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#1859931 - 03/11/12 03:15 PM Which piece is harder?
Jontek Offline
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Registered: 03/06/12
Posts: 27
Wich piece is technically harder: Chopin Prelude op 24 or Chopin Nocturne op 48 no 1?

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#1859934 - 03/11/12 03:18 PM Re: Which piece is harder? [Re: Jontek]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19777
Loc: New York
You mean Prelude number 24?
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"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)

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#1859935 - 03/11/12 03:19 PM Re: Which piece is harder? [Re: Jontek]
Kreisler Offline



Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13789
Loc: Iowa City, IA
They're close enough to make it a matter of one's unique situation.
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#1859936 - 03/11/12 03:21 PM Re: Which piece is harder? [Re: Kreisler]
Mark_C Offline
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Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19777
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Kreisler
They're close enough to make it a matter of one's unique situation.

How do you know what he's asking about? If you really do you're smarter than I am, which maybe you are anyway. ha

BTW if he means what I think he does, IMO one of them is technically much harder.
_________________________
"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)

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#1859937 - 03/11/12 03:22 PM Re: Which piece is harder? [Re: Jontek]
pianoloverus Online   content
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Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19352
Loc: New York City
In order to answer your question can you tell me:
Which do you like better, pizza or ice cream?

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#1859939 - 03/11/12 03:24 PM Re: Which piece is harder? [Re: Mark_C]
Nikolas Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5265
Loc: Europe
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: Kreisler
They're close enough to make it a matter of one's unique situation.

How do you know what he's asking about? If you really do you're smarter than I am, which maybe you are anyway. ha
He's a mod! That says it all! grin

I would imagine that he's talking about No. 24 (and not op. 24)... In which case I also think that they're close by, but I totally loath fast double notes dropping on the right hand (as is the case with the prelude).
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#1859940 - 03/11/12 03:26 PM Re: Which piece is harder? [Re: Nikolas]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19777
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Nikolas
I would imagine....

Aha!
You need to imagine. grin

I wouldn't imagine.

P.S. IMO Prelude #24 is on a technical level of the hardest etudes (if we're talking about playing those riffs anywhere close to how they should be played). The Nocturne is hard too, but not on that level.
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"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)

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#1859948 - 03/11/12 03:39 PM Re: Which piece is harder? [Re: Jontek]
Jontek Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/06/12
Posts: 27
Yes sorry I mean Prelude no 24 of course :P

I wonder because, people say that the Nocturne is so extremely difficult and harder than many of the etudes, but to me it doesn't sound like it is(I have not studied it, but I want to), and the prelude is also a piece I love.. The Prelude is my favorite Prelude and the Nocturne, is my favorite Nocturne smile Is the Prelude harder than the Nocturne?

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#1859953 - 03/11/12 03:43 PM Re: Which piece is harder? [Re: Jontek]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19777
Loc: New York
OK.
Looks like opinions vary. smile

But IMO this is one of the few such questions that has a clear answer. Usually the pieces in such comparisons are more or less at a similar level, but IMO not here.

I consider the Prelude to be technically on the level of Chopin's very hardest pieces. I'd put it in the category of "not for amateurs" except in very rare instances, unless we're ignoring 'the hard parts' grin or not caring if they're not being played anywhere close to how they should. The Nocturne is very hard too, but very accessible for most decent players.
_________________________
"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)

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#1859957 - 03/11/12 03:47 PM Re: Which piece is harder? [Re: Jontek]
Jontek Offline
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Registered: 03/06/12
Posts: 27
I see, looks like one should wait with the Prelude then :P Thank you!

But about the Nocturne, I love it.. One of Chopin's greatest masterpieces in my opinion, and I wonder if it really is as difficult as many of his etudes as I have heard many times, if so, which etudes do you think it is harder/about the same level as, technically?

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#1859959 - 03/11/12 03:49 PM Re: Which piece is harder? [Re: Jontek]
Mark_C Offline
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Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19777
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Jontek
I see, looks like one should wait with the Prelude....

No, wait to see what other people say. smile
_________________________
"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)

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#1859961 - 03/11/12 03:52 PM Re: Which piece is harder? [Re: Jontek]
Jontek Offline
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Registered: 03/06/12
Posts: 27
You mean other people think they are the same level of difficulty? :P But I would really appreciate if you could answer me if the Nocturne op 48 no 1 is harder and at the same level than some of his etudes and if so, which ones smile

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#1859964 - 03/11/12 03:56 PM Re: Which piece is harder? [Re: pianoloverus]
Jontek Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/06/12
Posts: 27
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
In order to answer your question can you tell me:
Which do you like better, pizza or ice cream?

Of course I can tell you. I prefer ice cream! Actually, I often even prefer disgusting ice cream over pizza.

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#1860000 - 03/11/12 04:46 PM Re: Which piece is harder? [Re: Jontek]
Kreisler Offline



Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13789
Loc: Iowa City, IA
I don't think the prelude is anywhere near the difficulty of most of the etudes. Everybody complains about the double thirds, but it's descending minor thirds for TWO measures. The LH pattern is somewhat difficult, but rather straightforward.

The nocturne also has difficulties - not in terms of speed, obviously, but the shaping and stamina and pedaling of all the octave sections can be an issue, as can be the tricky voicing of the melody when it returns at the end.

Obviously, if you can't play thirds, then the prelude is a nightmare. On the other hand, if you aren't very good at voicing, then the nocturne is going to sound awful.

Also, and sorry to be blunt, when people ask questions like these (which they often do), I tend to read this between the lines:

"I want to play a stormy, minor-key piece by Chopin. I'm not really advanced enough to handle any of them, but I don't have the patience to work through scales, arpeggios, exercises, and slightly less advanced romantic works by Heller, Mendelssohn, etc."

In which case, regardless of which one is chosen, there's going to be a problem. So you make a choice - do you want to give yourself carpal tunnel in the LH and slow to half speed (or be sloppy) for two measures worth of thirds, or do you want to give yourself carpal tunnel in both hands while you bang through octaves, and play the return of the A section in such a way that nobody can hear the melody clearly?

Personally, I'd suggest going with something a bit easier that one can really play well. Mendelssohn Op. 53/3 is a great choice, as are Heller Op. 45/15, the Reinhold Impromptu (Op. 28/3), the Military Polonaise, Rachmaninoff Op. 32/10.

Or going back to the original two choices - the prelude may very well be the best choice, as it's a great way to focus on playing double-thirds. They're isolated, minor, and only go one direction (in other words, one of the easiest fast double-thirds passages you'll find.)
_________________________
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

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#1860006 - 03/11/12 05:03 PM Re: Which piece is harder? [Re: Kreisler]
Mark_C Offline
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Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19777
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Kreisler
....when people ask questions like these (which they often do), I tend to read this between the lines:

"I want to play a stormy, minor-key piece by Chopin. I'm not really advanced enough to handle any of them, but I don't have the patience to work through scales, arpeggios, exercises, and slightly less advanced romantic works by Heller, Mendelssohn, etc."

In which case, regardless of which one is chosen, there's going to be a problem.....

+1

More so, what I usually seem to get is that their idea of difficulty isn't the same as what ours might be, that they're not going to be very particular about how they play the pieces, and so that it really doesn't much matter which of them they play.

Quote:
I don't think the prelude is anywhere near the difficulty of most of the etudes. Everybody complains about the double thirds, but it's descending minor thirds for TWO measures....

You think the small amount of it changes it? I mean sure, it would be even more challenging if there were more of it, but if someone just can't play it -- and remember, I'm talking not just about barely getting the notes but playing it in a meaningful way .....if someone just can't play it (and IMO quite few people can), they can't play it no matter how little of it the piece has. If Feux Follets had only two measures of that double note stuff, would you say it's not that hard because it's only 2 measures? IMO the main thing about it being only 2 measures is that it might make people feel it doesn't matter that much if they can't really do it, which I suppose is OK if that's what they mean by playing the piece.

BTW I'm not saying this is as hard as Feux Follets. Just trying to make the point. smile

I'm sticking with it not being a piece for amateurs except in rare instances. Or if it's OK to leave out those measures. grin


Edited by Mark_C (03/11/12 06:17 PM)
_________________________
"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)

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#1860010 - 03/11/12 05:12 PM Re: Which piece is harder? [Re: Jontek]
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19352
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Jontek
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
In order to answer your question can you tell me:
Which do you like better, pizza or ice cream?

Of course I can tell you. I prefer ice cream! Actually, I often even prefer disgusting ice cream over pizza.
In that case, the Prelude will be easier. The technique and musical ideas is closer to eating ice cream than pizza.

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#1860065 - 03/11/12 06:29 PM Re: Which piece is harder? [Re: Kreisler]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6646
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: Kreisler



Also, and sorry to be blunt, when people ask questions like these (which they often do), I tend to read this between the lines:

"I want to play a stormy, minor-key piece by Chopin. I'm not really advanced enough to handle any of them, but I don't have the patience to work through scales, arpeggios, exercises, and slightly less advanced romantic works by Heller, Mendelssohn, etc."



+1
"I kind of suck and don't want to do the work, but I reallllly want to play this or that." To which, my reply is, "Sorry about your luck."
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


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#1860079 - 03/11/12 07:23 PM Re: Which piece is harder? [Re: stores]
Jontek Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/06/12
Posts: 27
What do you guys know about what I can or cannot do? How I do or do not work?
Not okay, I don't think I will ever post here again, I am new here and haven't got a good impression.

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#1860087 - 03/11/12 07:48 PM Re: Which piece is harder? [Re: Jontek]
carey Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 6346
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
Originally Posted By: Jontek
What do you guys know about what I can or cannot do? How I do or do not work?
Not okay, I don't think I will ever post here again, I am new here and haven't got a good impression.


Jontek -

We obviously don't know what you can or cannot do - or how you work, for that matter. The majority of the responses here addressed your original question about as well as it could be addressed (i.e., relative difficulty is sometimes subjective). The best thing would be for you to simply attempt each of the two works in question and see how you do with them. If YOU are ready to play them - you'll know it. And if not - there are many other wonderful (and easier) works by Chopin that you can play instead that are just as worthwhile to learn. Don't leave - stick around. thumb
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YouTube channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/pianophilo

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#1860093 - 03/11/12 07:59 PM Re: Which piece is harder? [Re: Jontek]
Kreisler Offline



Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13789
Loc: Iowa City, IA
Originally Posted By: Jontek
What do you guys know about what I can or cannot do? How I do or do not work?
Not okay, I don't think I will ever post here again, I am new here and haven't got a good impression.


That's kind of our point. If we don't know about what you can or cannot do, then how can we be expected to recommend repertoire? The technical requirements for those two pieces are quite different...
_________________________
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

www.pianoped.com
www.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed

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#1860109 - 03/11/12 08:37 PM Re: Which piece is harder? [Re: Jontek]
ChopinAddict Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/09
Posts: 6101
Loc: Land of the never-ending music
I personally chose to go with the prelude first...
_________________________



Music is my best friend.


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#1860131 - 03/11/12 09:06 PM Re: Which piece is harder? [Re: Kreisler]
carey Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 6346
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
Originally Posted By: Kreisler
If we don't know about what you can or cannot do, then how can we be expected to recommend repertoire? The technical requirements for those two pieces are quite different...


And even when someone tells us what they can or can't do - unless they post a recording or video to prove it - we can only "assume" their self assessment is realistic.....which makes responding to these types of questions (as sincere as they might be) very challenging.
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#1860144 - 03/11/12 09:21 PM Re: Which piece is harder? [Re: Kreisler]
Ridicolosamente Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/08/08
Posts: 1467
Loc: Miami, Florida, USA
Originally Posted By: Nikolas
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: Kreisler
They're close enough to make it a matter of one's unique situation.

How do you know what he's asking about? If you really do you're smarter than I am, which maybe you are anyway. ha
He's a mod! That says it all! grin
Kreisler = smart. I wouldn't be so quick to accept that all mods are smart though. (I say that from my experience of being a mod on a different forum years and years ago smile )

Originally Posted By: Mark_C
...IMO this is one of the few such questions that has a clear answer. Usually the pieces in such comparisons are more or less at a similar level, but IMO not here.

I consider the Prelude to be technically on the level of Chopin's very hardest pieces. I'd put it in the category of "not for amateurs"...
+1

Originally Posted By: Jontek
...But about the Nocturne, I love it.. One of Chopin's greatest masterpieces in my opinion, and I wonder if it really is as difficult as many of his etudes as I have heard many times...
Play through the "doppio movimento" and decide for yourself. There are no speed-of-lightning scales, runs, or arpeggios to scream out loud "difficult!", but it's no walk in the park. Extremely difficult to balance the melody over the accompanying chords. The left hand alone is a nightmare. I say that from my own experience learning it a few years back. I usually find it surprising when people fixate on the double octaves of the middle section - to me the greatest difficulties of the Nocturne lie in the doppio movimento.

Originally Posted By: Kreisler
...So you make a choice - do you want to give yourself carpal tunnel in the LH and slow to half speed (or be sloppy) for two measures worth of thirds, or do you want to give yourself carpal tunnel in both hands while you bang through octaves, and play the return of the A section in such a way that nobody can hear the melody clearly?...
+1

-Daniel
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Currently working on:
-Dane Rudhyar's Stars from Pentagrams No 3

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#1860169 - 03/11/12 10:13 PM Re: Which piece is harder? [Re: carey]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7850
Originally Posted By: carey


We obviously don't know what you can or cannot do - or how you work, for that matter.


Except that we do know one thing this person cannot do, and that is to figure out on their own by reading through the music which is the more difficult for them (or whether that is even a reasonable thing to try to figure out). That gives me enough information to be pretty certain that both pieces are beyond their reach at this time.

With advanced music like this, being able to assess the difficulties in terms of your own abilities should be one way you know whether you can play it at all. If you can't do that, then you won't be able to play it. It's a pretty reliable rule of thumb, IMO.

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#1860187 - 03/11/12 10:43 PM Re: Which piece is harder? [Re: Jontek]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19777
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Jontek
What do you guys know about what I can or cannot do? How I do or do not work?
Not okay, I don't think I will ever post here again, I am new here and haven't got a good impression.

Jontek: I hope you'll stay and I'm sure the others do too.

But you might be better off asking questions like this on the "Adult Beginners Forum," or maybe just not being so persistent in how you keep asking more and more questions after people have answered what you started with. The people on this section tend to be more advanced, or at least intermediate, and I hope you realize that the questions you've been asking on this thread are sort of at a lower level. People who are even at an intermediate level would usually be able to tell for themselves which piece is harder for them and whether either one would be a good idea to try to play. I don't think there's any problem with people of any level being on any section of the site, but....just try to realize that a lot depends on what kinds of things you're asking and how you're asking them.

Anyway....It's great that you're interested in these pieces. It's great that you're interested in the kind of repertoire that we here all love so much, and great that you're interested to play them. We wish there were many more like you, and I hope you'll stay here. But please try to understand why some of us find the questions annoying sometimes, and maybe try not to keep asking more and more questions on a thread where people seem to feel that even the original question wasn't such a good idea. smile
_________________________
"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)

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#1860295 - 03/12/12 04:22 AM Re: Which piece is harder? [Re: Jontek]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6646
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: Jontek
What do you guys know about what I can or cannot do? How I do or do not work?
Not okay, I don't think I will ever post here again, I am new here and haven't got a good impression.


Oh stop your crying. I've so had it with people who want this, that and the other, but have no time for the reality of it all. How do we know what you're capable of from reading just a few words from you? Experience. We have it...you don't. Now chin up and get your butt back here and learn a thing or two.
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


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#1860298 - 03/12/12 04:39 AM Re: Which piece is harder? [Re: Jontek]
Jontek Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/06/12
Posts: 27
First of all, I cannot see how this question is more stupid than any of the questions about the relative difficulty of the ballades by Chopin that pretty much all of you seem to answer with pleasure. Also, I am not a beginner, I have been playing for five years and I can certainly play the piano. I might not be a super virtuouso like stores here, but I do know my stuff and I am certainly not a beginner(not an adult beginner either for that matter, as I did not start playing as an adult).


Edited by Jontek (03/12/12 04:40 AM)

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#1860300 - 03/12/12 04:48 AM Re: Which piece is harder? [Re: Jontek]
Jontek Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/06/12
Posts: 27
And one thing more to you stores. You say you have experience in this area, but your way of dividing people in to categories(yes that's right, as you said that from experience you can tell what I can or cannot do) makes me wonder what political party you would have belonged to 70 years ago. No, by the way, I can easily figure that out from EXPERIENCE.

Pretty much the same thing.

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#1860343 - 03/12/12 08:41 AM Re: Which piece is harder? [Re: Jontek]
MarkH Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/16/08
Posts: 857
Loc: Seattle, WA
Originally Posted By: Jontek
...your way of dividing people in to categories(yes that's right, as you said that from experience you can tell what I can or cannot do) makes me wonder what political party you would have belonged to 70 years ago.


LOL, I just learned about it, and Godwin's law rears its head.
_________________________
Currently Studying: Bach - English Suite No. 5; Beethoven - Op. 27 No. 1; Chopin - Op. 27 No. 1; Chopin - 3rd Scherzo

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#1860437 - 03/12/12 12:14 PM Re: Which piece is harder? [Re: Jontek]
BruceD Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 18031
Loc: Victoria, BC
Originally Posted By: Jontek
[...]Also, I am not a beginner, I have been playing for five years and I can certainly play the piano. I might not be a super virtuouso like stores here, but I do know my stuff and I am certainly not a beginner(not an adult beginner either for that matter, as I did not start playing as an adult).


If those, then, are the facts, what is the point of your original question? With five years experience of playing the piano, surely you can pick up the score of both pieces, read through them several times, and decide for yourself which is the more difficult. That would make much more sense than asking the opinions of people whose skills and experience you don't know. Moreover, some technical difficulties challenge different pianists differently; so while octave passages, for example, may be difficult for some, they may be relatively easy for others.

I repeat, then; pick up the scores, read through them, and decide for yourself which you think is the more difficult. If you can't do that, then they are both too difficult for you and the question is moot.

Regards,
_________________________
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