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#1859208 - 03/10/12 12:32 AM Re: Isn't Steinway the One to beat? [Re: Rich Galassini]
Del Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/03
Posts: 5376
Loc: Olympia, Washington
Originally Posted By: Rich Galassini
Originally Posted By: Mike Carr
Rich(facts is facts) Galasinni,

Quote:
The most recent numbers I can quote are from 2010, but Steinway produced under 900 grand pianos for all of North America that year.


"In 2010, we sold 1,836 grand pianos, of which 1,032 units were shipped from our New York facility to dealers in the Americas. The remaining 804 units were shipped from our German facility primarily to
Europe and Asia." 2010 Steinway annual report.

Just to give a broader picture of the facts.


Thank you for doing your homework Mike. You are correct. 1032 were made in New York for The Americas. Of those, under 900 were made for North America.

And yes, facts is facts. smile

I also heard production was about 900 during 2010. It’s possible my source was misinformed but it seemed credible at the time. Might there be a difference between the words "produced" and "sold?" The company could have gone into the year with considerable unsold inventory. The year 2009 wasn't all that good for a lot of companies making and selling luxury goods.

ddf
_________________________
Delwin D Fandrich
Piano Research, Design & Manufacturing Consultant
ddfandrich@gmail.com
(To contact me privately please use this e-mail address.)

Stupidity is a rare condition, ignorance is a common choice. --Anon

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#1859379 - 03/10/12 11:39 AM Re: Isn't Steinway the One to beat? [Re: sushifor5]
Wound up Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/04/12
Posts: 66
Turandot,

No bias here, I just want the OP to know Steinway is not the most cost effective option in the higher end nor the best sounding in the medium lower priced range I used a stronger wording to couteract a misplaced 'prestige' orientation. Though it might be true that I am biased toward better sounding pianos!


Edited by Wound up (03/10/12 11:41 AM)

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#1859391 - 03/10/12 11:50 AM Re: Isn't Steinway the One to beat? [Re: Piano*Dad]
Mike Carr Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/20/09
Posts: 714
Loc: BANNED
PD,

Quote:
Geez, 900 vs. 1000. Big deal. How many grands did Yamaha sell in the US?


Rich seemed to imply that New York production was less than 900 in 2010. A more accurate picture would be that they sold 1032 pianos out of New York, according to the annual report submitted to the SEC. I don’t care about what anyone “heard”. Rich knows that, I’m sure he obsessively tracks Steinway’s demise, but his version sounds better. In any case, that’s a heck of a lot less than they had been selling. Along with most of the other premium makers.

132+ new premium pianos is a significant amount, even for America. It’s not only over ten percent of Steinway’s New York production, but it would likely represent more than makers like fazioli, grotrian, fuerich, sauter, etc. sold here collectively in 2010. And I’d be surprised if Bosendorfer’s sum total of US sales was over 150 in 2010, if that. M&H? Bechstein? 2010 was not a good year for any high end maker. If you talk about actual concert grands sold in the US or those built for the Steinway concert bank, the difference might be even more dramatic.

Much of Steinways marketing strength lies in its concert services, Steinway schools, etc. But wait, Rich says Steinway is losing its grip because Julliard got a Fazioli? Huh?

Yamaha has nothing to do with this particular argument. They didn't ship any(or negligible?)tier 2 pianos to the US in 2010 according to Larry Fine. And I suppose Rich is going to use Fine’s tier 2 ratings when he tells us how it took a bunch of tier 2 makers to "dwarf" Steinway’s domestic production. Problem is by any measure except Fine’s, Steinway New York is a top piano, prestige, actual price, concert performance, concert predominance, etc.

The better question is when Steinway finally falls apart who’s going to take their place? I vote for the Cunningham piano or Hailun.

Many Steinway rebuilders are obsessed with badmouthing Steinway, maybe they wish they were Steinway. But they’re not. I don’t know if their obsession is treatable, but it probably isn’t.

Mike
_________________________
smoke 'em if you got 'em

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#1859475 - 03/10/12 03:03 PM Re: Isn't Steinway the One to beat? [Re: sushifor5]
Rank Piano Amateur Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/11/07
Posts: 1829
I have a question for Mike Carr: what is your particular point of view? I have only detected anti-other-people in your views, but you can't permanently be as angry as you appear to be for no reason. So why the hostility?

I did not detect in anyone's posts above any inkling that anyone thinks that Steinway is facing the "demise" you cite, nor can I detect any evidence that anyone wants Steinway to meet its maker, as it were. You would be a much more effective advocate if (1) you disclosed why you seek to trash everyone else, instead of leaving us all to speculate, and (2) you could keep yourself from sounding so hostile. You are the one who brought up the idea of Steinway ceasing production, no one else did.

Just my two cents. I expect it would be good for your blood pressure if you could calm down. Speaking of treatable conditions. . . .as you were doing at the end of your post.

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#1859613 - 03/10/12 07:29 PM Re: Isn't Steinway the One to beat? [Re: Rank Piano Amateur]
Mike Carr Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/20/09
Posts: 714
Loc: BANNED
In light of Rich's recent statements about Steinway's illegal business activity, and their bribing some judges over a century ago, and how his knowledge of this nonsense, in his own words, has only scratched the surface . . . I don't think I'm too far off in my estimation of Rich's feelings for Steinway. I asked a few questions, clarification about Julliard and some of his numbers, mostly to see if Rich has any real information or just blowing smoke as usual.

Bringing up my blood pressure to bolster your rhetoric while calling me hostile sounds a little ignorant to me.

Writing is thinking. Possibly do a little less of one and more of the other. And let Rich think and answer for himself. He's a big boy now.

Mike
_________________________
smoke 'em if you got 'em

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#1859626 - 03/10/12 07:58 PM Re: Isn't Steinway the One to beat? [Re: sushifor5]
Dave B Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/01/11
Posts: 2165
Loc: Philadelphia area
Mike ,,, I think you Got 'em ..... and your smokin 'em ... Peace dude.

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#1859634 - 03/10/12 08:31 PM Re: Isn't Steinway the One to beat? [Re: Mike Carr]
Rich Galassini Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/28/01
Posts: 9797
Loc: Philadelphia/South Jersey
Hello Mike,

By now you must know that I do not "just blow smoke". I have no crystal ball and everything I have stated either comes from a reliable industry source or is available in writing - as you've already found.

I think you have totally missed with this statement though:

Originally Posted By: Mike Carr
I don't think I'm too far off in my estimation of Rich's feelings for Steinway


I assume you mean that I do not like Steinway pianos. But I have no ill will towards Steinway or their dealers in general. I have played some fantastic Steinway pianos in my lifetime and I have stated this many times.

I do have a problem when the promotion of a brand - any brand - becomes so powerful that facts seem to disappear and the only thing that is common knowledge about the brand is what the company themselves "spin". That is not good for any industry, but is particularly harmful to ours.
_________________________
Rich Galassini
Cunningham Piano Co.
Phila, Pa.
Dir. Line (215) 991-0834
rich@cunninghampiano.com
www.cunninghampiano.com

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#1859639 - 03/10/12 08:45 PM Re: Isn't Steinway the One to beat? [Re: sushifor5]
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14681
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
Quote:
and the only thing that is common knowledge about the brand is what the company themselves "spin". That is not good for any industry, but is particularly harmful to ours.


Unless one uses of course primarily ears & fingers with steady gaze at pocket book...

Norbert wink


Edited by Norbert (03/10/12 08:45 PM)
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#1859651 - 03/10/12 09:24 PM Re: Isn't Steinway the One to beat? [Re: sushifor5]
Rickster Offline


Registered: 03/25/06
Posts: 8940
Loc: Georgia, USA
I must admit that I sense a hint of undue nastiness developing in this thread… (Or perhaps has already developed). I would caution certain members to be mindful of what they say/write here because it is not easily taken back or undone. Unless the moderators or Frank removes/deletes a thread/post it remains on the internet forever.

Mike, a few weeks ago you stated in no uncertain terms that you thought Rich had class… why can’t we leave it at that.

I’d love to own a Steinway, if I could afford it.

Rick
_________________________
Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel

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#1859661 - 03/10/12 10:17 PM Re: Isn't Steinway the One to beat? [Re: sushifor5]
Jeff Clef Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 4525
Loc: San Jose, CA
"...Unless the moderators or Frank removes/deletes a thread/post it remains on the internet forever..."

Seems I have read that anything that goes up on the web is permanently archived, independently of the will of its posters, and regardless of whether it is eventually removed by the people who put it up.

Even so, 'forever' is probably either an exaggeration, naked hubris, or an excess of optimism.
_________________________
Clef


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#1859663 - 03/10/12 10:18 PM Re: Isn't Steinway the One to beat? [Re: Rich Galassini]
Mike Carr Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/20/09
Posts: 714
Loc: BANNED
Rich,

I think the premise of your business, that your rebuilt Steinways are superior to new Steinways while costing less, gets in the way of your good judgment, namely, asking us to believe that your historical endeavors and doubtful rendering of Steinway’s business prospects and practices has nothing to do with the fact that every time Steinway sells a new piano in your area you have to bite another chunk off one of your rebuilds.

Mike


Rickster,

I wouldn't deny that Rich has class. He's even invited me to lunch(no doubt reconsidered). He rolls with the punches and unless I'm mistaken doesn't run to the moderators everytime someone pulls his covers. I like that. I don't share the infatuation of his admirers who characterize me as constantly throwing holy water on Rich while repeating, "the blood of the martyrs commands you, the blood of the martyrs compels you . . ."

Mike (Dami, Why you do this to me?)


_________________________
smoke 'em if you got 'em

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#1859709 - 03/11/12 01:41 AM Re: Isn't Steinway the One to beat? [Re: sushifor5]
Rickster Offline


Registered: 03/25/06
Posts: 8940
Loc: Georgia, USA
Originally Posted By: Jeff Clef
"...Unless the moderators or Frank removes/deletes a thread/post it remains on the internet forever..."

Seems I have read that anything that goes up on the web is permanently archived, independently of the will of its posters, and regardless of whether it is eventually removed by the people who put it up.

Even so, 'forever' is probably either an exaggeration, naked hubris, or an excess of optimism.

How about “figure of speech”… Maybe I should have said forever and a day… grin

Sorry you didn’t get my point; in other words, be careful what you say/write on the Internet in general and on Piano World in particular.

Rick
_________________________
Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel

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#1859787 - 03/11/12 10:12 AM Re: Isn't Steinway the One to beat? [Re: Mike Carr]
David-G Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/17/06
Posts: 1285
Loc: London
I don't have an axe to grind here. I don't own a Steinway. I am most unlikely to be in the market for a Steinway, or indeed for a piano of any kind. Nevertheless I find this an interesting discussion, and Steinway's leading position in the market is obviously a subject of considerable interest.

However, when I read a statement like

Originally Posted By: Mike Carr
The better question is when Steinway finally falls apart who’s going to take their place? I vote for the Cunningham piano or Hailun.

I find myself seriously unimpressed by the supposed sarcasm. And when I read a further statement like

Originally Posted By: Mike Carr
Many Steinway rebuilders are obsessed with badmouthing Steinway, maybe they wish they were Steinway. But they’re not. I don’t know if their obsession is treatable, but it probably isn’t.

when I have certainly seen no "obsession with badmouthing Steinway" in this thread, I can't help feeling that the "badmouthing" is perhaps coming from another source.

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#1860086 - 03/11/12 07:40 PM Re: Isn't Steinway the One to beat? [Re: sushifor5]
Thrill Science Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/11
Posts: 570
Loc: California
You asked "Isn't Steinway the One to beat?"

The top pianos of the day are made by Fazioli (Italy) and Bösendorfer (Austria). By any measure, these are the ones to beat. (Not coincidentally, they're also the most expensive.)

Also very good are the Shigeru Kawai, the Yamaha "S" and "CF" series, Bechstein, Grotrian, Sauter, Steingraeber & Söhne, and Blunther. If you're not hung up on a particular brand, you will find pianos from these makers as good as anything else out there.

Take a look at what Larry Fine, for example, rates as Tier 1 for "performance pianos." According to his last guide, US Made Steinways are second-tier (though he says they are improving). Also see comments from George Kolasis who likes the Shigeru Kawai.

You'll find little significant difference between the Steinway stencils from other pianos in the same price range from the same manufacturers sold under different brand names. In fact, you may prefer the "Kawai" brand Kawais. And though not made by Yamaha, you'd be cheating yourself if you didn't try the Yamaha "C" series if you were considering a "Boston."

If you want to see, feel, and hear what a no-holds-barred piano sounds and plays like, visit a Fazioli or Bösendorfer dealer.


Edited by Thrill Science (03/11/12 07:49 PM)
_________________________
Robert Swirsky
Thrill Science, Inc.

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#1860197 - 03/11/12 10:59 PM Re: Isn't Steinway the One to beat? [Re: Thrill Science]
turandot Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 7439
Loc: torrance, CA
"By any measure" huh?

I hope you got a thrill our of that post because there sure wasn't any science. laugh
_________________________
Will Johnny Come Marching Home?
The fate of the modern wartime soldier

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#1860281 - 03/12/12 02:31 AM Re: Isn't Steinway the One to beat? [Re: sushifor5]
sushifor5 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/03/12
Posts: 74
Loc: Northern Idaho
This has been a very interesting thread to read...I understand now that I poorly worded my original post's title (credit goes to turnadot), but I've enjoyed the perspectives shared. I am certainly not well versed in the broad world of pianos, and am only slightly familiar with certain brands. I have read Fine and I see that a handful of exceptional European pianos take top rank....I suppose I always thought of Steinway and Sons in the top tier as well, and I think of S&S as an American Icon of sorts. And, OK, I do like the Steinway sound. I've enjoyed playing and hearing the Boston grands as well, whose smallest grand has taken a place in my heart. The folks at my "local" Steinway gallery have been just wonderful and truly educative on various fronts. It seems that the Steinway debate is long-standing and lively, and I have no intention of joining it; I really was trying to solicit genuine thoughts and information on the Steinway-designed Boston vs. other pianos in its class. We are in the midst of our journey...it's a thrilling ride. Thx!

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