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Hi all,

I've been reading this forum for a while now and have found tons of useful info already! Thanks guys and keep it up!

Now to my problem - I need an acoustic upright piano. I've been looking for one for the past few years, constantly increasing my budget (the darn instruments aren't cheap ). Currently I'm looking for something in the range of 2000-3000 GBP and if it's really worth it, I could stretch with another 500 or so.

So far I've found that in this price range I can only get a second hand Yamaha/Kawai. I was at a local dealer yesterday, testing a fully serviced U3 from 1978 which was quite decent - both action and tone wise. The only thing is that as part of the repairs, this guy replaced the bass strings, so they still sound quite tinny, but he said this should be fixed within an year as the new strings age..

I also found a Grotrian-Steinweg model 120 that is from the 60s, which the owner claims has been well maintained throughout its lifetime, which I'm going to be testing today.. Based on what I've read in this forum, if this piano is in a good shape, this should be a good deal.

I've played a few times Steinway and it's really depressing how much better those sound and how much more expensive they are.. Talking of which, a local owner is selling his upright Steinway (serial 374286) from 1962, which he claims is also in a very good condition. It hasn't been rebuilt or anything as far as I understood, and he wants for it 7500 GBP. Would that be a fair price? Especially given the age of the piano and the fact that it hasn't been rebuilt..

Any opinions are welcome.

Thanks,
Alex

On the U3, I'd be suspicious of that statement that the new strings will sound better when they've aged a bit.... ? Really? Sounds like a line of hooey to me. Basically, if the piano sounds bad at the time you play it, walk away, or let them get it tuned and voiced properly. If you buy it and it doesn't ripen... you'll still have a tinny sounding piano and he'll have your money.

As for the Steinway upright 7500 GBP sounds pricey, but if you've got it to spend, and a tech checks it out and gives it the thumbs up, it might be one of the best uprights you'll find. 1960ish is pretty old, but if the strings and hammers are in good shape, and it's been well maintained, it may be worth that much. If there's any significant wear that will require rebuilding, you might want to shy away from it though. I've heard from two technician friends that they are a difficult rebuild (ie - expensive).

Hi, and welcome to the Piano World forums, Alex!

I agree with Cary, I thought the quality of bass strings got worse with age and not better. In fact, they should sound their absolute best when new; unless he was talking about the tuning stability… which is a good possibility. Any newly installed piano strings will stretch and need frequent tuning until they stabilize. I’ll bet that is what he was talking about as I think about it…

But, there may be something about aging bass strings that I don't know (which is a lot).

I've heard good things about the Grotrian-Steinweg brand, though I've never seen or played one.

Good luck, and keep us informed!

Rick

Two pianos equally worth considering at our local piano emporium the other day were a 1980s U3 at £3250 and a hardly used 1970s(?) Knight at £1750. We once had a wonderful 1960s Grotrian-Steinweg in the family.

Where in the UK are you? I may be able to point you in the right direction...

Thanks for all your comments!

The guy was explicitly talking about the richness of the bass, not the need for regular tuning due to the strings being new..

Also I should've mentioned that I am an expat, currently living in Denmark, so guidance for the UK market probably won't help me much. I appreciate the offer though

Today I couldn't see the Grotrian, but managed to get my hands on a number of other pianos. Played a couple of other U3 and U1, some Kawais and a Boston. I more and more think that the U3 is not what I want. It is a decent piano, but it just doesn't sound right.. It could be that the ones I tried weren't in their best shape, but either way - none of them really impressed me.

The Boston was kind of nice, but it was brand new so it's definitely out of my budget. The same dealer had a number of second hand grands, so I played some of them and fell in love with a Bechstein from 1938 which hasn't been rebuilt or anything but still had an amazing sound and great action! It comes at 6000 GBP which I could somehow convince my wife into, but I simply don't have the space..

The whole experience of finding a decent piano is incredibly frustrating.. Another learning for me so far is that a decent digital (I own a Roland FP-4 and I'm quite happy with it) has a way better price to quality ratio, than most of the second hand and brand new acoustic pianos

If you get a chance, check out a Hailun. I played one today that was very nice. They are relatively inexpensive too.

+1

I checked a whole bunch of other pianos and I'm more and more leaning towards buying a Kawai K-6 or K-8. I don't really have the space for a baby grand, otherwise I loved a GE-20 which sounded so nice..

The problem now is, my local Kawai dealer in Copenhagen doesn't have neither the K6 nor the K8 on stock.. And I really don't feel like buying a piano that I didn't even test.. I know that Kawai's are fairly adjustable (voicing, touch, etc.), so with this in mind would it still be completely insane to buy a piano off a catalog without even hearing it? Also - in case I want the piano voiced and the touch adjusted (I like a bit lighter touch) - how long does that normally take? And is it something that normally dealers do as part of prep or am I supposed to pay separately for it?

And last, but not least, I saw that Bohemia R132 and W.Hoffman T-128 are also in the same price range as the Kawai K6/8. Does any of you guys have any experience with those brands? Is it worth the travel to go check them out (the store isn't exactly in the city)

Thanks!
Alex

Ah yeah, and compared to the first post, I nearly doubled my budget. Looking for something in the 6000gbp range now.. Simply can't find anything cheaper around here, that's really worth it

And a side question - I read somewhere a guy that was advising not to buy a new piano as it takes 10 years for a piano to 'mature' (whatever that means).. Is that really a valid advice?

No, but you can expect the instrument to need the most service/attention in the first year of ownership and should budget accordingly. (typically, double the amount of work in my experience) The piano will become increasingly stable after that if you service and play it regularly.

yeah, i imagined that

How about the Bohemia R-132 vs W.Hoffman T-128 vs Kawai K6 vs Kawai K8? Anyone any observations? And whether it's safe to buy a Kawai K6 without even having played it prior to purchase?

Thanks,
Alex

Sorry, I haven't played 3 of the 4 specific models you list there. Regarding the second part (buying without trying it), how confident are you in the dealer? How well do the models play in-store? How picky are you about the touch and tone being exactly the way you want it? If the answer to the last question is, "very picky" then I wouldn't advise taking the risk.

Not sure what this means.

Piano mfrs generally recommend that a new piano be tuned about 3-4 times the first year and every 6 months after that. Of course, a lot of the stability of new pianos depends on how much they have been tuned at the factory and how well the dealer has prepared them. Lower cost and lower quality pianos get less attention.

New hammers need to be voiced, played in for a while, and voiced again. This is an area where less expensive vertical pianos tend to be neglected at the factory and by the dealer. Make sure your dealer has the hammers shaped correctly and voiced as part of the dealer's prep of the instrument. Yamaha Little Red Schoolhouse says that in order to voice a piano, it must first have a perfect regulation and a perfect tuning, then you can voice the hammers.

well, the dealer is the official and the only dealer of Kawai in Denmark (according to Kawai's webpage).. they're pretty big and supply pianos for most of piano schools around Copenhagen, so my confidence is good - I think they know what they're doing..

but I am picky on both - voicing and touch.. I like the touch a bit lighter than heavier and the tone more mellow than bright (hence why I'm leaning towards Kawai and not Yamaha)

I'll talk to these guys tomorrow and see what they can offer.. I definitely don't wanna a new piano that sounds like crap

I know that Kawai are mid-price pianos, but still expected the K6/8 to be of good quality.. am I missing something here

So sorry - I didn't mean to imply that Kawai K6/8 is a lesser quality piano; they are very good quality pianos. I was speaking more generally about dealer preparation and how vertical pianos tend to get short-changed in dealer prep. And it's sad that this happens because most people's introduction to owning a piano is through a lower cost instrument. These pianos should be prepared as well as the best piano in a dealer's showroom. Yes, I am a bit idealistic and probably very off topic as well... Hope this clarifies my earlier comment.

no worries

I think I'll go and check out the Bohemia 132 anyway.. seems it's a good piano, although I'd really really love to play and hear the Kawai. for some reason (pure prejudice) I tend to believe that the Kawai K6 will be better - i really like mellow sounding pianos

disclaimer: I have no knowledge or experience with the European piano market or its prices.

Hailun would be worth checking. I think they are actually branded Wendl & Lung in Europe. They should be around your original price range new, maybe a bit beyond it. You should be able to find something that is either very good and used, or good and new (but not Japanese or European) for that price range. In America, the Kohler & Campbell uprights are often sold next to Kawai, and I have thought well of them. They would be in that price range.

If your budget increased to 6000, I think you might as well get a used baby grand. If you don't have the space for it, then lower the budget and stick with uprights. And re-read my disclaimer when considering my advice