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Topic Options
#1859103 - 03/09/12 06:42 PM Perception of the PTG from non members
rysowers Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 2402
Loc: Olympia, WA
I know, this may seem like in inflammatory subject, but its one that has been on my mind lately.

I'm curious to know how the non PTG technicians perceive the guild. My goal is not to defend PTG but to just get a sense of others thoughts and feelings.

I encourage participants to be honest yet reasonably diplomatic and respectful with their comments.

Thanks for posting!
_________________________
Ryan Sowers,
Pianova Piano Service
Olympia, WA
www.pianova.net

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#1859135 - 03/09/12 08:08 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
Roger Ransom Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/05
Posts: 1254
Loc: SouthWest Michigan
After many years of experience, my perception is that the PTG is an organization of people who choose to get together to support each other working on pianos. It does not indicate to me that they are necessarily any better than others who choose not to join a group.

In my network technology life, there were users groups that I feel were for the same purpose. These people were/are not necessarily the best or worst in the industry.

I rely on recommendations and personal experience for my perceptions.

Having said that, if I were in a brand new geographic area, the PTG would be a good place to start looking for qualified people until I gathered some independent experience.

You asked for personal perceptions, this is mine.
_________________________
Laugh More
Yamaha G7 - Roland FP7

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#1859146 - 03/09/12 08:33 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
Dave B Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/01/11
Posts: 1955
Loc: Philadelphia area
I let my membership lapse because I wasn't able to attend chapter meetings. The dues then amounted to a very expensive magazine subscription.

I was considering rejoining until I was told that I would have to redo the RPT exam because the home office lost all the records.

I was disappointed and saddened to hear this because I was part of one of the first groups (a test group) to take what was at the time 'the new test'. And to think that this was just one of the many recorded projects that were lost is disheartening.

This was many years ago. So I guess it still depends on what is happening at the Chapter level.

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#1859162 - 03/09/12 09:28 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4187
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada



I believe the PTG is a good source of information. I also believe that the PTG provides an avenue for people who benefit from a group setting. The shared fellowship involved, along with the willingness of many of the members to share and help the new members learn more is significant. Many people in all walks of life benefit greatly from this kind of setting to learn in. The PTG is one of those groups for this trade.

I am the type of person who does not do well in this type of setting. I enjoyed my university and fine arts school studies. I have never had a problem with the PTG or the existence of the PTG or its mandate.

The problem as I see it is not the PTG or its function, it is the “us and them” divisiveness often encountered by non-members from members. But I am sure this is problematic with any group versus non-group affiliation.
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#1859164 - 03/09/12 09:33 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
rysowers Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 2402
Loc: Olympia, WA
Thanks for the responses so far! This is really interesting.
_________________________
Ryan Sowers,
Pianova Piano Service
Olympia, WA
www.pianova.net

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#1859174 - 03/09/12 09:58 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
David Jenson Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/22/06
Posts: 2081
Loc: Maine
I'm not someone who likes meetings. Since I live in a rural area and that means LONG drives to those meetings that I don't like, I reluctantly shed my membership a year ago after some 40 years as a RPT (or equivalent) member.

I think it's a great org. but as I got older, I found I liked my alone time more and more.
_________________________
David L. Jenson
Tuning - Repairs - Refurbishing
Jenson's Piano Service
-----

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#1859177 - 03/09/12 10:08 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
beethoven986 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/20/09
Posts: 3321
Originally Posted By: rysowers
I know, this may seem like in inflammatory subject, but its one that has been on my mind lately.

I'm curious to know how the non PTG technicians perceive the guild. My goal is not to defend PTG but to just get a sense of others thoughts and feelings.

I encourage participants to be honest yet reasonably diplomatic and respectful with their comments.

Thanks for posting!


I am pro-PTG, but not an associate member because paying off student loans and buying tech tools are more urgent (the high cost of PTG can be a huge burden for young people). I do plan to join hopefully later this year, though. That said, I do regularly hear stories from veterans about the various interpolitical issues that come up, which is kind of a turn off, but I guess you will have that in any organization.
_________________________
B.Mus. Piano Performance 2009
M.Mus. Piano Performance & Literature 2011
PTG Associate Member
Certified Dampp-Chaser installer

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#1859187 - 03/09/12 10:59 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
RPD Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/07/05
Posts: 961
Loc: Kalamazoo Michigan
I support PTG through buying the Journal subscription yearly, and attending occasional meetings...many great friends in the local chapter...

I don't formally join because I won't attend regular meetings due to schedule and travel (being honest, not making a judgement as to value here :-)

I sincerely wish PTG would offer a "CE" membership status...continuing education membership only. I'm just not interested in RPT status, but the learning and continuing education IS something I love about PTG. I think the editorial style of the Journal is better now, but in the past it spoke "down" to Associate members and that rubs the wrong way when I know so many very heavy techs who are associates! (Chuck Behm, Alex Kaptyn both come to mind...amazing techs.)

Anyway, thanks for asking and listening. My local chapter knows that if locally or nationally I am able to join as a member without the pressure to take RPT exams I'd be happy to do so. (by pressure I mean this: the PTG website wont list Associate members, and directs new inquiries to RPT's only...so unless somebody wants to test in, we'd be supporting an organization that advertises AGAINST non RPTs!...which is just a non-starter for me)

Just my humble 2cents worth...nothing more.

Rick
_________________________
MPT(Master Piano Technicians of America)
Member AMICA (Automated Musical Instruments Collector's Association)
(Subscriber PTG Journal)
Piano-Tuner-Rebuilder/Musician www.actionpianoservice.com

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#1859374 - 03/10/12 11:29 AM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
That Guy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/07/11
Posts: 399
Loc: Lincoln, NE
I agree that the RPT status sets up a hierarchy. You could be in the business for 20 years or more but if you join the PTG you'd still have to prove yourself. I think the marketplace should be the place to decide if someone is capable or not. Like Rick, I'm just not interested in the RPT thing. And, what's really a shame, is that you lose your RPT status if you don't keep up on your dues. That's like earning a degree at a college or university but only being able to keep it if you pay dues every year.
_________________________
Scott Kerns
"That Tuning Guy"
Lincoln, NE
www.thattuningguy.com

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#1859532 - 03/10/12 04:29 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
Bob Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/01/01
Posts: 3854

I believe that change within the PTG is too slow. The PTG can not respond with any kind of speed to changing market conditions, and changing attitudes of it's members.

The impediment to quick response and change is the council system.

I would suggest removing the annual council and replacing it with decisions from the board. I'd like to see the board comprised of all RVP's, all officers, legal counsel, financial counsel, a member or two from the home office staff, a couple of RPT's and a couple of Associates from the ranks. It takes 400 RPT's at council 1-2 days to accomplish what a board could decide in 1 hour. If you have ever been to council, you know what I mean.

Board meetings could be skyped or web cast to the ranks (except for sensitive personnel matters). A summary of decisions could be easily emailed to members.

Now that we have a governing body that can make decisions quickly, without waiting to some annual meeting, the rank and file can submit suggestions to the board for discussion, decisions, and implementation.

If it is the desire of the board to change bylaws, Associate and RPT relationships, tuning tests, and any other important matters, it's a relatively simple thing to do. It would not require an act of god by the council.

I would imagine one of the reasons for the council set up was to slow down change in the PTG on purpose. However, the world is changing faster than the council can react.

It's time to give the board the power to lead the PTG in a positive direction for the future without being constrained by some bylaw it can't easily change.

Promote the acoustic piano - Promoting the piano is far more important for the future than promoting RPT over Associates.

By the way, I really like the newsletter via email. That is a great step forward!

_________________________
www.PianoTunerOrlando.com






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#1859545 - 03/10/12 04:45 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2546
Loc: PA
I was an RPT and in CTE (certified tuning examiner) training, and president of our chapter (Erie 165). In 1996 I let my dues lapse while going through some life changes, so lost the RPT status. Like Dave, I decided I wasn't going to go through all the testing again. I feel it's pointless when I already passed them once.
_________________________
DiGiorgi Piano Service (1984-2013)
http://www.digiorgipiano.com

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#1859561 - 03/10/12 05:27 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: Dave B]
wcctuner Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/22/06
Posts: 113
Loc: Princeton, NJ
Just like Dave B and others said, I let my membership lapse in the late 80's because I could not attend chapter meetings because of another ongoinging committment on meeting nights, and the cost of membership at the time. If I remember correctly we were called craftsman, not RPT then. When did the designation change from craftsman to RTP? I also was interested in rejoining some years ago, but I really did not want to go through the retesting procedure. At one time I think PTG had a process where one could rejoin if sponsored by a current member. Am I just dreamining this??
_________________________
Dave Forman
Piano Technician, Westminster Choir College of Rider University

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#1859565 - 03/10/12 05:32 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: wcctuner]
wcctuner Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/22/06
Posts: 113
Loc: Princeton, NJ
Also, I do believe that PTG is a excellent organization, committed to educating beginning techs and tuners.
_________________________
Dave Forman
Piano Technician, Westminster Choir College of Rider University

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#1859635 - 03/10/12 08:34 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: wcctuner]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2546
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: wcctuner
Just like Dave B and others said, I let my membership lapse in the late 80's because I could not attend chapter meetings because of another ongoinging committment on meeting nights, and the cost of membership at the time. If I remember correctly we were called craftsman, not RPT then. When did the designation change from craftsman to RTP? I also was interested in rejoining some years ago, but I really did not want to go through the retesting procedure. At one time I think PTG had a process where one could rejoin if sponsored by a current member. Am I just dreamining this??


Actually, we used to be called RTT's (registered tuner-technician) and then they changed it to RPT. You can rejoin if sponsored but you still have to take the tests.
_________________________
DiGiorgi Piano Service (1984-2013)
http://www.digiorgipiano.com

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#1859684 - 03/10/12 11:26 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: Loren D]
kpembrook Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/10
Posts: 1308
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: Loren D
Originally Posted By: wcctuner
Just like Dave B and others said, I let my membership lapse in the late 80's because I could not attend chapter meetings because of another ongoinging committment on meeting nights, and the cost of membership at the time. If I remember correctly we were called craftsman, not RPT then. When did the designation change from craftsman to RTP? I also was interested in rejoining some years ago, but I really did not want to go through the retesting procedure. At one time I think PTG had a process where one could rejoin if sponsored by a current member. Am I just dreamining this??


Actually, we used to be called RTT's (registered tuner-technician) and then they changed it to RPT. You can rejoin if sponsored but you still have to take the tests.



Yup. But before that we were Craftsman Members.
_________________________
Keith Akins, RPT
USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings
Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair

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#1859693 - 03/11/12 12:31 AM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: kpembrook]
pianocat88 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/14/02
Posts: 99
Loc: Huntington Beach, CA
Membership requirements have basically remained the same but the application process is different. You join through Home Office and your local chapter is notified. Please see membership FAQ's and application online at www.ptg.org The Home Office staff is available to answer questions about membership. (913)432-9975

The list of Registered Piano Technicians on the website IS the register. When you pass your exams, the register, the knowledge that you can pass the minimum standard in our biz, advertising rights to use the RPT logo, local and regional leadership opportunities, and full voting rights at the National level are the big deal.
All the other benefits of being a member are for Associates as well as RPT's: meetings, Journal, seminars and conventions, networking with other members, participation in commercial partner benefits like insurance and credit card.
_________________________
Lisa Weller, RPT
Huntington Beach, CA
www.wellerpianoservice.com

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#1859975 - 03/11/12 04:04 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
Supply Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 3919
Loc: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
It should be noted that all are welcome to attend PTG seminars and conventions. After attending one or two, a non-member technician might understand the value of PTG more fully. The combination of professional development and fellowship/networking with like-minded individuals is priceless.
_________________________
Jurgen Goering
Piano Forte Supply
www.pianofortesupply.com

Piattino Caster Cups distributor

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#1859995 - 03/11/12 04:30 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
Ryan Hassell Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 07/07/09
Posts: 455
Loc: Farmington, MO
As a tuner that relies on an ETD to tune, I feel that I am looked down upon because I could probably not set a temperament by ear if I had to. I do use my ears to tune unisons, but feel that Tunelab does a MUCH better job calculating what tuning curve is needed for a specific piano that what I would do. I feel it's an antiquated notion to require people wanting to become an RPT to have to pass a tuning exam by ear. I am not against testing, I had to pass the Praxis test to be a registered teacher in the state of Missouri. I would be more likely to join if the Guild would let me use my ETD to take the exam.
_________________________
Ryan G. Hassell
Hassell's Piano Tuning
Farmington, MO
www.hassellspianotuning.com
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Hassells-Piano-Tuning/163155880804
ryanhassell@hotmail.com

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#1860070 - 03/11/12 06:55 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
TunerJeff Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/22/11
Posts: 463
Loc: Oregon Coast
Dear Ryan(s),

I was trying to leave Ryan's thread alone...and let the non-members answer his question...but I would like to keep things accurate.

The Tuning Exam only requires tuning single strings from C3 to B4 by ear. The midrange of the piano is completely muted, and you are only dealing with the single strings and have 45 minutes to get those 24 wires fairly close to in-tune. It doesn't even have to be perfect, just pretty good.

You certainly can use your machine for the next section of the test, for the bass, treble, and high treble sections.

Then the machine is parked, and you tune the unisons from C3 to B4 by ear.

Why? It's not really to much to ask that you show that you know where a machine tuning should be trying to go, is it? The test simply makes sure that you understand what unisons, 4ths, 5ths, and 3rds should sound like...and how to put them together.

I agree and support Jurgen's point that the personal development and the networking with others in the craft is ...literally... priceless.

Rolling 200 miles,
for each meeting,
I am,
a PTG member,
_________________________
Jeffrey T. Hickey, RPT
Oregon Coast Piano Services
TunerJeff440@aol.com

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#1860072 - 03/11/12 07:01 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: Loren D]
OperaTenor Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2381
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
Originally Posted By: Loren D
Originally Posted By: wcctuner
Just like Dave B and others said, I let my membership lapse in the late 80's because I could not attend chapter meetings because of another ongoinging committment on meeting nights, and the cost of membership at the time. If I remember correctly we were called craftsman, not RPT then. When did the designation change from craftsman to RTP? I also was interested in rejoining some years ago, but I really did not want to go through the retesting procedure. At one time I think PTG had a process where one could rejoin if sponsored by a current member. Am I just dreamining this??


Actually, we used to be called RTT's (registered tuner-technician) and then they changed it to RPT. You can rejoin if sponsored but you still have to take the tests.



wcctuner is actually correct. Back in the day, the two levels were "Craftsman" and "Apprentice." I was an Apprentice member in 1976 when I apprenticed in a rebuilding shop.
_________________________
Happiness is a freshly tuned piano.
Jim Boydston, proprietor, No Piano Left Behind - technician
[url=www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind]www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind[/url]

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#1860074 - 03/11/12 07:09 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
Bob Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/01/01
Posts: 3854
Hi Ryan, if you focused on temperament setting, with perhaps someone to guide you, you could learn to do set a reasonable temperament in a short time. ETD's can and do break down, so an aural temperament is a good thing to have in your tool kit. That is why it's on the tuning test.
_________________________
www.PianoTunerOrlando.com






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#1860145 - 03/11/12 09:24 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
Ryan Hassell Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 07/07/09
Posts: 455
Loc: Farmington, MO
I'm sorry, with all due respect, I just don't see the point of learning to set a temperament by ear. Bob, look at it in this context ...Yes, my truck does break down from time to time, but I don't resort to riding a horse for the fear that my truck might not get me where I'm going. The above process that TunerJeff describes seems way too complicated and would be less stable than tuning unisons as you go and applying equal tension across the piano. What's most important is how the piano ends up sounding in the end and if the customer is happy. Using Tunelab and the EBVT3 layered on top of the stretch that Tunelab calculates leave a GREAT sounding piano. Many of my new customers tell me that their piano has NEVER sounded that good. I have more business that I can keep up with. If you would like to read some of the testimonials of my customers, take a look at my website.
_________________________
Ryan G. Hassell
Hassell's Piano Tuning
Farmington, MO
www.hassellspianotuning.com
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Hassells-Piano-Tuning/163155880804
ryanhassell@hotmail.com

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#1860164 - 03/11/12 10:07 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
Bob Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/01/01
Posts: 3854
Ryan, I can see your point of view, and I often use Tunelab myself to do the first pass on temperaments and pitch raises. I am not against allowing people to test by tuning the whole piano the way they normally tune, aural or ETD, but I believe there may be standardization issues by testing that way. I can tell you that sometimes an ETD does not calculate a good tuning - and when that happens, it's nice to pick that up before finishing the whole piano, and realizing too late there is an error. If I'm fine tuning by ETD (which I rarely do), I like to check aurally how things are tuning up.

Having said that, there are probably a bunch of tuners who share your opinion and I respect that. In fact, I've made the suggestion on these forums to have two types of RPT, and Aural RPT who tested by ear only, and an RPT who tested by ETD only. But that is not without issues of it's own.

When I learned to tune, ETD's were not very common, so we all learned aurally. I had to re-learn techniques when I got my first ETD only five years ago. Like the ability to tune an aural temperament, my ETD is another tool at my disposal.

Even if you were able to pass the tuning tests via ETD only, I'll bet at some point down the road, curiosity and/or boredom would cause you to explore tuning by ear.

You could try this option:

1. Have someone spend an hour or two with you on temperament setting
2. For the next week, set a quick temperament by ear, then correct it with Tune lab
3. Re-visit temperament setting with your mentor
4. Do the same as # 2
5. Repeat # 1 and # 2 till you have confidence in your temperament, then take the tuning test.

BTW, Ryan, nice website!
_________________________
www.PianoTunerOrlando.com






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#1860172 - 03/11/12 10:22 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
Ryan Hassell Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 07/07/09
Posts: 455
Loc: Farmington, MO
Bob, thanks for the nice response. Thank you too for not being condescending like others have been on here to me before. It just seems like a lot of extra work that I really don't have time to do. In just the short time that I posted the last post, I went on Facebook to see what was going on and picked up two more tunings! WOW! When my mentor told me that there were enough neglected pianos here in the Mineral Area to keep four tuners busy full-time, I thought he was kidding...I'm seeing now that he really wasn't. Maybe someday when I get caught up I will attempt to tune a temperament aurally.

Thanks again.
_________________________
Ryan G. Hassell
Hassell's Piano Tuning
Farmington, MO
www.hassellspianotuning.com
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Hassells-Piano-Tuning/163155880804
ryanhassell@hotmail.com

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#1860203 - 03/11/12 11:11 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
That Guy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/07/11
Posts: 399
Loc: Lincoln, NE
Ryan, I'm glad to hear of another TuneLab user! It's a very good program and reasonably priced. I've been using it now for about 10 years I think. I've been tuning now going on 17 years and I've never had a break down of my ETD. (I had a Yamaha PT100 before I got TuneLab.) Maybe it's a lifestyle thing. I'm just always keeping an eye on my devices, making sure they're charged up and ready to go. I've got a backup device too. My ETD is also my mp3 player so I have it plugged in in my car when I'm not using it.

When it comes to the temperament thing it's a losing battle. You have lots of happy customers and to me that's the bottom line. In the PTG this would be heresy but in my mind it's just pianos we're talking about. We're not doing brain surgery. At least that's the world I live in. I'll leave the "high powered" tunings to someone else, although I do tune for a couple of recording studios and have had no complaints.

Great web site Ryan! Take a look at mine when you get a chance.
_________________________
Scott Kerns
"That Tuning Guy"
Lincoln, NE
www.thattuningguy.com

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#1860233 - 03/12/12 12:23 AM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: Supply]
RPD Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/07/05
Posts: 961
Loc: Kalamazoo Michigan
Originally Posted By: Supply
It should be noted that all are welcome to attend PTG seminars and conventions. After attending one or two, a non-member technician might understand the value of PTG more fully. The combination of professional development and fellowship/networking with like-minded individuals is priceless.


That's quite correct. I've been MORE than welcomed and Jane and I warmly received at multiple PTG events...convention to meetings, its a great group of people and I can't say enough about PTG's mission and excellence.

FWIW

Rick
_________________________
MPT(Master Piano Technicians of America)
Member AMICA (Automated Musical Instruments Collector's Association)
(Subscriber PTG Journal)
Piano-Tuner-Rebuilder/Musician www.actionpianoservice.com

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#1860271 - 03/12/12 02:05 AM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: That Guy]
Weiyan Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/04/11
Posts: 769
Loc: Hong Kong
Originally Posted By: That Guy
Ryan, I'm glad to hear of another TuneLab user! It's a very good program and reasonably priced. I've been using it now for about 10 years I think. I've been tuning now going on 17 years and I've never had a break down of my ETD. (I had a Yamaha PT100 before I got TuneLab.) Maybe it's a lifestyle thing.

I don't know why I became an associate of PTG. May be for the 'status' of being member. But I quite appreciate the effort of PTG put to promote tuning technique. If there is a similar organization here, I will definitely support it. But its too good to become true.

ETD is also heresy in my country, and also look down by other tuners.

I like the FAQ of your web site. Could I use your FAQ with translation to Chinese?

I quit appreciate Ron's philosophy.

I also like Ryan's facebook page.
_________________________
Fake Book player
Ragtime beginner
http://weiyanwo.wordpress.com

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#1860322 - 03/12/12 07:42 AM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4919
Loc: Bradford County, PA
I was a full member in the seventies, and left with something “undone”, a black mark if you will. A couple of years ago I contacted the head office asking what would need to be done to clear up this problem. All I got back from them was an old issue of the journal and an application for membership. What else was I to think, but they wanted my money before my problem was worth considering?

The new testing procedure, and especially the preparation for it, speaks volumes about the PTG. It is like a bunch of hoops to jump through that prove that you know how to jump through hoops! Sure you can approach the testing with the more appropriate attitude of “How can I improve my skills?”, but that is not how it is set up.

And yet it is a great source of information that is available to the public for only a small amount more than to members, and I have made use of it. That also speaks volumes about the PTG. So I have mixed feelings.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1860337 - 03/12/12 08:13 AM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2546
Loc: PA
I don't have anything against the Guild. I was a true Guild man "back in the day!'

I don't agree on having to be retested though to get back in, as I think that's redundant and a money grab. If you've passed the tuning test, you can pass the tuning test; no need for retesting. That's the only thing that keeps me from jumping back in. As far as the general public and being in business are concerned, I think being a member of BBB in good standing is far more important.
_________________________
DiGiorgi Piano Service (1984-2013)
http://www.digiorgipiano.com

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#1860373 - 03/12/12 10:02 AM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2365
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
I am surprised that in the U.S. there are no alternative guilds or similar piano technician organizations offered other than the PTG. (I'm not mentioning the MTA because I beleive anyone can join that if you simply pay the enrolment fee). In Canada we have the Canadian Association of Piano Technicians (CAPT) and the Ontario Guild of Piano Technicians (OGPT). For networking and continued education, seminars are available each year at the UWO for any tech who is interested (there is a fee but no membership dues).

Although networking does have its benefits if one is cordially "accepted" into the local group, in areas of high competition amongst techs, the unfortunate reality often is that a new tech is simply seen as another guest pulling up a chair to a sparsly set table.
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#1860400 - 03/12/12 11:07 AM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: Loren D]
Gadzar Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1681
Loc: Mexico City
Loren,

What do you mean by BBB?
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#1860408 - 03/12/12 11:15 AM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: Gadzar]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2546
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: Gadzar
Loren,

What do you mean by BBB?



Better Business Bureau.
_________________________
DiGiorgi Piano Service (1984-2013)
http://www.digiorgipiano.com

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#1860418 - 03/12/12 11:23 AM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
Gadzar Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1681
Loc: Mexico City
I am not sure I understand. Is there such a Bureau?
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#1860427 - 03/12/12 11:51 AM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: Gadzar]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2546
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: Gadzar
I am not sure I understand. Is there such a Bureau?



Yes, in the US.
_________________________
DiGiorgi Piano Service (1984-2013)
http://www.digiorgipiano.com

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#1860431 - 03/12/12 11:55 AM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4919
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Rafael:

It is not a government Bureau.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1860434 - 03/12/12 12:05 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: UnrightTooner]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2546
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
Rafael:

It is not a government Bureau.


Ah, ok now I see my misunderstanding! Yes, it's a private bureau that businesses voluntarily belong to.
_________________________
DiGiorgi Piano Service (1984-2013)
http://www.digiorgipiano.com

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#1860474 - 03/12/12 01:39 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3194
Loc: Madison, WI USA
I hesitated to respond to this topic because of course, it is asking for non-members perspectives. I have been a member and RPT for 29 years and my advocacy of PTG is well known. However, there certainly are issues that I do not like which come up between certain members. They sometimes involve far more people than they should.

There are a number of misconceptions that I have seen by some non-members. PTG is open to literally anyone who wishes to join. The only exception is that if members of a local Chapter raise an objection, the Home Office will review the application and there are two committees who decide is there are grounds to deny membership. This is rarely done as PTG does not want to be sued for discrimination.

There used to be several categories of members. Those who had passed the tests were known simultaneously as Registered Craftsmen, Craftsmen, Registered Tuner-Technicians and the initials, RTT. On a motion brought up in the council meeting, all of those former titles became Registered Piano Technician or the initials, RPT. I forget the year, exactly but I think it was 1989 or 1990.

Also, I think it was 1985 or 1986 that all other categories were reduced to the title, Associate Member. Most people liked those changes but others clearly did not. Nearly every year since then, there have been proposals to re-create another kind of category. They have always been defeated in Council.

One has to realize that whatever rules or standards there are in PTG are determined by its Council. Only RPT's can be Council Members. They are elected by their Chapters. So, the Home Office and the Board (President, Vice-President, Secretary-Treasurer and all of the Regional Vice-Presidents) do not make the rules or create the standards, only Council does. The board and committees may make recommendations and proposals but it is up to the Council to approve them.

So, the testing procedures have been determined by PTG members themselves, through Council. Changes in testing procedures and standards have taken place over the years but only upon proposals which have been debated in Council and approved by Council.

Surely the issue of whether any aural tuning requirement should still be necessary has come up. Time and again, the majority opinion has maintained that a minimum demonstration of aural tuning proficiency must be one of the requirements of the RPT status. Some think that to only have to tune one string of a two octave span is far too easy. Obviously for those who cannot do it, me may as well ask them to climb Mt. Everest.

I have also been a tuning examiner for 21 years, so I have witnessed many exams and helped many people prepare for them. I have seen some very outstanding technicians who learned very well and quickly. I've seen more average types who get through the process but not easily. I have, of course seen technicians who try as they might, they never could master the skills.

I totally agree with what Tuner Jeff and Bob have said. Many people have said that one needs first to want to be an RPT for one's own personal benefit and sense of accomplishment. The Council decided that only RPT's will be listed publicly. Agree or disagree, like it or not, consider it fair or not, those are the rules that PTG RPT members decided upon. Therefore, if you think that being an RPT would benefit you personally, you know what you'll have to do. No amount of complaining is going to change that.

At one time, I personally thought that the aural tuning requirement was no longer necessary but over time, I have reversed my opinion on that. I have seen what working toward that goal has done for many technicians. You may not be able to understand what the benefit is unless you go through the process.

In 2003, I set out to try to help technicians whose only real obstacle was tuning 24 notes by ear. They could do everything else but not that. I recalled all of the various books I have on tuning. I decided to re-think the process and see if I could make a difference and I did for many people.

The latest innovation has been the Equal Temperament via Marpurg sequence. It has helped dozens of technicians pass that exam when all other methods had failed. I never met anyone who "couldn't hear beats". There may be some but I've never met them. It's not about "counting beats". I never count beats, I compare one interval to another. I also don't tune in thirds or teach people to tune in thirds as many people mistakenly believe.

The articles and videos are on my website. I can give virtual tuning tutoring to anyone, anywhere in the world thru the use of a web cam and a messenger service like Yahoo, MSN or Skype. To those wanting to learn to tune a two octave range aurally for the purposes of passing the tuning exam, I offer my expertise free of charge. All you have to do is contact me about it, have a piano and a web cam and I'm yours for the asking.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1860556 - 03/12/12 04:46 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
I find this whole discussion quite fascinating. Please, non members, continue! It's interesting! smile
_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#1860645 - 03/12/12 07:09 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
David Jenson Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/22/06
Posts: 2081
Loc: Maine
In a former post in this thread I established that I don't like meetings. I don't learn well that way. I work alone, and I learn best on my own (alone). That being said, I realize that many folks like to schooze and network, and I'm glad I paid 40 years worth of dues to help a good organization and give a boost to the social set.

Thanks to Bill Bremmer's ET via Marpurg (PTG Video), I've modified and streamlined my "Both Ways from the Middle"aural temperament and found some new checks for smoothing out nasty little spinets.

One year I sat down and tried to read through the bylaws. Yikes!
_________________________
David L. Jenson
Tuning - Repairs - Refurbishing
Jenson's Piano Service
-----

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#1860685 - 03/12/12 07:56 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3194
Loc: Madison, WI USA
I saw a quote on the bulletin board of a high school where I was tuning and servicing multiple pianos for the solo & ensemble contest season: "Don't let what you can't do get in the way of what you can".

I think I can understand why some PTG drop outs think it is unfair to have to go all through the testing again to regain RPT status. Personally, I would not have a problem with it. Indeed, some members think testing should be required after a period of say, 10 years. Some people do slack off in their skills. After all, RPT is supposed to represent a certain level of competence. There were those who felt that many of the members who were "grandfathered" in as RPT's way back when were not competent enough. Time cured that problem. Most of them have retired or passed away by now.

It all boils down to having to draw the line somewhere. Otherwise, members could drop in an out of the organization and still retain the status that the rest of us not only earned but pay to maintain. Many people complain about the high cost of dues. A new member must pay an initiation fee of $150. When I joined, it was $30 but that was also nearly 30 years ago, so $30 meant more then than it does today. The exam fees also doubled from $180 to $360. Annual dues go up nearly every year. They are now at $255 plus Chapter dues which for me brings it to $305. I also make a voluntary contribution of $100 to the PTG Foundation, so I kick in a good chunk of change every year to the organization. One would easily spend $2000 attending the annual convention.

For a young person just starting out, the tools and whatever training course or school may have cost and all those expenses for PTG really add up. Most of the active members who are successful aren't concerned about those expenses but I can see how others who may be struggling would be.

There are ways to mitigate some of the expenses. A person who has passed the written exam and either the tuning or technical exam can apply to the Foundation for a scholarship. The convention registration and the remaining exam fee are paid. One member from my Chapter did this and I asked my aunt who lives in Kansas City if she would host him and his wife so they would not have the hotel expenses. She gladly obliged.

Some people who attend get room mates to cut the hotel bill. Some stay in less expensive hotels or motels near by, some find a camping place near to the city that hosts the convention. I have also known people who have a religious affiliation who have found hosts of their persuasion in the city where the convention is held. It is also possible for a Chapter to sponsor a member. The year after hurricane Katrina hit New Orleans, one technician there lost everything but his chapter and the PTG foundation put him on his feet again and provided the testing, so he became an RPT and is now doing well.

I saw one comment on here and I dealt with another individual once who felt that PTG was only trying to make money off of him. Let me make it clear to anyone who may feel that way that it is not true. PTG is a not for profit organization. All who present classes at the conventions and seminars do not get a fee for what they do. The examiners also do not get any of the fee paid by the examinee. there are some who feel that examiners should be pair and that the fees are way too low. However, since the fees were doubled, the number of people clamoring to take exams has dropped off considerably.

Jeff D., whatever issue you had with PTG or if you felt they had an issue with you, I am not sure from what you say. If you felt wronged at some point, I am sure no one remembers a thing about it now and would only welcome you again as a return member. If, however, you committed some kind of breach of its Code of Ethics, that could still be an issue but unless anyone brings it up, there would be no problem.

You have said in the past that you were not comfortable in large gatherings and such. Since you are a part time technician, even the Associate member category is hardly worth paying for. From what I understand, you are a Journal subscriber. Also, any of PTG's publications and Journal on CD-ROM are available to non-members. Non-members can also attend any convention or seminar if they wish. They pay high rates for these than members do but for certain people, that is a level of participation that seems most appropriate and it is welcomed by PTG.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1860702 - 03/12/12 08:24 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
Whipperwill Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/04/12
Posts: 1
Hi, I'm new here but if you don't mind I would like to add my few 'cents' as a lurker and trained technician.

Although the PTG is invaluable as a hive mind, I myself will never become a member. These are some of the reasons why:

- The PTG makes paid advertisements against non-RPT's, trying to convince the public that they should only hire an RPT. Although it may be a good initial guideline for people to go by, trying to tell the public that a non-RPT is not to be trusted is deceitful as well as a mafia mentality. There are various skill levels of technicians both members and non members.

- With that in mind, they promote themselves as an institution of higher learning when they are not. Granted they are a valuable source of information, but they are not an organization for beginners. Although their mandate calls for educating beginners, it can fail at the local chapter level, when members don't have time or reason to help newer members. I think the guild should not pretend to be an institution of higher learning and promote itself for what it really is - a club.. or essentially, a Guild.

-Contrary to their policies, the PTG has a history of excluding, or making membership difficult, to certain groups of people. This is not just hearsay. I have experienced it myself, as well have other technicians that I am close to. I wouldn't feel comfortable going into detail for fear of repercussions to my own business or to others. I used a Mafia analogy before, if I could say it in the nicest possible way.

Unfortunately the organization as a whole doesn't enforce a strong code of conduct upon its members, or turns a blind eye. It comes down to people on an individual level.. people who are all different. Yes, some rotten apples could spoil a bunch. But that's not the problem. Every PTG member I have met so far is a wonderful human being.. and that's saying a lot. It's human nature when people get into a pack that makes me cautious. The organization lets a lot of good people slip through the cracks. Like some of our colleagues here that lost their RPT status by letting their dues lapse.

I understand that there are many positive aspects to membership, especially the opportunity for fellowship and continued learning. However these are things you don't need to be a member to take part in. There are alternative organizations, chapter meetings are sometimes open for a fee, and conventions, whether PTG or not, are always open.

An aside.. I'm surprised at the people who don't want to set a temperament by ear. Really?

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#1860774 - 03/12/12 11:20 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
RPD Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/07/05
Posts: 961
Loc: Kalamazoo Michigan
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT


......I offer my expertise free of charge. All you have to do is contact me about it, have a piano and a web cam and I'm yours for the asking.


I can personally attest that Bill, as do other members of PTG, offers his time liberally to sincerely interested people. He has assisted me immeasurably in understanding and setting up my TuneLab program to deliver EBVTiii, with great (and much appreciated!) results.

Rick
_________________________
MPT(Master Piano Technicians of America)
Member AMICA (Automated Musical Instruments Collector's Association)
(Subscriber PTG Journal)
Piano-Tuner-Rebuilder/Musician www.actionpianoservice.com

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#1860907 - 03/13/12 08:11 AM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4919
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Wipperwill:

Welcome Aboard!
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1860916 - 03/13/12 08:22 AM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
I find much of this very interesting and informative. PTG should listen up, I think. I (like or unlike) happen to agree with much of what is said in here about them.

I would also like to see less explaining by RPT's on why the PTG does this or that (that can always come later) because I'm afraid that the non members will be likely to not post anything ( or less ) then as this is a forum for them so that all of us can hear what it is they have to say. smile
_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#1860954 - 03/13/12 09:42 AM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
wcctuner Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/22/06
Posts: 113
Loc: Princeton, NJ
I think I can understand why some PTG drop outs think it is unfair to have to go all through the testing again to regain RPT status. Personally, I would not have a problem with it.

Bill,
Let me clarify my position on this. I did say that I did not want to go through the retesting procedure. I can understand why they do this. As in any profession, there are those who might let their skills slip. After 20 plus years out of PTG, how can the organization be sure that I am still up to the standards they require. I just do not want to go through the procedure again, a personal choice for various reasons. Nothing against PTG.


Edited by wcctuner (03/13/12 09:43 AM)
_________________________
Dave Forman
Piano Technician, Westminster Choir College of Rider University

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#1861033 - 03/13/12 11:51 AM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2365
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
The retesting for members who let their membership lapse is simply a money grab. It is ludicrous to assume that failure to keep up with membership or dues is in any way tied in with a loss of competancy. If this were the case, every school in the world would be charging yearly fees for graduates to retain their diplomas or credentials.
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#1861086 - 03/13/12 01:43 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: Emmery]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4919
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: Emmery
The retesting for members who let their membership lapse is simply a money grab. It is ludicrous to assume that failure to keep up with membership or dues is in any way tied in with a loss of competancy. If this were the case, every school in the world would be charging yearly fees for graduates to retain their diplomas or credentials.


I understand that one of the main reasons for the new testing procedures is that there were complaints about unfair testing as a means of getting some people in and keeping some people out of the Guild. So I can see reasoning behind requiring retesting. But it bothers me that a higher road was not taken. Those that may have been testing unfairly were neither cleared nor condemned. It makes me think of Clockwork Orange.

Frankly, I think the new testing guideline were tailored to use a new toy and shove it down everyone's throats: the ETD. And the pass/fail level was built around setting the temperament with CM3s to the detriment of tuning small pianos.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1861109 - 03/13/12 02:27 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1703
Loc: London, England
When I let my membership laps, I was given the choice of re- testing or paying all the back dues. That would have been mid 1980's.


Edited by rxd (03/13/12 02:37 PM)
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#1861132 - 03/13/12 02:58 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rxd]
Roger Ransom Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/05
Posts: 1254
Loc: SouthWest Michigan
Originally Posted By: rxd
When I let my membership laps, I was given the choice of re- testing or paying all the back dues. That would have been mid 1980's.


This clearly says it's about the money doesn't it?
_________________________
Laugh More
Yamaha G7 - Roland FP7

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#1861432 - 03/13/12 10:39 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
Bob Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/01/01
Posts: 3854
I called the home office in 2005 and asked to pay back dues instead of re testing, and was turned down. It would have come to at least $2000 in back dues. I wasn't very happy at having to re-test, and I complained about it on these forums, but it was a good refresher/learning experience and in the end, I found it beneficial.

I feel all PTG members should take the written test every 5 years...(easily done at chapter meeting, or maybe even on line) and each member should tune a piano for the chapter every 10 years. If the informal tuning for the chapter sounds like garbage, the tuner could be referred for re take of the tuning test. There should be mandatory continuing education - even if it's only watching a webinar.

I don't believe in the once an RPT, always an RPT. We need to earn it every day. Many do. Some don't.
_________________________
www.PianoTunerOrlando.com






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#1861446 - 03/13/12 11:10 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: Bob]
RPD Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/07/05
Posts: 961
Loc: Kalamazoo Michigan
Originally Posted By: Bob


I feel all PTG members should take the written test every 5 years...(easily done at chapter meeting, or maybe even on line) and each member should tune a piano for the chapter every 10 years. If the informal tuning for the chapter sounds like garbage, the tuner could be referred for re take of the tuning test. There should be mandatory continuing education - even if it's only watching a webinar.

I don't believe in the once an RPT, always an RPT. We need to earn it every day. Many do. Some don't.


That's interesting Bob. I'm not quite of that opinion about RPT's required testing every 5 years, but I DO think that if PTG offered a CE (continuing education) membership opportunity, it would make sense to continue education...obviously.

AND, I'd personally LOVE to train/test/check my work at any and every PTG opportunity, conventions et al. So, here's at least one non-member who recognizes the opportunity to learn and train. But, why the emphasis on any particular status or standing? It makes no difference in the trade, in my experience anyway.

But, in truth, getting a large body of people who tested for RPT status to ever agree that another membership alongside for those not interested in RPT status is possible, is never going to happen.

In Michigan, land surveyors got together and lobbied for tough NEW laws for all NEW surveyors, and its kept many NEW people out of the trade. That worked really well for the old-timers for a good long time. Then, eventually they had nobody to sell their practices to.

Getting the old guard to agree to expand membership is probably similar...why "dilute" what they've already accomplished by diffusing membership?

Why indeed.

Rick

PS By the way, I've had conversations with more than a few prominent PTG members who also question the direction of PTG...I think this is healthy, and I don't read this as disloyal or disrespectful...I hope my own comments are viewed in a good light also. R
_________________________
MPT(Master Piano Technicians of America)
Member AMICA (Automated Musical Instruments Collector's Association)
(Subscriber PTG Journal)
Piano-Tuner-Rebuilder/Musician www.actionpianoservice.com

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#1861450 - 03/13/12 11:23 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
kpembrook Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/10
Posts: 1308
Loc: Michigan
Ryan,
I appreciate your initiative in posting this topic. I think it is extremely worthwhile to get perspective of those who aren't PTG members.

I would affirm this to all who are not currently PTG members. Please keep your comments coming. For me, PTG has been a very good thing and I believe it's existence is the result of many who have made selfless contributions . However, in no way do I believe it is at the pinnacle of what it could yet become.

I think the perspective of others is valuable.
_________________________
Keith Akins, RPT
USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings
Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair

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#1861463 - 03/13/12 11:40 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
Dave B Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/01/11
Posts: 1955
Loc: Philadelphia area
Bill you quoted $360.00 to take the exam. Where are the testing expenses? And why are the National dues five times the chapter dues?

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#1861495 - 03/14/12 01:25 AM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: Dave B]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3194
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: Dave B
Bill you quoted $360.00 to take the exam. Where are the testing expenses? And why are the National dues five times the chapter dues?


There certainly are costs involved with exam administration even though the examiners do not receive even a portion of the fee. If the examiners incur expenses such as for travel and lodging, they get those expenses reimbursed but they get no money for their time.

So, that accounts for some of what exam fees go for. There are forms, there is Home Office staff who receive and forward the documents. There are the documents themselves. The exams are provided at annual conventions. The pianos used in the exams are donated but there are moving costs. The rooms at the hotels must be paid for.

Chapters or exam sites known as Regional Exam Boards aside from convention receive half the fees. That money goes into the Chapter or Board treasury to pay exam expenses. The technical exam requires a lot of equipment. The tuning exam requires a specially made device for the stability test.

While the Chapters and Exam Boards may possibly take in more than they spend, they can use the funds for other purposes such as their continuing education or to sponsor a technician in need.

A review of the PTG budget will show that the exam fees only partially offset the total expenses incurred by offering exams.

I also welcome non-members comments but I do have to say that very often, the reasons I hear or read from non-members or members who do not want to be tested are irrational and sometimes paranoid. A not for profit organization does not engage in a "money grab", for example. PTG does not try in any way to exclude people who want to join. PTG does not run ads that denigrate or disparage non members or its Associate members.

If one concludes that PTG which is a professional Association of Registered Piano Technicians denigrates other technicians by simply promoting its own registered members, that is all in one's own mind. Ford does not say that Chevy's are "no good and can't be trusted" for example by promoting its own products and emphasizing what they believe to be the superiority of their products.

The reference to the Mafia is way out of line, in my opinion. No wonder that person feels he has to hide his identity. I certainly have never heard of and it is nowhere in the bylaws that any person who drops from membership has the option of paying back dues rather than being tested again in order to regain the RPT title. That is NOT PTG policy. If someone really told such a person that they could regain RPT status simply by paying money to PTG, the person who said that had no foundation in the rules or bylaws of PTG.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1861496 - 03/14/12 01:26 AM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
music32 Offline
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Registered: 01/07/07
Posts: 1196
Loc: Berkeley, California
What Mark Schecter, RPT, said about PTG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHzrlQyZKg4
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#1861498 - 03/14/12 01:32 AM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
music32 Offline
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Loc: Berkeley, California
My perception is that the organization while striving for higher standards in the profession, is not doing enough to encourage apprenticeships, or to feed smaller communities with capable concert level techs, to maintain fine pianos.

I am glad, however, that the exam requires tuners to tune by ear.. and not rely on the machine.
Thank you for that.

Also the business of grandfathering in people who 'were there back at the beginning" and might not have ample skills in the present, is somewhat disturbing because it may impact the care of pianos, of particular worth.
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#1861567 - 03/14/12 07:14 AM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: music32]
rxd Offline
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Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1703
Loc: London, England
Originally Posted By: music32
My perception is that the organization while striving for higher standards in the profession, is not doing enough to encourage apprenticeships, or to feed smaller communities with capable concert level techs, to maintain fine pianos.....

.....Also the business of grandfathering in people who 'were there back at the beginning" and might not have ample skills in the present, is somewhat disturbing because it may impact the care of pianos, of particular worth.


I wonder how prevalent these misconceptions are.

Associations of the nature of the guild are basically a bunch of guys and gals that get together once a month, each for their own reasons, and do much to promote skills in their profession and deal with any internal political matters that might arise. They have absolutely no control over who does what in the piano tuning profession, many recognised concert tuners are not members, nor is membership any condition of gaining employment at that level of expertise.

Becoming proficient has nothing to do with membership but attending meetings is a valuable resource for anybody wishing to learn the profession.

While it is one of the few ways that piano techs can prove their basic attainments, the word 'Guild' should never be confused with the European medieval guilds that did have absolute control over their professions.

Losing ones faculties through age has nothng to do with continuous holding of membership or readmission. All members will eventually lose their abilities, as will non members.

Part of the function of a healthy guild chapter is the encouragement of students. Any chapter that doesn't or is in other ways exclusionary is destined to become a typical old boys club.

I think, by now, the story of the local chapter of alcoholics anonymous that reverted to being a drinking club because they ran out of prospects to convert.

I remember that, at the dizzying height of chapter president, I attended a national meeting as a deligate only to find out that a former national president was receiving, or about to receive a pension for life. What came of this?
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#1861608 - 03/14/12 09:30 AM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rxd]
music32 Offline
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Registered: 01/07/07
Posts: 1196
Loc: Berkeley, California

I think your reply to my quote starts with a miss-interpretation
Just to let you know that I've attended a few local PTG Guild meetings here in Fresno, and in fact interviewed one of your very capable members, and seminar presenters, Laroy Edwards. Certainly the aspect of lifting standards through education not only within your member ranks but also having a better window to the public (those who own pianos and not DPS) might be a suggestible path at the level of your PTG Board members --The National President of the Guild etc. and those you have elected. (at the national level) As a piano teacher who owns four pianos, one of which is not at the level of the others by any means as showcased in set of current videos, if I am struggling to maintain three fine instruments because of a dearth of local capable technicians at the level of regulation, voicing etc. then perhaps as a suggestion for developing and proliferating a force of techs who don't just say, I tune but don't regulate and the rest, then your NATIONAL reps ought to look into paths to remedy the situation. Certainly the Guild in whatever path it takes at the local level should not operate in a vacuum as far as the greater community of piano owners is concerned. Just the fact that so many people buy the digital pianos, is one indication that piano maintenance of a decent level has become harder to achieve.. And we all know that there are cost related reasons as well for the DP ownership trend that have nothing to do with piano maintenance per se. Basically PTG, as the umbrella organization should have some seminars related to educating the public about the needs of pianos, while at the CONVENTIONS they should start taking a hard look at the "Vanishing Piano Technician" and what that means. Great article by concert pianist, James Boyk. When Kendall Brown retired his life was dramatically changed. When Al Ellis, retired here in Fresno back in the 80's many of us Steinway grand owners were seriously impacted. My tragedy was memorialized in the Piano Quarterly.
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#1861612 - 03/14/12 09:36 AM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: RPD]
Bob Offline
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Registered: 06/01/01
Posts: 3854
Originally Posted By: RPD

But, in truth, getting a large body of people who tested for RPT status to ever agree that another membership alongside for those not interested in RPT status is possible, is never going to happen.



That is why, early in this thread, I suggested replacing the annual council with an expanded board of directors. The 400 RPT's at council do not represent everybody in the PTG, as some chapters can't or don't send anyone. No one in my chapter has gone to council since I went, about 5 years ago, so our chapter has not been represented recently.

A good board of directors can establish the direction for the PTG in a way that membership increases, taking into account the suggestions from the membership, but always focused on what is good for the future of all.
_________________________
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#1861619 - 03/14/12 09:41 AM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: Whipperwill]
music32 Offline
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Registered: 01/07/07
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Loc: Berkeley, California
- The PTG makes paid advertisements against non-RPT's, trying to convince the public that they should only hire an RPT. Although it may be a good initial guideline for people to go by, trying to tell the public that a non-RPT is not to be trusted is deceitful as well as a mafia mentality. There are various skill levels of technicians both members and non members.

I sympathize with this. RPT certification is NO guarantee, for sure, of capability and excellence. Thank you for posting.

"THE VOICES of Piano Technicians around the country"
http://arioso7.wordpress.com/2012/03/13/26291/


Edited by music32 (03/14/12 09:43 AM)
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#1861650 - 03/14/12 10:54 AM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
Roger Ransom Online   content
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Loc: SouthWest Michigan
So, the title of this thread is asking for non-members perception of the PTG. (emphasis mine)

Several have done that and then it appears that the 2nd, unspoken part of that is that the members then tell us why we're wrong and actually paranoid in some cases.

Looks like a typical adversary discussion to me. Too bad.
_________________________
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#1861658 - 03/14/12 11:00 AM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
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Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4187
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada
I agree. This thread seems to now be somewhat suspicious. First there is the invitation to non-members to offer their perception of the PTG.
The first page of this thread was fine.

Then the accusations begin to fly….. and non-members are instructed as to what their perception should be or they are paranoid, wrong, incorrect or whatever……PTG is not a money grab etc etc…..

A kind of veiled way to get this forum talking about the PTG continuously.

I have always had a lot to speak on with this organization but again it is not the PTG itself

BUT SOME OF THE MEMBERS WHO ARE PROBLEMATIC.

Anyone getting the idea?

_________________________
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"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#1861668 - 03/14/12 11:24 AM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
UnrightTooner Offline
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Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4919
Loc: Bradford County, PA
I would never belong to an organization that would have ME as a member! laugh laugh laugh

But really, Dan, I agree. It is almost like there are two PTGs. The one that the members wish it was like and the one that, well, is what it is.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1861680 - 03/14/12 11:46 AM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
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Any group suffers from members who have their wishes Jeff.

People have to remember that membership is voluntary. If one voluntarily signs up to give their autonomy to another party they can hardly complain about the rules set in place for the group.

The response will always be: the rules are for the betterment of the group.

Roger correctly points out this thread is for non-member perceptions of the PTG. It is not a thread about protecting the virtues of the PTG and offering rebuttal of non-member perceptions.
_________________________
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www.silverwoodpianos.com
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"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#1861714 - 03/14/12 12:42 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
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Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
Yes, you guys are 100 % right. I agree with your perception of what is taking place. That's why I specifically asked for and will do so again that ALL RPT's PLEASE REFRAIN YOURSELVES from defending the PTG. Just sit, be quite and listen. DO NOT defend the PTG's position. This is not what this thread is all about....

Thanks,
Jer
_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#1861782 - 03/14/12 02:13 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
That Guy Offline
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Registered: 10/07/11
Posts: 399
Loc: Lincoln, NE
Thank you Jerry. That's exactly why I stopped posting. I was wondering if someone was going to get around to the original post and who was invited to comment.
_________________________
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"That Tuning Guy"
Lincoln, NE
www.thattuningguy.com

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#1861785 - 03/14/12 02:16 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
UnrightTooner Offline
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Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4919
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Would the RPTs please STOP posting about NOT posting! laugh
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1861809 - 03/14/12 02:49 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
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Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
crazy
_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#1861927 - 03/14/12 05:05 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
rysowers Offline
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Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 2402
Loc: Olympia, WA
Thanks for keeping the thread on track folks!

I'm glad this is not degenerating into a "us vs. them" forum. I agree that it was inappropriate to start accusing people of paranoia and fear in regards to taking exams. That really has nothing to do with this topic, and we shouldn't go there.

My intent in starting this was sincere. I've been thinking a lot about the PTG this past year and am questioning the direction it is currently heading and wondering what direction it will head in the future. Hearing non-members perceptions is really interesting and useful.

Maybe another interesting question to add to the mix is this:

What would your ideal piano technician organization look like?

Thanks for posting!
_________________________
Ryan Sowers,
Pianova Piano Service
Olympia, WA
www.pianova.net

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#1861991 - 03/14/12 06:46 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
David Jenson Online   content
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Registered: 10/22/06
Posts: 2081
Loc: Maine
"What would your ideal piano technician organization look like?" Ryan Sowers

For me, it would look a lot like this forum. Piano World has done a marvelous job here. The dues are just right, and there are no meetings! Our competence is judged by our clientele. Did I mention no meetings? YAY!!!
_________________________
David L. Jenson
Tuning - Repairs - Refurbishing
Jenson's Piano Service
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#1861996 - 03/14/12 06:53 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
Loren D Offline
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Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2546
Loc: PA
What David said!
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#1862134 - 03/14/12 10:41 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: Jerry Groot RPT]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
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Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3194
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: Jerry Groot RPT
Yes, you guys are 100 % right. I agree with your perception of what is taking place. That's why I specifically asked for and will do so again that ALL RPT's PLEASE REFRAIN YOURSELVES from defending the PTG. Just sit, be quite and listen. DO NOT defend the PTG's position. This is not what this thread is all about....

Thanks,
Jer


OK, I will, at least for a while until it simmers down.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1862139 - 03/14/12 10:47 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
That Guy Offline
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Registered: 10/07/11
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Loc: Lincoln, NE
I think for a lot of us (certainly not all) what David just said is the bottom line. We're not into meetings, status, politics or maybe not even very social. We enjoy what we do and want to continue to improve but don't want to be pushed. We like going at our own pace and doing things our way. That's one of the main reasons I'm in this business. Therefore, to be a part of an organization - any organization - is almost counter-productive for us.

Just a side note: There are, of course, other professions that have guilds or associations. My brother has been a dentist for about 30 years and has never joined the ADA. He's just never seen the need.

I guess what I'm saying is, the PTG couldn't change enough to be right for everyone. There are some who wouldn't join no matter what. Not because they're angry or upset, but it just isn't their thing.
_________________________
Scott Kerns
"That Tuning Guy"
Lincoln, NE
www.thattuningguy.com

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#1862199 - 03/15/12 12:21 AM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
OperaTenor Offline
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Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2381
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
I have a tangential question to toss out here for Bill Bremmer and any other RPT who's an experienced examiner: I have had drug-induced tinnitus since 1992, and until four years ago thought I'd never tune another piano as long as I lived. I got to know Ron Koval via these piano forums, and he taught me how to tune by listening for the sweet spot in the fundamental pitch, because I can't listen to partials anymore. I can now tune completely aurally - as a matter of fact, I think can tune better now than before. I tune for a lot of professionals and they are all impressed with my work.

Does my different method of tuning handicap me for taking the RPT exam?
_________________________
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Jim Boydston, proprietor, No Piano Left Behind - technician
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#1862231 - 03/15/12 01:14 AM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
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Registered: 08/21/02
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Loc: Madison, WI USA
I would be glad to answer your question, OperaTenor. I have a touch of tinnitus too that comes and goes but it has no pitch to it, thankfully. Just that "crickets in Summer" kind of sound after I have been exposed to long periods of sound of any kind. Some quiet for a while generally relieves it.

Regardless of that, however, I must say that I have never been one to focus on partials to hear beats. It is what some say they do and what some suggest to those who have trouble perceiving beats. I, however, play an interval of any kind and either hear a beat or not.

The late Virgil Smith, RPT who was widely known and renowned for his ability and as a teacher of piano tuning, discouraged the focusing on partials. He taught that one should listen to the "whole sound".

I hope those comments are helpful to you.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1862363 - 03/15/12 07:45 AM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
Emmery Offline
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Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2365
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
With all due respect to V.S., countless technicians have been taught to tune by similar exemplary tuners/teachers with beat counting and listening to partials being the very foundation of the learning path. At the school I attended, we had a pair of huge tuning forks outside the tuning rooms which beat out the theoretical F3-A3 beat rate and we would strike them with a mallet before entering the rooms to practice and burn that beat rate into our heads (as a rough guideline). Simply getting in the ball park of what that initial F3-A4 beat rate was counter productive in comparison to the little time spent learning what that beat rate actually was and getting as close as possible to it. It generally gets adjusted a little bit anyways, after we determine the rest of the temperament, but adjusting it as little as possible cuts down a lot of backtracking work.

I honestly think that if a person does not have a reasonably good understanting of what 1 bps is, they have no business talking about anything to do with beat rates period. Can you expect a person to maintain the speed limit with their car if they never seen or understood what a speedometer is?

I have also heard from countless techs, read in articles and hear for myself that once a beat rate approaches 10-11 bps or higher, its distinctive qualities begins to take on the appearance of "souring" rather than any useful comparative beat rate... topping off or including an F3-F4 temperament's CM3's with an F4-A4 M3rd (as often suggested) is a useless waste of time for most people IMHO.

The CM3's are simply another tool we have at our disposal for tuning, if needed. It can help some people, and others who have difficulty with rapid beat rates find out that its just a different hurdle to clear with its own challenges.
_________________________
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George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#1862406 - 03/15/12 09:43 AM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4919
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Emmery:

I agree that the F4-A4 M3 is beating awfully fast to be of much use. But by including A4, that gives you the F3-A4 M10, and when compared to the F3-A3 M3 it is very valuable. Well, I find it valuable along with the other, lower M10s in a D3-A4 temperament. It can really separate "the bone from the marrow" on small pianos.

[Edit:] But really we are getting off-track. There is another, ongoing Topic about this.


Edited by UnrightTooner (03/15/12 09:59 AM)
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1862413 - 03/15/12 09:57 AM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
UnrightTooner Offline
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Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4919
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: rysowers
…..

What would your ideal piano technician organization look like?

Thanks for posting!

I got this from the PTG website:

”The mission of the Piano Technicians Guild is to promote the highest possible standards of piano service by providing members with opportunities for professional development, by recognizing technical competence through examinations and by advancing the interests of its members.”

To me the problem is that the focus is on servicing the pianos and serving the members rather than providing service to the customer.

How well are the vast majority of piano customers, which have a middle aged spinet or console or old upright, served by this mission? I would say poorly. Terms like “highest possible standards”, “technical competence through examinations” and “advancing interests of its members” bring visions of concert grands and long tailed coats, not of grade schoolers on a hand-me-down piano that were moved by an uncle in the back of a pick-up (gasp!), or musty rusty old uprights in church basements (you are smarter than a 5th grader if you can spell hantavirus) that are a vital part of people’s worship. The fine folks that are looking to improve such a pianos, so the grade schooler will not be discouraged or the old folks can enjoy their worship, can be turned off by the attitude such a mission statement generates. They will see hard earned money flying out the window for a type of service that they are not interested in and cannot afford.

And from what I see on this Forum, I think the PTG is holding true to its stated mission. Just consider the general attitude toward small, middle-aged or old neglected upright pianos: not worth the time, not worth the money, and by inference neither is the grade schooler or the worshiper!

So my “ideal piano technician organization” would be geared toward serving all CUSTOMERS in the way that THEY need for THEIR benefit. And this would include wonderful things for the members like learning, proving and promoting. But the idea of “the highest possible standards” would be replaced with the “best possible service”.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1862417 - 03/15/12 10:07 AM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
That Guy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/07/11
Posts: 399
Loc: Lincoln, NE
Why did the tinnitus question get put in here? Please start another thread.
_________________________
Scott Kerns
"That Tuning Guy"
Lincoln, NE
www.thattuningguy.com

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#1862507 - 03/15/12 01:06 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: UnrightTooner]
rysowers Offline
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Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 2402
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:
So my “ideal piano technician organization” would be geared toward serving all CUSTOMERS in the way that THEY need for THEIR benefit. And this would include wonderful things for the members like learning, proving and promoting. But the idea of “the highest possible standards” would be replaced with the “best possible service”.


Really terrific point, Jeff! The client's needs should always be #1.
_________________________
Ryan Sowers,
Pianova Piano Service
Olympia, WA
www.pianova.net

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#1862548 - 03/15/12 02:10 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
That Guy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/07/11
Posts: 399
Loc: Lincoln, NE
I'm on board with Jeff also. The customer calls you back, not the piano. I've had people over the years tell me about the last tuner that told them everything their piano needed (and they hadn't asked) and they didn't call them back. Now, I'm not saying the piano may not have needed all those things but usually my policy is, if they don't ask for an evaluation of their piano I won't give it. I know this runs counter to what the PTG would say.
_________________________
Scott Kerns
"That Tuning Guy"
Lincoln, NE
www.thattuningguy.com

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#1862821 - 03/15/12 10:33 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
RPD Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/07/05
Posts: 961
Loc: Kalamazoo Michigan
Originally Posted By: rysowers


What would your ideal piano technician organization look like?


Well, for me anyway, the Guild almost embodies it. The problems aren't with the content or conventions (not at all!), nor the character of the individuals who make up the membership...all good there...

The problems are with membership, actual relevance, and marketing.

For example, in MY ideal Guild the following would be true:

1. All members would enjoy full benefits of inclusivity in advertising on the website. Various members could still have different levels, qualifications, et al. A basic RPT would not be expected to know rebuilding in detail, for instance...nor would somebody who mainly rebuilds be ignored on the site simply because s/he isn't RPT. Even the Boy Scouts celebrate ALL of their members, not just the Eagle Scouts. Reserving advertising within the Guild for just RPT members is very conterproductive-at least when viewed from the outside looking in anyway.

2. The organization would change its image from one which attempts to qualify technicians for the job in the eyes of the general public, to a new image where the primary purpose is EDUCATION AND ADVOCACY for the industry AND the public. Once the Guild is seen primarily as an outreach organization where education is uppermost then it would pretty unavoidable for the average technician to avoid joining! (What?!, you aren't part of the educational continuim??")...

3. Following that point, new members would be allowed into the full benefits of membership once they pledge to the code of ethics, and that is that.

4. There would still be ways within the Guild to distinguish one's self...RPT, or CAUT, CE (continuing educational member)plus possibly Craftsman/Rebuilder et al...but in MY Guild everybody would benefit from advertising on the website/Journal and everybody would, in turn, become a walking advertisment FOR the Guild. After all, why not?? If I as a new member of that Guild was able to SEND people to the website without being degraded/ignored/invisible, then I'd be more interested in availing myself of the great organizational supports, and sharing those with my clients.

5. My Guild would grow exponentially due to the immediate welcoming AS TRADE PROFESSIONALS of all of my collegues...

6. In MY imaginary PTG, technicians would evolve beyond competing against NON members, into a more full communion WITH all techs. In real life, we all get along just fine...but the schism between members vs non-members would all but disappear in favor of a full welcome for everybody. Remember, the Guild would be evolving beyond promoting only SOME techs who are seen as qualified into promoting ALL techs AND THE ENTIRE INDUSTRY who are part of the family of continuing education.

7. Finally, in MY Guild the organization would become incredibly relevant in the market because so many more technicians would be part of the organization. Its already a small group industry wide, but if we focused on education and dropped the emphasis on who's qualified/not qualified, it would be a healthier way to promote. I am reminded that nobody benefits in any public endeavor when controversy is part of the package...FULL MEMBER BENEFITS FOR EVERY TECHNICIAN would tend to eliminate all the controversy.

Would any of this work? I think so, yes. But, getting people who worked hard for their RPT status to agree to open full membership/promotioin/publicity/advocacy to ALL members would take some doing. However, when compared with where PTG is today (well respected, but moreless invisible to the general public) I think the changes would be more than valuable.

I close with one thought. No city, with any number of citizens requires a vote of EVERYBODY to enact policy...I'm with whomever suggested the PTG elect a board of directors with the power to make necessary change...to fail to do this is to keep the same structure, with all the same ruts.

Respectfully and Affectionately submitted....

Rick

PS I'm a member of a smaller organization (Master Piano Techs of America) which actually adopts this membership strategy and they're growing...they're particular about new members and it took me a whole YEAR to get approved to join because they do a series of interviews, and the membership votes in new members. Still, it felt welcoming and this year's (small) convention still will be featuring Rick Baldassen, Randy Potter and other industry heavies. My point in mentioning this is that if something works well on a small scall, it will also work on a large scale....FWIW


Edited by RPD (03/15/12 10:38 PM)
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#1862832 - 03/15/12 11:02 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
rysowers Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 2402
Loc: Olympia, WA
Wow! Amazing post, RPD. thumb
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Pianova Piano Service
Olympia, WA
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#1862861 - 03/16/12 12:12 AM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
Excellent post Rick!!!! AND I agree too!!! smile
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#1862885 - 03/16/12 01:30 AM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
OperaTenor Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2381
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
I would be glad to answer your question, OperaTenor. I have a touch of tinnitus too that comes and goes but it has no pitch to it, thankfully. Just that "crickets in Summer" kind of sound after I have been exposed to long periods of sound of any kind. Some quiet for a while generally relieves it.

Regardless of that, however, I must say that I have never been one to focus on partials to hear beats. It is what some say they do and what some suggest to those who have trouble perceiving beats. I, however, play an interval of any kind and either hear a beat or not.

The late Virgil Smith, RPT who was widely known and renowned for his ability and as a teacher of piano tuning, discouraged the focusing on partials. He taught that one should listen to the "whole sound".

I hope those comments are helpful to you.


Thank you, Bill. What I gather from that is, when it come to the RPT exam, the result is what matters more than the methodology?


Edited by OperaTenor (03/16/12 01:33 AM)
_________________________
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#1862888 - 03/16/12 01:32 AM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: That Guy]
OperaTenor Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2381
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
Originally Posted By: That Guy
Why did the tinnitus question get put in here? Please start another thread.


The tinnitus question got put in here because it pertains to the RPT test, which is relevant to the perception of the PTG from non members. No thank you, I won't start another thread.


Edited by OperaTenor (03/16/12 01:32 AM)
_________________________
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#1862955 - 03/16/12 07:17 AM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4919
Loc: Bradford County, PA
After reading rXd’s excellent post, and reconsidering my own, I have something to add. The PTG’s “customers” are the RPTs. And since the PTG is also run by their “customers” that makes it a sort of co-op, or in this case, a guild. So maybe the self-promotion of the guild members is not so out of line as I think. Maybe there is absolutely nothing wrong with the PTG as it stands – they are serving their customers which are the RPTs, not the RPT’s customers which are the piano owners. I guess I am not into self-promotion.

[Edit:] I leave my promotion up to my customers. smile


Edited by UnrightTooner (03/16/12 08:46 AM)
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Part-Time Tuner
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#1862969 - 03/16/12 08:01 AM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2546
Loc: PA
RPD, the organization you just described sounds like....MPT. laugh
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#1862989 - 03/16/12 08:59 AM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: Loren D]
RPD Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/07/05
Posts: 961
Loc: Kalamazoo Michigan
Originally Posted By: Loren D
RPD, the organization you just described sounds like....MPT. laugh


Loren, yes...it does :-)

What I find is that the techs (to the person) within PTG are willing to help EVERYBODY with education...I've learned from Jer Groot and Bill Bremmer very valuable lessons/information...everybody shares liberally of their knowledge and experience already...so, what I propose I guess is just a formalization of that continuing education stance that the great body of PTG already adopts anyway...and just reflect it in the PTG business model.

Humbly submitted, all....

Rick
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#1863024 - 03/16/12 10:35 AM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
jim ialeggio Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/03/05
Posts: 621
Loc: shirley, MA
Excellent post RPD.

From an accomplished, totally committed, pushing the envelope rebuilder, who happens to be an Associate, here's what the ideal PTG is for me.

It is the accessibility to select and unbelievably generous mentors from around the country, who I realized from conventions, pianotech(old list), this forum, the journal or personal references, would be the appropriate person to help me gain a specific skill, or come to terms with a particular design issue, is what the ideal PTG is to me. Its about a network of accessible persons and knowledge with a very particular shared interest.

The last few years clearly has seen the marketing aspect, or more specifically,the "credibility to the public through certification" as it affects on perceived RPT marketability, create a wedge which threatens the accessibility of knowledge and experience I mentioned above as the reason I am a member of the PTG. Lets face it, marketing is about gaining market share. Market share is gained through competition. The marketing of the RPT is unavoidably a competitive wedge, and this is at direct odds with the shared camaraderie I mentioned above. With the marketing of the RPT comes exclusivity and false hierarchy, and just plain bull. The attendant ill will which this creates is accumulating, and when addressed, it is done so ineffectively or in a patronizing manner.

To be fair, any network will become a political entity, it's unavoidable...this PTG has a political component as would the "ideal" PTG. Politics brings on the unavoidable emotions of political wrangling. The question in the current PTG, for me, will be, will the exclusivity created by a council of RPTs, sustained by a council where non-RPTs have no representation or suffrage, ie where non-RPTs are effectively treated as children, continue to convince itself that the notion that RPT-hood confers some status and authority far exceeding the reality of the situation. Will a point be reached where the connections I treasure can more effectively be made outside the organization, rendering the PTG superfluous for me. This would be a very sad outcome for me, as much would be lost. I hope the RPT council in its infinite wisdom (ahem) can see this potentially crippling problem.

Jim Ialeggio
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#1863061 - 03/16/12 11:46 AM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
Bob Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/01/01
Posts: 3854
The cost to have a 2 day council must be tremendous. Mailing documents, room rental, hotel rooms, missed income by those who attend, chapter reimbursements, AV equipment, etc. In this economy, is the cost of council prudent?

Council does not fairly represent the members of the PTG. Chapters who do not send a delegate are not represented. Associates are not represented. The staff, who hear more about the PTG than anyone, are not represented.

The council system of decision making is too slow for this day and age.

Three reasons to dissolve council and give all members equal opportunity, regardless of title.

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#1863320 - 03/16/12 07:09 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
That Guy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/07/11
Posts: 399
Loc: Lincoln, NE
Sorry about that OperaTenor. I really didn't mean to be rude. I do think it would be an interesting post to ask. The reason I said something was that you directed your question to two RPT's and they're not supposed to be in the conversation. Anyway, I have tinnitus also but I tune with an ETD (although I tune the unison's by ear) so it's never been issue for me. A couple of years ago I had my hearing checked and it was excellent so maybe if I tuned by ear it wouldn't be an issue anyway. The only problem now is that when I pretend I can't hear my wife I have no excuse wink.
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Lincoln, NE
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#1863337 - 03/16/12 07:45 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
OperaTenor Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2381
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
No worries, TG. I have ~5% gone in the upper reaches in both ears. I was given Gentimycin(sp?) in 1992, and the tinnitus was a side-effect.

I'm a stodge, and I have thus far resisted using an ETD, although I did use the Cleartune app on my iPhone to check myself when I was learning the new method.

Still sitting on the fence about the PTG, but the MPT is looking kinda interesting...
_________________________
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#1863753 - 03/17/12 04:06 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
rysowers Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 2402
Loc: Olympia, WA
There has been another discussion taking place on the PTG list that is only open to members. We've been discussing the pros and cons of Associate members being full voting members and what effect it might have on the guild.

Some say that this idea is dangerous for the guild and could lead to a decline in standards.

Others feel that it would boost membership and enthusiasm. It is also felt that if voting rights were separated from credentialing that it would make it easier to add more credentials.

Other issues under discussion include the idea of opening up testing to non-members. The National Music Teachers Association does this very thing with their "Nationally Certified Teacher of Music (NCTM)" certification. Even non-members of MTNA can become NCTMs.

Would any non-members here be interested in taking the PTG exams if you could advertise it? Would you be willing to complete a minimal ammount of continuing education points and a modest annual fee in order to maintain your certification? This is how the MTNA does it. Here's a link to their re-certification rules:

http://www.mtnacertification.org/renewal/renewal-activities/

The fee for members to maintain their certification is $15 per year. For non-members it is $20.

There is some concern that if the exams are opened up to non-members that there would be less incentive to join. Do you think this is true?
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Olympia, WA
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#1863981 - 03/18/12 03:31 AM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1703
Loc: London, England
How usual is it for an examining body to insist on continuing paid membership in order to retain that qualification?

Speaking as someone who has never advertised, Can anybody, for example, advertise "fully qualified by the piano technicians guild" or, "former fully qualified member" without retaining membership?

In modern society, where it is considered crass to flaunt ones attainments, how effective is 'RPT' in getting a table in a good restaurant?
_________________________
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"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#1864069 - 03/18/12 10:22 AM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rxd]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2365
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Originally Posted By: rxd
How usual is it for an examining body to insist on continuing paid membership in order to retain that qualification?

Speaking as someone who has never advertised, Can anybody, for example, advertise "fully qualified by the piano technicians guild" or, "former fully qualified member" without retaining membership?

In modern society, where it is considered crass to flaunt ones attainments, how effective is 'RPT' in getting a table in a good restaurant?


I beleive modern society has gone in the other direction rxd. It was once crass or impolite to flaunt ones achievements, looked at as the same as bragging. Not so any more. In this day and age the motto "toot your own horn and toot it loudly" applies because the competition has lost that modicum of respect for peers to some degree, they will not readily toot it for you, as in the old days. Business managers are being taught the same thing now. This "advancement" still rubs some old timers the wrong way.


Edited by Emmery (03/18/12 10:23 AM)
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#1864085 - 03/18/12 10:59 AM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
Dave B Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/01/11
Posts: 1955
Loc: Philadelphia area
Jim, You may want to talk to Loren or Rick about the MPT.

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#1864093 - 03/18/12 11:14 AM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: Dave B]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2365
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Does anyone know what happened to the Philidelphia PTG chapters efforts back in 2006 to create a "Friend of the Guild" status in the PTG?

http://www.phillytuners.com/councilpage.html
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#1864095 - 03/18/12 11:17 AM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
That Guy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/07/11
Posts: 399
Loc: Lincoln, NE
Quote:
Some say that this idea is dangerous for the guild and could lead to a decline in standards.


I'm sure that that would happen because anything that deviates from "the standard", even if it is a good change, is considered "dangerous". For example, many techs, including myself, are using CA glue a lot especially to tighten up loose pins. Is this good or bad? There's lot's of disagreement there. This is certainly not acceptable by PTG standards so it would be considered "dangerous".
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Lincoln, NE
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#1864134 - 03/18/12 12:24 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: That Guy]
rysowers Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 2402
Loc: Olympia, WA
I want to step in hear briefly and clarify. I first read about CA in pinblocks in the mid 90's on the PTG pianotech list. It continues to come up from time to time and is endorsed by many RPT members.

The guild itself rarely takes a stand on a particular procedure or technique. The exams come the closest to this but leave a large amount uncovered. Experts within PTG disagree on things on a regular basis.

Originally Posted By: That Guy
Quote:
Some say that this idea is dangerous for the guild and could lead to a decline in standards.


I'm sure that that would happen because anything that deviates from "the standard", even if it is a good change, is considered "dangerous". For example, many techs, including myself, are using CA glue a lot especially to tighten up loose pins. Is this good or bad? There's lot's of disagreement there. This is certainly not acceptable by PTG standards so it would be considered "dangerous".
_________________________
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Pianova Piano Service
Olympia, WA
www.pianova.net

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#1864176 - 03/18/12 01:52 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: Emmery]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1703
Loc: London, England
Originally Posted By: Emmery
Originally Posted By: rxd
How usual is it for an examining body to insist on continuing paid membership in order to retain that qualification?

Speaking as someone who has never advertised, Can anybody, for example, advertise "fully qualified by the piano technicians guild" or, "former fully qualified member" without retaining membership?

In modern society, where it is considered crass to flaunt ones attainments, how effective is 'RPT' in getting a table in a good restaurant?


I beleive modern society has gone in the other direction rxd. It was once crass or impolite to flaunt ones achievements, looked at as the same as bragging. Not so any more. In this day and age the motto "toot your own horn and toot it loudly" applies because the competition has lost that modicum of respect for peers to some degree, they will not readily toot it for you, as in the old days. Business managers are being taught the same thing now. This "advancement" still rubs some old timers the wrong way.


I have seen glimmers of the old standards returning but I think, in general you are right.

There are those who respond to crass advertising but that's not the class of work I pursue.

I feel very fortunate to have spent the better part of my working life in the piano industry and always attached, however loosely, to a piano retail company.

Any family, these days, that purchases a real piano from new is a cut above the rest to begin with so my reference point is not the norm.

I have also always 'tithed' 10% or so of my work to other technicians in the area I happen to cover. Admittedly, I refer aspects of the job that I don't particularly enjoy!. This comes back 10 fold in so many different ways.
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#1864251 - 03/18/12 04:28 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
That Guy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/07/11
Posts: 399
Loc: Lincoln, NE
Quote:
The guild itself rarely takes a stand on a particular procedure or technique. The exams come the closest to this but leave a large amount uncovered. Experts within PTG disagree on things on a regular basis.


Thanks for the clarification. Yes, you're right. There's an RPT in our state that talked about the virtues of CA glue and then another that questions it every time it's brought up. Obviously he doesn't want to use it and that's okay. I use it all the time and have saved old pianos that otherwise would probably be in the land fill. I get a big kick out of that!

Along those lines, as I think about the PTG it's more the unspoken expectations that bother me (because of my own insecurity I'm sure) than the written out rules. There are certain things that in my mind make no difference how you do them just so you get them done. Example: I've done some mentoring with a local, very respected, RPT and as we were trying to do some aural tuning he began to correct me on my hammer technique. Even on an upright he holds the hammer like you do on a grand except at the 12 o'clock position. That seems very uncomfortable to me and besides that's not what is taught in the Reblitz book. He didn't believe me so since I had my book with me I showed him the photo. He was surprised and said that he wasn't taught that way but if I wanted to do it that way he guessed it was okay. Now - that has absolutely nothing to do with the PTG as an organization, it's really my problem. But it was various things similar to that that finally made me feel it just wasn't worth the angst to be a member. There's nothing the PTG can do about that, it's just personal interactions between people. Even in this forum I'm hesitant to talk about some of the techniques I use for fear that someone will say, "What? That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard! No self respecting piano tuner would ever do that!" Again, my own problem.
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"That Tuning Guy"
Lincoln, NE
www.thattuningguy.com

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#1864294 - 03/18/12 06:17 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
rbstewert Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/10/12
Posts: 51
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Scott, please keep posting your techniques. For every one person that says "that's dumb," there will be many (like me) that may find it useful. Or better yet, they might be able improve on that idea and come up with something even better.

My perception of the PTG (as a non-member): an organization with standards for proficiency and accomplishment in piano tuning and repair. My perception is that, as a group, they would like to increase the credibility of their services and members to the general public.

Are they interested in promoting new members? In my opinion, no. It's exactly as Harvey Roehl described in the Preface of Reblitz's book. "Some elements of the trade have tried to keep it mysterious so those active in the field would somehow best secure their own employment." It's like the world is flooded with piano tuners.

I may be totally wrong, but I believe the world is more flooded with out-of-tune and poorly serviced pianos.

Probably the biggest area for improvement, in my opinion, is the promotion/education for the need of piano maintenance. Everybody knows what piano "tuning" is. No one knows what regulation and voicing is. This may sound oversimplified, but if we go to the mall and ask 100 people, how many do you think will know? Another way to look at: let's put two identical pianos in the same mall, (no brand name on it, both tuned), one voiced & regulated nicely, the other NOT! Have the same 100 people play (or listen). Which piano do you think they will say is "better?"

Over the years, I've belonged to various professional organizations, none of which were free of politics or actions that pleased some and angered others. Thank you, Ryan, for presenting this topic. I believe somewhere in here will be at least one good idea that makes it to the top and effects change.

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#1864634 - 03/19/12 10:16 AM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
That Guy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/07/11
Posts: 399
Loc: Lincoln, NE
Thanks for your encouragement rb. I'll push ahead!
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"That Tuning Guy"
Lincoln, NE
www.thattuningguy.com

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#1864639 - 03/19/12 10:32 AM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: That Guy]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4919
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: That Guy
.....

Even in this forum I'm hesitant to talk about some of the techniques I use for fear that someone will say, "What? That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard! No self respecting piano tuner would ever do that!" Again, my own problem.


I feel your pain!
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1864649 - 03/19/12 10:48 AM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
That Guy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/07/11
Posts: 399
Loc: Lincoln, NE
Thanks Jeff. I had no idea there were others that felt the same.
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"That Tuning Guy"
Lincoln, NE
www.thattuningguy.com

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#1864656 - 03/19/12 11:01 AM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: UnrightTooner]
Keith D Kerman Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/03
Posts: 3314
Loc: Gaithersburg, MD (Washington D...
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
Originally Posted By: That Guy
.....

Even in this forum I'm hesitant to talk about some of the techniques I use for fear that someone will say, "What? That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard! No self respecting piano tuner would ever do that!" Again, my own problem.


I feel your pain!


I have definately observed technicians who were extremely aggressive and dismissive about criticizing techniques other than their own. Unfortunately, right or wrong, if someone comes accross as confidant enough with this attitude, it will definately have an influence on someone less sure of themselves, and it also certainly dissuades people from having productive communication if they are afraid that their experience will be rejected.
Of course, this is an unfortunate attitude that stems from insecurity and is not unique to piano technicians. It is a great attitude to have to help one remain ignorant!
_________________________
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PianoCraft
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#1865079 - 03/19/12 11:20 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
RPD Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/07/05
Posts: 961
Loc: Kalamazoo Michigan
Originally Posted By: rysowers


Would any non-members here be interested in taking the PTG exams if you could advertise it? Would you be willing to complete a minimal ammount of continuing education points and a modest annual fee in order to maintain your certification? This is how the MTNA does it.


Yes...for me anyway, it would be for just to measure against the industry my level, as well as just to learn. Sitting at the feet of those who have dedicated so much of their time to building the tests and standards would be fun and interesting.

It wouldn't matter to me regarding pass/fail, or any credential...I'd just be into it for the educational opportunity.

Cost wouldn't be an issue for me...1/2 hour of time with the right teacher can put a person to work for months!....and THAT's worth whatever it costs...

RPD
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#1866313 - 03/21/12 11:30 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: Dave B]
OperaTenor Offline
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Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2381
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
Originally Posted By: Dave B
Jim, You may want to talk to Loren or Rick about the MPT.


Thanks, I will.
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#1866320 - 03/21/12 11:36 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: That Guy]
OperaTenor Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2381
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
Originally Posted By: That Guy
Even on an upright he holds the hammer like you do on a grand except at the 12 o'clock position. That seems very uncomfortable to me and besides that's not what is taught in the Reblitz book. He didn't believe me so since I had my book with me I showed him the photo. He was surprised and said that he wasn't taught that way but if I wanted to do it that way he guessed it was okay.


I've never heard of that, either. My mentor, back in the 70's, taught me to hold it the same way it's illustrated in Reblitz's book.
_________________________
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#1866378 - 03/22/12 01:31 AM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: OperaTenor]
kpembrook Offline
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Registered: 04/06/10
Posts: 1308
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: OperaTenor
I've never heard of that, either. My mentor, back in the 70's, taught me to hold it the same way it's illustrated in Reblitz's book.


The dirty little secret being that whatever position you place the tuning hammer, and whatever tip or unhelpful force it may apply to the pin, that force will be exactly and perfectly cancelled by simply applying force in the opposite direction. Thus, unless you are a person who moves the pin from wherever it is to bullseye dead-on pitch in one single pull, what the orientation of the hammer is simply is not an issue.
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Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair

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#1866403 - 03/22/12 03:38 AM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: Keith D Kerman]
Tunewerk Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/26/11
Posts: 405
Loc: Boston, MA
Originally Posted By: Keith Kerman
I have definately observed technicians who were extremely aggressive and dismissive about criticizing techniques other than their own. Unfortunately, right or wrong, if someone comes across as confidant enough with this attitude, it will definately have an influence on someone less sure of themselves, and it also certainly dissuades people from having productive communication if they are afraid that their experience will be rejected.

Of course, this is an unfortunate attitude that stems from insecurity and is not unique to piano technicians. It is a great attitude to have to help one remain ignorant!


Beautifully said, Keith. Thanks.
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#1866633 - 03/22/12 02:15 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
That Guy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/07/11
Posts: 399
Loc: Lincoln, NE
Quote:
what the orientation of the hammer is simply is not an issue.


I agree Keith. My first mentor just said to find out what works for you and that's what I've done.

I've heard about the dangers of bending a pin if you have your hammer at the wrong angle and I've wondered about that. I would think it would take a ton of force to bend a pin but I suppose it's possible.
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Lincoln, NE
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#1866824 - 03/22/12 07:29 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: That Guy]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3194
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: That Guy
Quote:
what the orientation of the hammer is simply is not an issue.


I agree Keith. My first mentor just said to find out what works for you and that's what I've done.

I've heard about the dangers of bending a pin if you have your hammer at the wrong angle and I've wondered about that. I would think it would take a ton of force to bend a pin but I suppose it's possible.


I just looked at the last page and it seems PTG members are posting and it has gone off topic. Therefore, I will agree with the last three or so in saying that the position of the tuning hammer is irrelevant to tuning. However, it may be very relevant to your body! I would be more concerned about bending my back out of shape than I would the tuning pin.
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#1866927 - 03/22/12 11:21 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
That Guy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/07/11
Posts: 399
Loc: Lincoln, NE
Yes, I agree Bill. Thanks for the confirmation. Now that you mention it I try to be in a comfortable position, sit as much as I can and I don't have chronic back problems. I think a good hammer is helpful too. My Fujan carbon fiber has served me well.
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"That Tuning Guy"
Lincoln, NE
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#1866955 - 03/23/12 12:42 AM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
Weiyan Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/04/11
Posts: 769
Loc: Hong Kong
Fujan is really cool! I use it to tune ultra hard pins. My favorite babe is Cyberhammer.
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#1866974 - 03/23/12 02:01 AM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
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Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3194
Loc: Madison, WI USA
We all have to find the tuning hammer and technique that works best for us, personally. A novice will almost always try to "turn" tuning pins the way one would turn a guitar peg or a harpsichord tuning pin. I try to tell people that while one may accomplish a tuning in that way, the inevitable result, especially with very tight tuning pins is that it will create far more work to be done than an impact type technique.

Therefore, the impact type tuning hammer does work well for some people. However, I use an impact type technique with a tuning hammer made for me by Joe Goss. It is just heavy enough and just light enough to suit my needs. Most importantly, it has a "gear shift" type handle on it that I can use to slow pull if the circumstance requires it.

Primarily, I use it in the 2 o'clock position on both grands and verticals. However, in the high treble, I change the position as needed. Whatever that position may be is irrelevant to being able to manipulate the tuning pin and get the piano into tune. I simply can't imagine trying to tune a piano in some of the awkward and stressful positions that some people say is most correct.

I stand while tuning grands and simply spread my feet apart to lower myself. If, however, I am programming a tuning into my ETD, I usually sit. Sometimes I go between standing and sitting at various pianos to offer myself a change whether I have been standing too long or sitting too long.

A PTG Associate member who mostly does rebuilding but was interested in my techniques recently consulted with me. He asked at one point whether my techniques were oriented mostly towards ergonomics (human comfort). I thought about it for a moment, then answered, "Yes". A thousand or more tunings a year and each one tuned at least twice over simply requires techniques that do not wear out a person, cause more stress than necessary and certainly not injury such as back pain, tendinitis or Carpel Tunnel syndrome.

Back towards at least the topic: Certainly PTG, as an organization, does not endorse or recommend any type of tuning hammer or technique. PTG recognizes that there are diverse opinions,tools and techniques for any job. It presents classes at its annual Institute, Regional Seminars as well Chapter technical sessions where the instructor may offer his or her preferences and the audience may make of that material what they will.

PTG does evaluate feedback from these sessions and goes with what any committee may decide is worthwhile to continue or not. Sometimes, personalities and conflicts between members arise that may interfere with the best possible choices being made. Such are the limitations of any organization. I know this from my own experience and what I have seen and heard and read about occur.

No one can please or satisfy everybody all the time. If we tried to do that, it would dilute and diminish the strength we all have in what we do.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
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#1867297 - 03/23/12 03:18 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
That Guy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/07/11
Posts: 399
Loc: Lincoln, NE
Again, thanks Bill. For years I've had this guilty feeling every time I have my hammer not in the "proper" position. Today when I was tuning I had no guilt. It feels good.

Now that I think about it most of the issues I've had with the PTG are on a local level. Kinda pains me to say that. There's some good people but most of those that are RPT's have an elitist attitude. One of our most respected members is working towards associates becoming RPT's, which is perfectly fine, but his main goal is that we're all on the same page. I'm not sure what he means but I take it that it means that we all need to tune the same way and be little clones. Where's the growth in that? I want to try new things and think outside of the box. I really don't like the phrase, "Well, we never did it that way in the past." So what? He was also concerned that tunings (ETD & aural) were being stretched too much. I asked him why and he didn't answer me. This concern came after he had attended Bernhard Stoppers session on tuning his temperment aurally. I have the Tunic OnlyPure program so I think he was talking to me.
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"That Tuning Guy"
Lincoln, NE
www.thattuningguy.com

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#1867321 - 03/23/12 04:05 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: That Guy]
jim ialeggio Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/03/05
Posts: 621
Loc: shirley, MA
Originally Posted By: That Guy
He was also concerned that tunings (ETD & aural) were being stretched too much. I asked him why and he didn't answer me. This concern came after he had attended Bernhard Stoppers session on tuning his temperment aurally. I have the Tunic OnlyPure program so I think he was talking to me.


This is an interesting point, and one that I wonder about. RPTs I know in my area are quite friendly and inclusive. In Boston, for example, the Associates are listed on the web site.

But many of the RPT's and I would say especially the examiners in this area don't seem to get the musicality of the stretch you are referring to.

Maybe Bill could respond to this, since his tunings are well stretched, and he feels strongly about bringing new RPT's on board. I get the sense that if I for some unforseen reason decided to take the RPT tests, I would have to tune in a fashion which I consider unmusical, just to pass the exam. Not sure I want to waste the energy practicing something I activily don't like to listen to or play.

Jim Ialeggio
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#1867325 - 03/23/12 04:17 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
Emmery Offline
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Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2365
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Jim, there are plenty of reasons that can be found why a test type ET tuning sounds bad or even "unmusical" and they all have to do with the tuner and what they did, not the temperament. The day that people regularly complain about a well executed ET not being musical has not arrived and I think that most people in general don't care enough to make it so in the future. Most of the tuners and musicians don't.
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#1867390 - 03/23/12 06:36 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: jim ialeggio]
Tunewerk Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/26/11
Posts: 405
Loc: Boston, MA
I agree with Jim, strongly, that the RPT tuning exam produces an unmusical tuning. From a scientific basis, I would even call it incorrect.

It is strict ET, true - to a certain standard. And it is a clean rubric to determine if a tuner can listen to beats and tune accurately using them. However, I don't believe it necessarily produces musical technicians who can tune well.

Personally, I had to change my style to execute the exam tuning. I used a completely different aural temperament and stretch technique, knowing what the exam was looking for. I would hope that I never have to do it again because it would negatively impact the sensibilities I have developed since the exam.

The logical - not feeling - basis to this is that these tunings are machine tunings, corrected by ear. The SAT and RCT use the 4th partial to align midrange frequencies and define ET by evenly progressing RBIs.

There are many different ways to define an ET, by which partials are favored and the stretch of the alignment. All of them can be 'correct' by a given standard, but I would argue none of them would consider the full picture of what being in-tune means.
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#1867472 - 03/23/12 09:16 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: jim ialeggio]
kpembrook Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/10
Posts: 1308
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: jim ialeggio
I get the sense that if I for some unforseen reason decided to take the RPT tests, I would have to tune in a fashion which I consider unmusical, just to pass the exam. Not sure I want to waste the energy practicing something I activily don't like to listen to or play.
Jim Ialeggio


This points up an area where we PTG members apparently have not communicated clearly enough about the exam. The "model" tuning that is done on the test piano is done by ear -- or primarily by ear with ear trumping ETD readings. Rather than being just an implementation of one person's opinion, it is a tuning that represents the consensus of several competent tuners that that particular piano is tuned the best that it can be. THEN . . .

That tuning is recorded on an ETD so that it can be reduplicated and so that deviation can be scored. AFTER THAT ...

The piano is de-tuned by a given amount that still leaves it stable -- at which time it is then made available to the examinee for the test.

I won't go through the steps of the actual testing procedure because I don't have them in my head, but then, after the examinee is finished it is scored primarily by reference to deviation from the "consensus tuning". It is possible to get up to 20 notes off by one cent (clearly audible) and still pass! But that's not all. It is recognized that there can be different approaches to being "in tune" and if the examinee can demonstrate that his/her tuning of a particular note is consistent with a reasonable whole it can still be scored as acceptable!

I'm not trying to take this thread off topic with this explanation. Rather I want to get pack to non-member perceptions with these specific questions:

1) Were you aware of the nature of the tuning exam as described above?
2) If you had a different understanding of the exam procedure, what was the source of that (mis-) information?
3) Have you looked into the examination procedure yourself -- or, for that matter, ever looked at the information available on the PTG website?

Please keep the questions and comments coming. I'm sure that no organization can be everything to everyone. But at least we can be clear in communicating what we want it to be about.
_________________________
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Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair

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#1867515 - 03/23/12 10:48 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: kpembrook]
RonTuner Online   content
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Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 1652
Loc: Chicagoland
Originally Posted By: kpembrook

This points up an area where we PTG members apparently have not communicated clearly enough about the exam. The "model" tuning that is done on the test piano is done by ear -- or primarily by ear with ear trumping ETD readings. Rather than being just an implementation of one person's opinion, it is a tuning that represents the consensus of several competent tuners that that particular piano is tuned the best that it can be. THEN . . .


I don't think this is accurate - and points out the misconception held by many RPTs and associates. The exam is that - a specific published targeted tuning. For example, the top octave is to be a strict 2:1 octave match. This tuning has little to do with tuning a piano "the best that it can be."

Ron Koval
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#1867523 - 03/23/12 11:03 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: RonTuner]
kpembrook Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/10
Posts: 1308
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: RonTuner
Originally Posted By: kpembrook

This points up an area where we PTG members apparently have not communicated clearly enough about the exam. The "model" tuning that is done on the test piano is done by ear -- or primarily by ear with ear trumping ETD readings. Rather than being just an implementation of one person's opinion, it is a tuning that represents the consensus of several competent tuners that that particular piano is tuned the best that it can be. THEN . . .


I don't think this is accurate - and points out the misconception held by many RPTs and associates. The exam is that - a specific published targeted tuning. For example, the top octave is to be a strict 2:1 octave match. This tuning has little to do with tuning a piano "the best that it can be."

Ron Koval


I'm not a CTE -- although I have participated in a CTE "training" session. But here's the quote from the official ptg.org website:

Tuning Exam

The RPT Tuning Exam tests your skills in tuning; your examiners will compare your tuning note by note to a "master tuning." In preparation for exam day, a committee of three or more RPTs, under the direction of a Certified Tuning Examiner (CTE), tunes a good quality grand piano at least 5'9" in length until all agree that the tuning is optimal. They then use an electronic tuning device to measure the tuning precisely, and make a record of each note and its pitch measurement on a specified partial. This record is the "master tuning" for this piano. Examiners will likewise measure your tuning of the same piano, and then, by means of a computer or handscoring program, pitch-correct and compare it to the master tuning. When the measurement of a given note of your tuning differs from the master tuning by more than the tolerance allowed after correction for overall pitch, the CTE will record the appropriate penalty points on the scoreform as indicated by the scoring program. Then, listening to intervals along with you as directed by the CTE, examiners will aurally verify some or all of these points and thus confirm the scoring. If examiners believe that a note in question cannot be improved, the CTE may cross off the penalty point for that note.


Note that the "master tuning" is an "optimal" tuning as determined by at least 3 RPTs. It is definitely not an implementation of any pre-digested formula for tuning any given note (other than a picky insistence on A-440 precision).

Also note that any discrepancy is evaluated with the examinee. There is no mysterious "well, we just didn't like that" kind of thing where the examinee doesn't know clearly what the discrepancy was. And, although it says that final determination is in the discretion of the examiners, the reality is that in the large majority of cases, the examinee also recognizes that the note could have been tuned better. In any event, final determination of whether a discrepancy from the "master tuning" is finally to be counted as a penalty is determined by consensus of real people using real ears and listening to the actual result -- not any pre-defined recipe or arbitrary machine output.
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Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair

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#1867529 - 03/23/12 11:22 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
rbstewert Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/10/12
Posts: 51
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Question for CTE's: Have you ever had someone do a tuning that sounded pretty good, but did not meet the criteria for this recorded "master tuning?" Is it possible?

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#1867543 - 03/24/12 12:10 AM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
rysowers Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 2402
Loc: Olympia, WA
The criteria for the highest octave of the piano is now "clean sounding single octaves", as opposed to strict 2:1 octaves. That may sound like splitting hairs but one is defining the octave by sound and the other by a strict ratio.

I have a record of a master tuned Steinway B used for exams that has a cents offset of 34.6 cents at note B7 (the highest used for the exam). The sample Steinway D tuning that is included with Tunelab has a cents offset of 30.4 cents.

There seems to be a misconception about the tuning exam being a "flat" (as in straight line) tuning with very little stretch.

To say the tuning exam creates an "unmusical" tuning strikes me as hyperbole. That being said, since we are talking about PTG perceptions this is interesting information to hear.

Tunewerk: do you have real experience listening to a master tuning, or are you basing this on what you have heard about the tuning exam?



Edited by rysowers (03/24/12 12:11 AM)
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#1867558 - 03/24/12 12:56 AM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: kpembrook]
Tunewerk Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/26/11
Posts: 405
Loc: Boston, MA
I do have real experience listening to master tunings.

Originally Posted By: kpembrook
Note that the "master tuning" is an "optimal" tuning as determined by at least 3 RPTs. It is definitely not an implementation of any pre-digested formula for tuning any given note (other than a picky insistence on A-440 precision).

..the reality is that in the large majority of cases, the examinee also recognizes that the note could have been tuned better.


I would hesitate to call the master tuning an optimal tuning, but it is an extremely precise, agreed upon version of ET, using several pairs of ears and a machine.

Every tuning is the implementation of some formula, whether using the large capacity of the human brain, or the limited sight of a machine equipped with bandpass filters, statistical performance data, and stretch algorithms.

The master tuning is a relatively conservative, machine based tuning. Corrections are defined as optimal within that framework. The examinee will agree with corrections because of the framework surrounding them.
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#1867590 - 03/24/12 04:06 AM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
Dave B Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/01/11
Posts: 1955
Loc: Philadelphia area
Was tested in the new system some 20+yrs ago when they first started using the SAT measurements to score the test. The tolerances seemed to me to be wide enough to allow for any tuning style.

The test is mechanical in that they are not judging the beauty or artistry of the testing technician. This makes sense to me because it gives the testing committee much more than their personal preferences to judge by. I think the testing committee welcomed the work of Al Sanderson in this process. The whole piano is strip muted so that only one string per note is measured. And then only the Unisons in the middle two or three octaves are measured. There is one big stark reality at the beginning of the test. Your on your own to find A440.

Any experienced tech will pass the test. The question I have is: Is it worth $360.00???

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#1867654 - 03/24/12 09:06 AM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
RestorerPhil Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/26/12
Posts: 212
Loc: Georgia, USA
Many moons ago I decided to take the PTG tests. The active chapter was a couple of hours drive away, so involvement there was expensive in that it gobbled up my work time.

I went to a few meetings, enjoyed them. Soon thereafter I asked to get some preliminary coaching from some of the leaders and respected techs in that chapter. I used up an entire day at two different times, but received no personal instruction, comment, or attention. On one of the occasions I was put on a Steinway (new on sales floor) that had tuning pins so tight that I was afraid that I would permanently twist the grain of the metal just to move the pins in the block. After wrestling with it for a while, the only comment I got from the tech was, "I think you could go ahead and take the test." This overall experience left me really chapped. (By the way, the instructional session of the evening was on one of those Steinways. The teacher was looking at his inch pounds in amazement. He should have used an automotive torque wrench on that one!)

Weeks later, by the time of the test I had a really bad "taste in my mouth" over the whole deal. On test day, a guy who was checking tuning forks told me that mine was off a little. I forget which direction it was allegedly off, but I decided to try to compensate on the setting of the A440 seventeenth check. That was a mistake. There was no second chance. I wasn't passed because of that. Looking back, I suppose that my bigger mistake was not saying anything about why I had set in deliberately “off,” but given the experiences that had come before I was just boiling by that point and was simply ready to walk. Tuning fork guy convinced me to go ahead and take the rest of the tuning test (even though you know you "won't pass because of the A440 portion").

From these experiences I did learn that I was wasting my time to think that I was going to get some help - at least at that time at that chapter. From the test itself, I learned that I should smooth my temperament some, even though it had been judged passable. My pin-setting and unison judgment was amazing to the examiners. It was as if they thought, “ He can’t set A440, but he can tune rock solid?! Huh?!”

Soooo...
Since PTG had not mattered at all in the many years I had already been working, and since I had invested very valuable time for what someone could have told me with far less expense and effort on my part, I went back home, learned some of Defebaugh and other temperament tricks to improve my temperament, and have not missed the PTG at all. I have considered going to a convention a time or two for the sake of instructional sessions, but the cost factor or timing seems to always get in the way.

Good overall organization. Baaad experience. No sympathy requested.
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#1867667 - 03/24/12 10:07 AM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2546
Loc: PA
Thing is, no one encounters a piano in the field that just happens to be a good quality grand that has been detuned alternating flat and sharp.

A realistic test that techs face every day in the field would be a Whitney spinet that hasn't been tuned since 1978. It's 1 whole step flat, even more in the treble. You have two hours to put it in tune and at A440. That's the test techs face every day!
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#1867698 - 03/24/12 11:51 AM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
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Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
Regarding the tuning test: Another point to be made, that has already been made above is pitch. So what if the pitch of the piano does not match "precisely" or, close enough to A/440? The program can compensate for that and in my opinion, should. I bring that up because 99% of all tuners "float the pitch" throughout the year allowing for a more stable tuning. Therefore, floating pitch is not putting it exactly on A/440 anyway.... If the person can tune the rest of the piano and do a very good job passing the remainder of the exam, compensation then needs to be made for that one thing...pitch...
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#1867727 - 03/24/12 01:03 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
rysowers Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 2402
Loc: Olympia, WA
One thing that is clear to me is that different chapters of the Guild can have completely different personalities! I talked to one technicians who lived between two chapters. At first he went to the bigger one (probably around 50 members) and was surprised that nobody came and said hi to him, and he felt like he basically got the cold shoulder.

Then he went to another somewhat smaller (35 members) chapter that was a little further to drive and was surprised by the difference: a warm welcome and introduction to the group and much looked for support. Within a few years he was chapter President!

The PTG is a very complex organization with no shortage of big egos. There are also some amazing people who give a tremendous amount without seeking anything in return. There are plenty of eccentrics (like you would expect in this type of work) and there are also a good number of suits. It brings people together from the extreme left and right of politics, and folks of all types of religious persuasion.

Leadership can be very tough in an organization like this. We are all so independently minded - most of us are used to not having a boss or manager. So how do you please such a group? The fact is you don't!
_________________________
Ryan Sowers,
Pianova Piano Service
Olympia, WA
www.pianova.net

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#1867745 - 03/24/12 01:30 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
rysowers Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 2402
Loc: Olympia, WA
Since this thread may be running itself out soon, I thought I'd take some time and go through the posts and create a synopsis of peoples comments.

Some of these are off the thread, and some come from individuals who contacted me privately.

1. PTG is a networking and support group, but their members are not necessarily better qualified than non-members.

2. The PTG may be one way to get start getting names of technicians in a new geographic area, but reputation is more important than membership

3. Some people drop out because they are not able to attend the chapter meetings which makes the dues not seem worth it.

4. Some resent the "us vs. them" mentality of some of the members.

5. Since many technicians are independent types who enjoy solitary work, PTG is not attractive since its main benefit is the socialization with other technicians at meetings and conferences.

6. Some of the political squabbles are a turn off.

7. The dues can be prohibitive for younger technicians.

8. Some resent the way that Associate members are sometimes talked down to.

9. Some resent that the PTG website only lists RPTs. Since Associates pay the same dues, they should be listed - even if they are on a different list than the associates.

10. Some resent that you have to pay dues in order to maintain RPT status. It is compared to a university requiring a yearly fee in order to maintain your degree.

11. Some experienced technicians don't want to have to prove themselves to the PTG by taking the exams.

12. (from a member) Some feel the council system of governance is inefficient and slow.

13. Some feel the PTG is too focused on promoting RPTs instead of promoting piano in the community.

14. Some enjoyed membership previously, but because of a life change they let their dues lapse. They resent having to retake all the tests again, and feel it is not worth it.

15. Some feel that PTG is an excellent organization to help train beginning techs and tuners.

16. Some feel that machine tuners are in general looked down upon by the PTG. Tuning a temperament by ear is an unreasonable requirement considering the accuracy of ETD's

17. Some have found PTG to be a very welcoming and warm organization, even to non-members

18. Some have experienced luke-warm reception from local chapters.

19. Some people just don’t like meetings!

20. Some feel that PTG turns a blind eye to unethical practices by some of the RPT technicians. Yet it claims to be upholding ethics.

21. Some resent that the organization advertises against non-RPTs by encouraging the public to only use RPT technicians.

22. Some applaud the guild for promoting basic ear tuning skills, others think it is unreasonable.

23. Some think that the guilds policy of grandfathering in technicians that became registered before the modern tuning exam is flawed.

24. The fact that recertification is not required is viewed by some as a serious problem, especially since older technicians can start having hearing problems that can interfere with accurate work.

25. Some argue that the guilds mission is too focused on itself and it should have some mention of keeping client’s best interest in mind.

26. Some see the guild as an excellent way to get in touch with mentors.

27. PTG has a lot to offer beginning and intermediate techs, but very little for high-level technicians.
_________________________
Ryan Sowers,
Pianova Piano Service
Olympia, WA
www.pianova.net

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#1867753 - 03/24/12 02:01 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
That Guy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/07/11
Posts: 399
Loc: Lincoln, NE
Quote:
Thing is, no one encounters a piano in the field that just happens to be a good quality grand that has been detuned alternating flat and sharp.

A realistic test that techs face every day in the field would be a Whitney spinet that hasn't been tuned since 1978. It's 1 whole step flat, even more in the treble. You have two hours to put it in tune and at A440. That's the test techs face every day!


Yes, yes Loren! Now that really tests your skills. Add in a couple strings that break and some sweat running down your face and you've got a real test.
_________________________
Scott Kerns
"That Tuning Guy"
Lincoln, NE
www.thattuningguy.com

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#1867755 - 03/24/12 02:08 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
That Guy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/07/11
Posts: 399
Loc: Lincoln, NE
Good summary Ryan. You asked, listened and we were heard. That's nice. It's always great to be heard. I don't know what you'll do, if anything, with the information but I think it was a profitable exercise.

Thank You
_________________________
Scott Kerns
"That Tuning Guy"
Lincoln, NE
www.thattuningguy.com

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#1867773 - 03/24/12 03:15 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2546
Loc: PA
Very good list, Ryan!
_________________________
DiGiorgi Piano Service (1984-2013)
http://www.digiorgipiano.com

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#1867774 - 03/24/12 03:18 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: That Guy]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2546
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: That Guy
Quote:
Thing is, no one encounters a piano in the field that just happens to be a good quality grand that has been detuned alternating flat and sharp.

A realistic test that techs face every day in the field would be a Whitney spinet that hasn't been tuned since 1978. It's 1 whole step flat, even more in the treble. You have two hours to put it in tune and at A440. That's the test techs face every day!


Yes, yes Loren! Now that really tests your skills. Add in a couple strings that break and some sweat running down your face and you've got a real test.


Seriously! And add to that the necessary diplomatic and educational tools the tech has to have to explain the need for the pitch correction, why it requires an extra charge, and then have the skills to actually do it. THAT'S a test!
_________________________
DiGiorgi Piano Service (1984-2013)
http://www.digiorgipiano.com

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#1867913 - 03/24/12 09:41 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: Loren D]
Weiyan Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/04/11
Posts: 769
Loc: Hong Kong
Originally Posted By: Loren D
Thing is, no one encounters a piano in the field that just happens to be a good quality grand that has been detuned alternating flat and sharp.

A realistic test that techs face every day in the field would be a Whitney spinet that hasn't been tuned since 1978. It's 1 whole step flat, even more in the treble. You have two hours to put it in tune and at A440. That's the test techs face every day!


Yes Loren.

Piano with irregular pin tightness increased difficulty. I had experience an old Pear River, some pins raise 50 cents with moderate throw, some pins need to turn with the Fujan, with well coordinated back muscle, shoulder muscle and etc.

Exam is an interesting social phenomenon. Everyone knows exam has not guarantee on capability, everyone like to judge by certificates.

Sorry for distract this great thread.
_________________________
Fake Book player
Ragtime beginner
http://weiyanwo.wordpress.com

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#1868059 - 03/25/12 05:16 AM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: Tunewerk]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
Originally Posted By: Tunewerk

The master tuning is a relatively conservative, machine based tuning.[..]


I'm sorry, but the latter part is simply not true. The ETD is solely used for recording the pitches. Even though you might end up somewhere close to something that some ETD setting might produce, the master tuning cannot be called "machine based".

Regarding the master tuning as a ruler in the testing situation, it is not set in stone. I agree that arguing your own tuning against the master tuning in the presence of three authorities/examiners might be challenging, but it can be done - I know that from personal experience smile

The master tuning I was faced with was close to what I would tune for a close-mic recording session in the studio, except for the outer octaves which were narrower than I like. I still, however, tuned much like I preferred (which made me lose some points there) but the "deviation range" is quite forgiving up/down there, so it's really not a big problem smile

What I really try to say is that you can tune musically in the testing situation and pass.
_________________________
Patrick Wingren, RPT

Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.

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#1868075 - 03/25/12 07:16 AM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2546
Loc: PA
Another situation techs run into: last night I had to tune for a Texas Tenors concert at a nearby college. Their sound check was to be over at 5:00 and doors would open at 7:00 for the 7:30 concert. I thought, no sweat, I have a good 2 hours to spend here to really make the piano sing. Unfortunately, schedules got behind and sound check didn't end until 5:55, so now I only had an hour. Couple that with the fact that A4 was hovering around 10 cents flat, and now I only had an hour to bring it to a solid 440, and that was while the lights were alternating between different colors and no light at all as the tech crew was going through the lighting sequence.

Really, what we deal with in the field regularly is a more rigorous and daunting test than any controlled environment test. And passing these field tests on a daily basis, with our clients acting as our examinees, are THE most important tests we take.

*edited for a few pre-caffeine typos.* smile


Edited by Loren D (03/25/12 07:16 AM)
_________________________
DiGiorgi Piano Service (1984-2013)
http://www.digiorgipiano.com

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#1868308 - 03/25/12 03:35 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
rysowers Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 2402
Loc: Olympia, WA
The exam is designed largely around the principle of fairness and consistency. The idea is that each examinee will get more or less the same exam so that people can't decry that their exam was harder than another person (although this still happens!).

The reality is that the exam is a tuning situation under more or less ideal circumstances: usually a 6' piano, Yamaha, Kawai, or Steinway - at pitch, detuned in such a way to equalize tension. False beats are taken into consideration.

Like Patrick says, there is room for a certain amount of preference in the exam. For instance, in the high treble there is a 6 cents tolerance. Keep in mind in that area of the piano one cent will equal more than one beat, so that is a generous tolerance. That's why it is rare for people to fail the high treble, even if they use quite a bit of stretch.

I occasionally have had the pleasure of working with Steve Brady, and sometimes fill in for his tunings at the Governor's Mansion concerts. I can tell you his tunings are very similar to a top notch exam tuning. Since he is currently the head technician for the Aspen Music Festival, to claim that this style of tuning is "unmusical" sounds absurd to me.

I challenge those who claim this to record their tunings and post them for our analysis so we can know what kind of stretch they are talking about.

Personally I have explored both ends of the spectrum. When I was working with Jessica Williams, I found that I needed to stretch more than I was normally comfortable. However I went over the limit one time with her and it really stressed her out.

Now, in my 20th year of tuning study, I find myself back to being a bit more conservative. This was inspired by a presentation by Don Mannino last year. I don't think anyone complains about Don's tunings being "unmusical".




Edited by rysowers (03/25/12 03:38 PM)
_________________________
Ryan Sowers,
Pianova Piano Service
Olympia, WA
www.pianova.net

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#1868378 - 03/25/12 06:43 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
That Guy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/07/11
Posts: 399
Loc: Lincoln, NE
All the talk about the tuning test is again one of the reasons I quit the PTG and why I certainly would never be tested. I don't need any more stress in my life. I have plenty on my plate and plenty of happy customers. I would constantly read in the Journal about different perceptions, opinions, methods, blah, blah, blah and in the end no one seems to agree anyway. So, I will continue to do things the way I want to do them unless somehow somewhere I am convinced that I should do otherwise.

As I've read over what I just wrote, I know it sounds snotty but it's all very frustrating to me. I don't know any other way to put it. Maybe it shouldn't frustrate me but it does. There is so much good stuff in the PTG and I really do appreciate that it's there but it feels like you can't just be happy that you have work and enjoy making pianos sound better.
_________________________
Scott Kerns
"That Tuning Guy"
Lincoln, NE
www.thattuningguy.com

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#1868392 - 03/25/12 07:18 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2546
Loc: PA
In all honesty, I have nothing against the Guild. I just like being in this profession where I'm privileged to know a bunch of great techs and people, whether they're in the Guild or not. smile
_________________________
DiGiorgi Piano Service (1984-2013)
http://www.digiorgipiano.com

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#1868425 - 03/25/12 08:33 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: Loren D]
Weiyan Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/04/11
Posts: 769
Loc: Hong Kong
Originally Posted By: Loren D
Another situation techs run into: last night I had to tune for a Texas Tenors concert at a nearby college. Their sound check was to be over at 5:00 and doors would open at 7:00 for the 7:30 concert. I thought, no sweat, I have a good 2 hours to spend here to really make the piano sing. Unfortunately, schedules got behind and sound check didn't end until 5:55, so now I only had an hour. Couple that with the fact that A4 was hovering around 10 cents flat, and now I only had an hour to bring it to a solid 440, and that was while the lights were alternating between different colors and no light at all as the tech crew was going through the lighting sequence.

Really, what we deal with in the field regularly is a more rigorous and daunting test than any controlled environment test. And passing these field tests on a daily basis, with our clients acting as our examinees, are THE most important tests we take.

*edited for a few pre-caffeine typos.* smile

Thank you!
I always feel guilty for take more than two hour to raise for 15 cents.

I personally don't against PTG. One thing disappointed is I don't know why I felt only RPT is good tuner. From this tread, I found good tuners who are not always a RPT.
_________________________
Fake Book player
Ragtime beginner
http://weiyanwo.wordpress.com

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#1868508 - 03/25/12 11:59 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: Loren D]
RPD Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/07/05
Posts: 961
Loc: Kalamazoo Michigan
Originally Posted By: Loren D
In all honesty, I have nothing against the Guild. I just like being in this profession where I'm privileged to know a bunch of great techs and people, whether they're in the Guild or not. smile


That says it all...ditto here...

Rick
_________________________
MPT(Master Piano Technicians of America)
Member AMICA (Automated Musical Instruments Collector's Association)
(Subscriber PTG Journal)
Piano-Tuner-Rebuilder/Musician www.actionpianoservice.com

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#1868524 - 03/26/12 12:37 AM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1707
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
When I started a couple of years ago I had a lot of help from two local guild members here (both CTE's). Initially I found it instructive to try to pass the RPT tuning exam by dry runs at home, scoring myself against tunelab. I then decided to join as associate member for several reasons.

One is that by paying the yearly dues I am happy to support the guild. It's not much and I'm sure the money is not spent on large bonuses for PTG executives but on more useful things.

Another is that when I'm ready I could take the RPT test. I sort of feel that it should be obliged by law that you can only operate as piano technician if you are properly certified. Otherwise it is sort of like practicing medicine without a license. This is not implying at all that non RPT's are not qualified. I don't think anyone would doubt that some prominent non PTG posters here would, if forced, pass the test easily while talking on the phone.

I've been only to one local chapter meeting as they are usually too far away for me. Interestingly everyone here seems to use the Reyburn tuner, with only 2 purely aural tuners.

Just my subjective point of view...

Kees

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#1868527 - 03/26/12 01:05 AM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
Weiyan Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/04/11
Posts: 769
Loc: Hong Kong
I am using Verituner.

Oblige by law to have a certificate to tune piano!!!

Cool idea. There should be certificate to play cocktail piano, jazz piano, blues, classic and etc too.
_________________________
Fake Book player
Ragtime beginner
http://weiyanwo.wordpress.com

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#1868664 - 03/26/12 10:31 AM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
That Guy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/07/11
Posts: 399
Loc: Lincoln, NE
Quote:
I sort of feel that it should be obliged by law that you can only operate as piano technician if you are properly certified. Otherwise it is sort of like practicing medicine without a license.


I think some PTG people would really like this too. With all due respect I'm very much against it. I Feel that the comparison to practicing medicine is flawed. A piano is not a person. If I make a mistake no one dies. Also, I would hate to see more government regulation.
_________________________
Scott Kerns
"That Tuning Guy"
Lincoln, NE
www.thattuningguy.com

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#1868790 - 03/26/12 02:08 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2365
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
The gubmint is no better at selecting the wheat from the chaff then the public is most of the time. They just simply put an exhorbitant cost on the process.
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#1868802 - 03/26/12 02:27 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: That Guy]
Keith D Kerman Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/03
Posts: 3314
Loc: Gaithersburg, MD (Washington D...
Originally Posted By: That Guy
Quote:
I sort of feel that it should be obliged by law that you can only operate as piano technician if you are properly certified. Otherwise it is sort of like practicing medicine without a license.


I think some PTG people would really like this too. With all due respect I'm very much against it. I Feel that the comparison to practicing medicine is flawed. A piano is not a person. If I make a mistake no one dies. Also, I would hate to see more government regulation.


Do auto mechanics need some kind of legal certification or license? How about contractors? Plumbers? Electricians? Roofers?

I think the piano technology arena is too small for it to ever have any type of standards overseen by the Government, so this is all very hypothetical.
_________________________
Keith D Kerman
PianoCraft
Rebuilding & Sales of vintage and pre-owned Steinway and Mason & Hamlin
New Steingraeber, Estonia, Charles R. Walter, Brodmann, Feurich
www.pianocraft.net
http://www.youtube.com/user/pianocraftchannel/videos

keith@pianocraft.net 888-840-5460

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#1868809 - 03/26/12 02:33 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4919
Loc: Bradford County, PA
I am all for enforced standards in tuning, as long as it is ET! wink
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1868811 - 03/26/12 02:34 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21431
Loc: Oakland
Yes, in California, auto mechanics and contractors of several varieties need licenses. Movers do, so you need one to move pianos. However, there are many professions which are not licensed. One can do work that requires a license if the amount of money is small, under $400 I believe.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#1868817 - 03/26/12 02:58 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
Bob Newbie Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/02/06
Posts: 1549
are PTG members "licensed, bonded and insured"? you see this nowadays on most ads for
building contractors,plumbers, electricians etc, I guess its like the old "good housekeeping seal" I don't think they use that anymore.. smile

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#1868841 - 03/26/12 03:59 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: Bob Newbie]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
No, we are not "licensed, bonded and insured." At least not through the PTG. wink We have to do that on our own as individuals if we want it, but it is not a requirement here in Michigan at least.
_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#1868849 - 03/26/12 04:14 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: UnrightTooner]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3194
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
I am all for enforced standards in tuning, as long as it is ET! wink


That is one thing that PTG is totally against and wishes to avoid if at all possible.

There is no connection between the standards of the tuning exam and any requirement or even recommendation by PTG that any piano at any time for and circumstance be tuned in ET or that its members, RPT or Associates should try to mimic in any way the standards of the tuning exam in practice.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1868855 - 03/26/12 04:23 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: Bob Newbie]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3194
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: Bob Newbie
are PTG members "licensed, bonded and insured"? you see this nowadays on most ads for
building contractors,plumbers, electricians etc, I guess its like the old "good housekeeping seal" I don't think they use that anymore.. smile


As Jer, said, PTG does not involve itself in that. However, any responsible person in business does carry such insurance. After all, if we cause damage either to the piano or something else in the course of our work, we are liable for it under the law. Sometimes, the entities we work for may require proof of such insurance.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1868923 - 03/26/12 07:04 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: That Guy]
kpembrook Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/10
Posts: 1308
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: That Guy
Quote:
I sort of feel that it should be obliged by law that you can only operate as piano technician if you are properly certified. Otherwise it is sort of like practicing medicine without a license.


I think some PTG people would really like this too. With all due respect I'm very much against it. I Feel that the comparison to practicing medicine is flawed. A piano is not a person. If I make a mistake no one dies. Also, I would hate to see more government regulation.


Actually, it is probably organizations like PTG that is saving all the "independents" from governmental licensing requirements. You see, there has been talk of that by folk who think about regulating people that work on other people's stuff (real estate brokers, electricians, plumbers, to name a few). It is the presence of some kind of self-regulation process that keeps the busybodies from imposing governmental regulation requirements.

I doubt that there is anyone in PTG who wants governmental regulation. If such a thing were ever to come down the pike, it would be PTG that would be representing the interests of the trade. With the independents, it would be a classic case of "divide and conquer".
_________________________
Keith Akins, RPT
USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings
Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair

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#1868961 - 03/26/12 08:54 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
Weiyan Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/04/11
Posts: 769
Loc: Hong Kong
Gov't license has certain protection to bad tuners, like the medical doctor. If he has licence, follow procedure strictly, the patient die, the docto has not liability.

If tuner need a licence, then ETD also need certificate. If client complain about tuning, just reply:"I am using certified ETD, following legal tuning procedure strictly. You have right to not satisfy, but you can not judge my service."

Very cool.
_________________________
Fake Book player
Ragtime beginner
http://weiyanwo.wordpress.com

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#1868964 - 03/26/12 08:57 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
That Guy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/07/11
Posts: 399
Loc: Lincoln, NE
That's good to hear Keith. I'm glad you think I'm wrong!
_________________________
Scott Kerns
"That Tuning Guy"
Lincoln, NE
www.thattuningguy.com

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#1869439 - 03/27/12 09:03 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
Bob Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/01/01
Posts: 3854
Could you imagine if some states licensed tuners and some didn't - and there were different tests for each state, and for those techs living in a border area needing licenses for two or three different states? What an mess that would be. I don't think anyone need worry about that anytime soon.

Personally I found the one note sharp, one note flat more than annoying while testing. I'd rather have the whole piano 3 cents flat. Nothing is perfect, I guess.
_________________________
www.PianoTunerOrlando.com






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#1869445 - 03/27/12 09:09 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
You are Bob. You are APerfectpiano.com! :):):)
_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#1869464 - 03/27/12 10:02 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
Cinnamonbear Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 3876
Loc: Rockford, IL
Originally Posted By: rysowers
[...] I talked to one technicians who lived between two chapters. At first he went to the bigger one (probably around 50 members) and was surprised that nobody came and said hi to him, and he felt like he basically got the cold shoulder.

Then he went to another somewhat smaller (35 members) chapter that was a little further to drive and was surprised by the difference: a warm welcome and introduction to the group and much looked for support. Within a few years he was chapter President!

The PTG is a very complex organization with no shortage of big egos. There are also some amazing people who give a tremendous amount without seeking anything in return. There are plenty of eccentrics (like you would expect in this type of work) and there are also a good number of suits. It brings people together from the extreme left and right of politics, and folks of all types of religious persuasion. [...]


Sounds like church! grin
_________________________
I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.

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#1869469 - 03/27/12 10:09 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: Cinnamonbear]
RestorerPhil Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/26/12
Posts: 212
Loc: Georgia, USA
Originally Posted By: Cinnamonbear

Sounds like church! grin


Just without the choir.
tired tired tired
tired tired tired
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#1869473 - 03/27/12 10:13 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: RestorerPhil]
Cinnamonbear Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 3876
Loc: Rockford, IL
Originally Posted By: RestorerPhil
Originally Posted By: Cinnamonbear

Sounds like church! grin


Just without the choir.
tired tired tired
tired tired tired


...because everybody's a preacher? whome
_________________________
I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.

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#1869483 - 03/27/12 10:29 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
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Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#1869488 - 03/27/12 10:34 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: Jerry Groot RPT]
Cinnamonbear Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 3876
Loc: Rockford, IL
Jerry,

You're always helping us get a Handel on things...

Thanks!
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#1869490 - 03/27/12 10:36 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
You you mean this kind of Handel? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76RrdwElnTU
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Jerry Groot RPT
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Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#1869491 - 03/27/12 10:39 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: Jerry Groot RPT]
Cinnamonbear Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 3876
Loc: Rockford, IL
LOL! Now you are preaching! grin
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I may not be fast,
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#1869493 - 03/27/12 10:40 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
I'm playing my own saggggaaaa now.

Hey, aren't I playing YOUR song now Andy? hahaha
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Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#1869496 - 03/27/12 10:46 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: Jerry Groot RPT]
Cinnamonbear Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 3876
Loc: Rockford, IL
_________________________
I may not be fast,
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#1869505 - 03/27/12 11:03 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
But, I think they kind of want to do it My way.

You know, you Gave me a mountain to climb here.
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Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#1869506 - 03/27/12 11:05 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
Bob Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/01/01
Posts: 3854
A Perfect Piano was first in the phone book listings......back in the days when the phone book worked! ha ha.
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#1869510 - 03/27/12 11:15 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: Jerry Groot RPT]
Cinnamonbear Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 3876
Loc: Rockford, IL
Originally Posted By: Jerry Groot RPT
But, I think they kind of want to do it My way.

You know, you Gave me a mountain to climb here.


Thank you, Jerry. Thankyouverymush.
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I may not be fast,
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#1869640 - 03/28/12 06:49 AM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
thumb ha

Now that "we've" lightened things up again, go ahead and continue your conversations as per the threads original topic if you so desire. smile
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Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

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#1869642 - 03/28/12 06:59 AM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: Bob]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2546
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: Bob
A Perfect Piano was first in the phone book listings......back in the days when the phone book worked! ha ha.


That's the main reason I became a piano tech. It put me in the yellow pages between physicians and pizza.
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#1869745 - 03/28/12 11:18 AM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
rysowers Offline
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Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 2402
Loc: Olympia, WA
I'm not sure which is more important: Physicians, or pizza? (probably the pizza!)
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#1869796 - 03/28/12 01:02 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4187
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada


With more than 600 calories and a week’s worth of sodium per slice, it is the physician that comes later.
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#1869834 - 03/28/12 02:18 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
Both!!! smile
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Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

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#1880585 - 04/16/12 02:52 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: Emmery]
CalgaryTuning Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 04/14/12
Posts: 1
Loc: Calgary, AB
Originally Posted By: Emmery
The retesting for members who let their membership lapse is simply a money grab. It is ludicrous to assume that failure to keep up with membership or dues is in any way tied in with a loss of competancy. If this were the case, every school in the world would be charging yearly fees for graduates to retain their diplomas or credentials.


It is my understanding that retesting is only required of lapsed members if the exams have changed since they were originally taken.

Your comparison with schools is specious as the PTG isn't a school. All professional organizations require their members to to pay yearly fees to retain their credentials and more than a few require regular skills upgrading to keep them as well.


John
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Three Generations of Experience

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#1880828 - 04/16/12 09:46 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: CalgaryTuning]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2365
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Originally Posted By: CalgaryTuning
Originally Posted By: Emmery
The retesting for members who let their membership lapse is simply a money grab. It is ludicrous to assume that failure to keep up with membership or dues is in any way tied in with a loss of competancy. If this were the case, every school in the world would be charging yearly fees for graduates to retain their diplomas or credentials.


It is my understanding that retesting is only required of lapsed members if the exams have changed since they were originally taken.

Your comparison with schools is specious as the PTG isn't a school. All professional organizations require their members to to pay yearly fees to retain their credentials and more than a few require regular skills upgrading to keep them as well.
John


Its my understanding that retesting is required if payment of dues stops....therefore membership lapses, and a tech would like to be able to advertise and be recognized as an "RPT" again. Although what your saying about the exams changing or not, does make sense, I don't believe it has any bearing on the situation with the PTG unless this is a very recent change they made in this policy.

My comment was not specious about the comparison to schools. I was speaking of the end results... Accreditation, diplomas, professional status or simply letters beside ones name all come under the heading of "Credentials". They can come from schools that test, or they can come from organizations that test. Sometimes a membership in an organization may be mandated by regulations, but piano techs arn't one of them.

In a nutshell, as a graduate of a school program, the credential is recognized as an achievement, in and of itself and is retained by the graduate to be used as they wish. The PTG on the other hand has the RPT credential "rented" to a member for the sum of the yearly membersip due.

My comparison to schools is also tied to the role the PTG plays in providing educational resources, seminars and classes to its members. Schools do the same. Outside of private schools, college or university affiliated piano programs must additionally meet federal and provincial/state educational requirements which are mandated by a regulatory body. This is to assure to the public that a certain level of study (time), competancy and testing has taken place that is in their view, appropriate for the field of study.

Furthermore, graduate students from a recognized institution must meet attendance requirements usually measured in thousands of hours of classes and they must also complete all the required side related courses to their trade/profession...that is before they get to write their final tests. Organizations on the other hand may loosely present their education materials to a student as they wish and the entire process of learning could theoretically take place reading on a toilet with a manual on their lap.


Edited by Emmery (04/16/12 10:05 PM)
Edit Reason: additional information, spelling error
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#1880840 - 04/16/12 10:27 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: Emmery]
Rod Verhnjak Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/09/06
Posts: 3659
Loc: Vancouver B.C. Canada
Originally Posted By: Emmery
Organizations on the other hand may loosely present their education materials to a student as they wish and the entire process of learning could theoretically take place reading on a toilet with a manual on their lap.


I have met many graduates from GB and other schools that could benefit from some a little potty reading. grin
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#1880864 - 04/16/12 11:20 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2365
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
My comment was in regards to the "process" (of learning) Rod....not on what they did with it afterwards. There is no magical guarantee what any person does on any given day with the tools/knowledge/credentials they aquired.
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#1880868 - 04/16/12 11:26 PM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: Emmery]
Rod Verhnjak Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/09/06
Posts: 3659
Loc: Vancouver B.C. Canada
Originally Posted By: Emmery
There is no magical guarantee what any person does on any given day with the tools/knowledge/credentials they aquired.

thumb

We should never stop learning & learn from where it is avaliable.
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of Fine Heirloom Pianos

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#1880882 - 04/17/12 12:32 AM Re: Perception of the PTG from non members [Re: rysowers]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7457
Loc: France
I Had benefit of the Pace publications from the PTG, very well done, and something that was unavaileable in Europe.

lets give to Caesar...

Then, theoretical can be understood as something only experience among experienced people can validate...


Edited by Kamin (04/17/12 12:32 AM)
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