forget the year, exactly but I think it was 1989 or 1990.

Also, I think it was 1985 or 1986 that all other categories were reduced to the title, Associate Member. Most people liked those changes but others clearly did not. Nearly every year since then, there have been proposals to re-create another kind of category. They have always been defeated in Council.

One has to realize that whatever rules or standards there are in PTG are determined by its Council. Only RPT's can be Council Members. They are elected by their Chapters. So, the Home Office and the Board (President, Vice-President, Secretary-Treasurer and all of the Regional Vice-Presidents) do not make the rules or create the standards, only Council does. The board and committees may make recommendations and proposals but it is up to the Council to approve them.

So, the testing procedures have been determined by PTG members themselves, through Council. Changes in testing procedures and standards have taken place over the years but only upon proposals which have been debated in Council and approved by Council.

Surely the issue of whether any aural tuning requirement should still be necessary has come up. Time and again, the majority opinion has maintained that a minimum demonstration of aural tuning proficiency must be one of the requirements of the RPT status. Some think that to only have to tune one string of a two octave span is far too easy. Obviously for those who cannot do it, me may as well ask them to climb Mt. Everest.

I have also been a tuning examiner for 21 years, so I have witnessed many exams and helped many people prepare for them. I have seen some very outstanding technicians who learned very well and quickly. I've seen more average types who get through the process but not easily. I have, of course seen technicians who try as they might, they never could master the skills.

I totally agree with what Tuner Jeff and Bob have said. Many people have said that one needs first to want to be an RPT for one's own personal benefit and sense of accomplishment. The Council decided that only RPT's will be listed publicly. Agree or disagree, like it or not, consider it fair or not, those are the rules that PTG RPT members decided upon. Therefore, if you think that being an RPT would benefit you personally, you know what you'll have to do. No amount of complaining is going to change that.

At one time, I personally thought that the aural tuning requirement was no longer necessary but over time, I have reversed my opinion on that. I have seen what working toward that goal has done for many technicians. You may not be able to understand what the benefit is unless you go through the process.

In 2003, I set out to try to help technicians whose only real obstacle was tuning 24 notes by ear. They could do everything else but not that. I recalled all of the various books I have on tuning. I decided to re-think the process and see if I could make a difference and I did for many people.

The latest innovation has been the Equal Temperament via Marpurg sequence. It has helped dozens of technicians pass that exam when all other methods had failed. I never met anyone who "couldn't hear beats". There may be some but I've never met them. It's not about "counting beats". I never count beats, I compare one interval to another. I also don't tune in thirds or teach people to tune in thirds as many people mistakenly believe.

The articles and videos are on my website. I can give virtual tuning tutoring to anyone, anywhere in the world thru the use of a web cam and a messenger service like Yahoo, MSN or Skype. To those wanting to learn to tune a two octave range aurally for the purposes of passing the tuning exam, I offer my expertise free of charge. All you have to do is contact me about it, have a piano and a web cam and I'm yours for the asking.

I find this whole discussion quite fascinating. Please, non members, continue! It's interesting!

In a former post in this thread I established that I don't like meetings. I don't learn well that way. I work alone, and I learn best on my own (alone). That being said, I realize that many folks like to schooze and network, and I'm glad I paid 40 years worth of dues to help a good organization and give a boost to the social set.

Thanks to Bill Bremmer's ET via Marpurg (PTG Video), I've modified and streamlined my "Both Ways from the Middle"aural temperament and found some new checks for smoothing out nasty little spinets.

One year I sat down and tried to read through the bylaws. Yikes!

I saw a quote on the bulletin board of a high school where I was tuning and servicing multiple pianos for the solo & ensemble contest season: "Don't let what you can't do get in the way of what you can".

I think I can understand why some PTG drop outs think it is unfair to have to go all through the testing again to regain RPT status. Personally, I would not have a problem with it. Indeed, some members think testing should be required after a period of say, 10 years. Some people do slack off in their skills. After all, RPT is supposed to represent a certain level of competence. There were those who felt that many of the members who were "grandfathered" in as RPT's way back when were not competent enough. Time cured that problem. Most of them have retired or passed away by now.

It all boils down to having to draw the line somewhere. Otherwise, members could drop in an out of the organization and still retain the status that the rest of us not only earned but pay to maintain. Many people complain about the high cost of dues. A new member must pay an initiation fee of $150. When I joined, it was $30 but that was also nearly 30 years ago, so $30 meant more then than it does today. The exam fees also doubled from $180 to $360. Annual dues go up nearly every year. They are now at $255 plus Chapter dues which for me brings it to $305. I also make a voluntary contribution of $100 to the PTG Foundation, so I kick in a good chunk of change every year to the organization. One would easily spend $2000 attending the annual convention.

For a young person just starting out, the tools and whatever training course or school may have cost and all those expenses for PTG really add up. Most of the active members who are successful aren't concerned about those expenses but I can see how others who may be struggling would be.

There are ways to mitigate some of the expenses. A person who has passed the written exam and either the tuning or technical exam can apply to the Foundation for a scholarship. The convention registration and the remaining exam fee are paid. One member from my Chapter did this and I asked my aunt who lives in Kansas City if she would host him and his wife so they would not have the hotel expenses. She gladly obliged.

Some people who attend get room mates to cut the hotel bill. Some stay in less expensive hotels or motels near by, some find a camping place near to the city that hosts the convention. I have also known people who have a religious affiliation who have found hosts of their persuasion in the city where the convention is held. It is also possible for a Chapter to sponsor a member. The year after hurricane Katrina hit New Orleans, one technician there lost everything but his chapter and the PTG foundation put him on his feet again and provided the testing, so he became an RPT and is now doing well.

I saw one comment on here and I dealt with another individual once who felt that PTG was only trying to make money off of him. Let me make it clear to anyone who may feel that way that it is not true. PTG is a not for profit organization. All who present classes at the conventions and seminars do not get a fee for what they do. The examiners also do not get any of the fee paid by the examinee. there are some who feel that examiners should be pair and that the fees are way too low. However, since the fees were doubled, the number of people clamoring to take exams has dropped off considerably.

Jeff D., whatever issue you had with PTG or if you felt they had an issue with you, I am not sure from what you say. If you felt wronged at some point, I am sure no one remembers a thing about it now and would only welcome you again as a return member. If, however, you committed some kind of breach of its Code of Ethics, that could still be an issue but unless anyone brings it up, there would be no problem.

You have said in the past that you were not comfortable in large gatherings and such. Since you are a part time technician, even the Associate member category is hardly worth paying for. From what I understand, you are a Journal subscriber. Also, any of PTG's publications and Journal on CD-ROM are available to non-members. Non-members can also attend any convention or seminar if they wish. They pay high rates for these than members do but for certain people, that is a level of participation that seems most appropriate and it is welcomed by PTG.

Hi, I'm new here but if you don't mind I would like to add my few 'cents' as a lurker and trained technician.

Although the PTG is invaluable as a hive mind, I myself will never become a member. These are some of the reasons why:

- The PTG makes paid advertisements against non-RPT's, trying to convince the public that they should only hire an RPT. Although it may be a good initial guideline for people to go by, trying to tell the public that a non-RPT is not to be trusted is deceitful as well as a mafia mentality. There are various skill levels of technicians both members and non members.

- With that in mind, they promote themselves as an institution of higher learning when they are not. Granted they are a valuable source of information, but they are not an organization for beginners. Although their mandate calls for educating beginners, it can fail at the local chapter level, when members don't have time or reason to help newer members. I think the guild should not pretend to be an institution of higher learning and promote itself for what it really is - a club.. or essentially, a Guild.

-Contrary to their policies, the PTG has a history of excluding, or making membership difficult, to certain groups of people. This is not just hearsay. I have experienced it myself, as well have other technicians that I am close to. I wouldn't feel comfortable going into detail for fear of repercussions to my own business or to others. I used a Mafia analogy before, if I could say it in the nicest possible way.

Unfortunately the organization as a whole doesn't enforce a strong code of conduct upon its members, or turns a blind eye. It comes down to people on an individual level.. people who are all different. Yes, some rotten apples could spoil a bunch. But that's not the problem. Every PTG member I have met so far is a wonderful human being.. and that's saying a lot. It's human nature when people get into a pack that makes me cautious. The organization lets a lot of good people slip through the cracks. Like some of our colleagues here that lost their RPT status by letting their dues lapse.

I understand that there are many positive aspects to membership, especially the opportunity for fellowship and continued learning. However these are things you don't need to be a member to take part in. There are alternative organizations, chapter meetings are sometimes open for a fee, and conventions, whether PTG or not, are always open.

An aside.. I'm surprised at the people who don't want to set a temperament by ear. Really?

I can personally attest that Bill, as do other members of PTG, offers his time liberally to sincerely interested people. He has assisted me immeasurably in understanding and setting up my TuneLab program to deliver EBVTiii, with great (and much appreciated!) results.

Rick

Wipperwill:

Welcome Aboard!

I find much of this very interesting and informative. PTG should listen up, I think. I (like or unlike) happen to agree with much of what is said in here about them.

I would also like to see less explaining by RPT's on why the PTG does this or that (that can always come later) because I'm afraid that the non members will be likely to not post anything ( or less ) then as this is a forum for them so that all of us can hear what it is they have to say.

I think I can understand why some PTG drop outs think it is unfair to have to go all through the testing again to regain RPT status. Personally, I would not have a problem with it.

Bill,
Let me clarify my position on this. I did say that I did not want to go through the retesting procedure. I can understand why they do this. As in any profession, there are those who might let their skills slip. After 20 plus years out of PTG, how can the organization be sure that I am still up to the standards they require. I just do not want to go through the procedure again, a personal choice for various reasons. Nothing against PTG.

The retesting for members who let their membership lapse is simply a money grab. It is ludicrous to assume that failure to keep up with membership or dues is in any way tied in with a loss of competancy. If this were the case, every school in the world would be charging yearly fees for graduates to retain their diplomas or credentials.

I understand that one of the main reasons for the new testing procedures is that there were complaints about unfair testing as a means of getting some people in and keeping some people out of the Guild. So I can see reasoning behind requiring retesting. But it bothers me that a higher road was not taken. Those that may have been testing unfairly were neither cleared nor condemned. It makes me think of Clockwork Orange.

Frankly, I think the new testing guideline were tailored to use a new toy and shove it down everyone's throats: the ETD. And the pass/fail level was built around setting the temperament with CM3s to the detriment of tuning small pianos.

When I let my membership laps, I was given the choice of re- testing or paying all the back dues. That would have been mid 1980's.

This clearly says it's about the money doesn't it?

I called the home office in 2005 and asked to pay back dues instead of re testing, and was turned down. It would have come to at least $2000 in back dues. I wasn't very happy at having to re-test, and I complained about it on these forums, but it was a good refresher/learning experience and in the end, I found it beneficial.

I feel all PTG members should take the written test every 5 years...(easily done at chapter meeting, or maybe even on line) and each member should tune a piano for the chapter every 10 years. If the informal tuning for the chapter sounds like garbage, the tuner could be referred for re take of the tuning test. There should be mandatory continuing education - even if it's only watching a webinar.

I don't believe in the once an RPT, always an RPT. We need to earn it every day. Many do. Some don't.

That's interesting Bob. I'm not quite of that opinion about RPT's required testing every 5 years, but I DO think that if PTG offered a CE (continuing education) membership opportunity, it would make sense to continue education...obviously.

AND, I'd personally LOVE to train/test/check my work at any and every PTG opportunity, conventions et al. So, here's at least one non-member who recognizes the opportunity to learn and train. But, why the emphasis on any particular status or standing? It makes no difference in the trade, in my experience anyway.

But, in truth, getting a large body of people who tested for RPT status to ever agree that another membership alongside for those not interested in RPT status is possible, is never going to happen.

In Michigan, land surveyors got together and lobbied for tough NEW laws for all NEW surveyors, and its kept many NEW people out of the trade. That worked really well for the old-timers for a good long time. Then, eventually they had nobody to sell their practices to.

Getting the old guard to agree to expand membership is probably similar...why "dilute" what they've already accomplished by diffusing membership?

Why indeed.

Rick

PS By the way, I've had conversations with more than a few prominent PTG members who also question the direction of PTG...I think this is healthy, and I don't read this as disloyal or disrespectful...I hope my own comments are viewed in a good light also. R

Ryan,
I appreciate your initiative in posting this topic. I think it is extremely worthwhile to get perspective of those who aren't PTG members.

I would affirm this to all who are not currently PTG members. Please keep your comments coming. For me, PTG has been a very good thing and I believe it's existence is the result of many who have made selfless contributions . However, in no way do I believe it is at the pinnacle of what it could yet become.

I think the perspective of others is valuable.

Bill you quoted $360.00 to take the exam. Where are the testing expenses? And why are the National dues five times the chapter dues?

There certainly are costs involved with exam administration even though the examiners do not receive even a portion of the fee. If the examiners incur expenses such as for travel and lodging, they get those expenses reimbursed but they get no money for their time.

So, that accounts for some of what exam fees go for. There are forms, there is Home Office staff who receive and forward the documents. There are the documents themselves. The exams are provided at annual conventions. The pianos used in the exams are donated but there are moving costs. The rooms at the hotels must be paid for.

Chapters or exam sites known as Regional Exam Boards aside from convention receive half the fees. That money goes into the Chapter or Board treasury to pay exam expenses. The technical exam requires a lot of equipment. The tuning exam requires a specially made device for the stability test.

While the Chapters and Exam Boards may possibly take in more than they spend, they can use the funds for other purposes such as their continuing education or to sponsor a technician in need.

A review of the PTG budget will show that the exam fees only partially offset the total expenses incurred by offering exams.

I also welcome non-members comments but I do have to say that very often, the reasons I hear or read from non-members or members who do not want to be tested are irrational and sometimes paranoid. A not for profit organization does not engage in a "money grab", for example. PTG does not try in any way to exclude people who want to join. PTG does not run ads that denigrate or disparage non members or its Associate members.

If one concludes that PTG which is a professional Association of Registered Piano Technicians denigrates other technicians by simply promoting its own registered members, that is all in one's own mind. Ford does not say that Chevy's are "no good and can't be trusted" for example by promoting its own products and emphasizing what they believe to be the superiority of their products.

The reference to the Mafia is way out of line, in my opinion. No wonder that person feels he has to hide his identity. I certainly have never heard of and it is nowhere in the bylaws that any person who drops from membership has the option of paying back dues rather than being tested again in order to regain the RPT title. That is NOT PTG policy. If someone really told such a person that they could regain RPT status simply by paying money to PTG, the person who said that had no foundation in the rules or bylaws of PTG.

What Mark Schecter, RPT, said about PTG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHzrlQyZKg4

My perception is that the organization while striving for higher standards in the profession, is not doing enough to encourage apprenticeships, or to feed smaller communities with capable concert level techs, to maintain fine pianos.

I am glad, however, that the exam requires tuners to tune by ear.. and not rely on the machine.
Thank you for that.

Also the business of grandfathering in people who 'were there back at the beginning" and might not have ample skills in the present, is somewhat disturbing because it may impact the care of pianos, of particular worth.

I wonder how prevalent these misconceptions are.

Associations of the nature of the guild are basically a bunch of guys and gals that get together once a month, each for their own reasons, and do much to promote skills in their profession and deal with any internal political matters that might arise. They have absolutely no control over who does what in the piano tuning profession, many recognised concert tuners are not members, nor is membership any condition of gaining employment at that level of expertise.

Becoming proficient has nothing to do with membership but attending meetings is a valuable resource for anybody wishing to learn the profession.

While it is one of the few ways that piano techs can prove their basic attainments, the word 'Guild' should never be confused with the European medieval guilds that did have absolute control over their professions.

Losing ones faculties through age has nothng to do with continuous holding of membership or readmission. All members will eventually lose their abilities, as will non members.

Part of the function of a healthy guild chapter is the encouragement of students. Any chapter that doesn't or is in other ways exclusionary is destined to become a typical old boys club.

I think, by now, the story of the local chapter of alcoholics anonymous that reverted to being a drinking club because they ran out of prospects to convert.

I remember that, at the dizzying height of chapter president, I attended a national meeting as a deligate only to find out that a former national president was receiving, or about to receive a pension for life. What came of this?

I think your reply to my quote starts with a miss-interpretation
Just to let you know that I've attended a few local PTG Guild meetings here in Fresno, and in fact interviewed one of your very capable members, and seminar presenters, Laroy Edwards. Certainly the aspect of lifting standards through education not only within your member ranks but also having a better window to the public (those who own pianos and not DPS) might be a suggestible path at the level of your PTG Board members --The National President of the Guild etc. and those you have elected. (at the national level) As a piano teacher who owns four pianos, one of which is not at the level of the others by any means as showcased in set of current videos, if I am struggling to maintain three fine instruments because of a dearth of local capable technicians at the level of regulation, voicing etc. then perhaps as a suggestion for developing and proliferating a force of techs who don't just say, I tune but don't regulate and the rest, then your NATIONAL reps ought to look into paths to remedy the situation. Certainly the Guild in whatever path it takes at the local level should not operate in a vacuum as far as the greater community of piano owners is concerned. Just the fact that so many people buy the digital pianos, is one indication that piano maintenance of a decent level has become harder to achieve.. And we all know that there are cost related reasons as well for the DP ownership trend that have nothing to do with piano maintenance per se. Basically PTG, as the umbrella organization should have some seminars related to educating the public about the needs of pianos, while at the CONVENTIONS they should start taking a hard look at the "Vanishing Piano Technician" and what that means. Great article by concert pianist, James Boyk. When Kendall Brown retired his life was dramatically changed. When Al Ellis, retired here in Fresno back in the 80's many of us Steinway grand owners were seriously impacted. My tragedy was memorialized in the Piano Quarterly.

That is why, early in this thread, I suggested replacing the annual council with an expanded board of directors. The 400 RPT's at council do not represent everybody in the PTG, as some chapters can't or don't send anyone. No one in my chapter has gone to council since I went, about 5 years ago, so our chapter has not been represented recently.

A good board of directors can establish the direction for the PTG in a way that membership increases, taking into account the suggestions from the membership, but always focused on what is good for the future of all.

- The PTG makes paid advertisements against non-RPT's, trying to convince the public that they should only hire an RPT. Although it may be a good initial guideline for people to go by, trying to tell the public that a non-RPT is not to be trusted is deceitful as well as a mafia mentality. There are various skill levels of technicians both members and non members.

I sympathize with this. RPT certification is NO guarantee, for sure, of capability and excellence. Thank you for posting.

"THE VOICES of Piano Technicians around the country"
http://arioso7.wordpress.com/2012/03/13/26291/