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#1830821 - 01/24/12 06:30 AM Re: Any info re: the new Kawai CE220? [Re: Csillag]
Kawai James Online   content
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 8388
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By: Csillag
By the way, if it's not a closely guarded secret, could you please give us some insight about how Kawai makes it's decision about product development? Are you doing marketing research to test new ideas?


I'm very keen for Kawai to be more open and transparent about various aspects of the company (including the research and development of its instruments), and I certainly appreciate the interest from yourself and other PW regulars about future Kawai instruments. However, I'm afraid I don't believe it would be terribly appropriate to discuss this topic on a public forum - I hope you can understand that.

Originally Posted By: Csillag
Would it help if you someone quickly collected hundreds of subscriptions encouraging Kawai to produce a AWA-PRO-II / RM3 based midi controller?


It would be interesting, yes. However, I would encourage you to spend your time on other pursuits, such as playing your new CN23. wink

I believe a successful company is one that listens closely to its consumers. However, for one reason or another, it's not always possible to deliver exactly what folks are looking for all the time.

Kind regards,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1830823 - 01/24/12 06:52 AM Re: Any info re: the new Kawai CE220? [Re: Fun2Learn]
Dave Horne Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 5261
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
I'm very keen for Kawai to be more open and transparent about various aspects of the company (including the research and development of its instruments), and I certainly appreciate the interest from yourself and other PW regulars about future Kawai instruments. However, I'm afraid I don't believe it would be terribly appropriate to discuss this topic on a public forum - I hope you can understand that.

Yep, that makes perfect sense. smile
_________________________
website

mp3\wav files

AvantGrand N3, CP5

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#1831081 - 01/24/12 03:58 PM Re: Any info re: the new Kawai CE220? [Re: Kawai James]
Csillag Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/22/10
Posts: 249
Loc: Hungary, Europe
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
However, I would encourage you to spend your time on other pursuits, such as playing your new CN23. wink


Don't worry, James, I try to find the time play it smile
(I plan to post some recordings soon.)

However

a) that's something I can't do while I am at work (unlike stalking PW forums), and

b) I have already arranged an update (CN-23 -> CN-33) with my local dealer back in November, but they still could not ship it - that's why I am still keeping an eye on new Kawai products. (Who knows, I might find something I like better.)

Best wishes:

Kristof

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#1833849 - 01/28/12 07:26 PM Re: Any info re: the new Kawai CE220? [Re: Fun2Learn]
rob1261 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/04/06
Posts: 89
Loc: philadelphia, pa, usa

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#1834027 - 01/29/12 02:32 AM Re: Any info re: the new Kawai CE220? [Re: Fun2Learn]
Csillag Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/22/10
Posts: 249
Loc: Hungary, Europe
It's a pity the review does not even mention the CA series (especially the CA-13), which seems to be a closest competitor to this model.

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#1834065 - 01/29/12 05:55 AM Re: Any info re: the new Kawai CE220? [Re: Fun2Learn]
Kawai James Online   content
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 8388
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Probably because the CA13 is not sold in the US.

James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1834073 - 01/29/12 06:35 AM Re: Any info re: the new Kawai CE220? [Re: Kawai James]
Qbert Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/29/10
Posts: 328
Loc: Italy
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Originally Posted By: Csillag
Would it help if you someone quickly collected hundreds of subscriptions encouraging Kawai to produce a AWA-PRO-II / RM3 based midi controller?


It would be interesting, yes.


+1 thumb

Please, take into account:
let-off
ivory feel (why in CE220 is missing?)
_________________________
GEM Promega 3 (sold) - Yamaha CLP 170 (sold) - Acuna88 (sold) - Kawai VPC1 + BK7m

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#1834074 - 01/29/12 07:02 AM Re: Any info re: the new Kawai CE220? [Re: Qbert]
Kawai James Online   content
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 8388
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By: Qbert
Please, take into account:
let-off
ivory feel (why in CE220 is missing?)


Qbert, the CE220 uses the older AWA Grand Pro II action, which does not feature let-off simulation or Ivory Feel keys surfaces.

James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1834099 - 01/29/12 08:25 AM Re: Any info re: the new Kawai CE220? [Re: rob1261]
Csillag Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/22/10
Posts: 249
Loc: Hungary, Europe
Originally Posted By: rob1261
There is a good review of the new Kawai CE220 here:

http://azpianonews.blogspot.com/2012/01/review-kawai-ce220-digital-piano.html


Although this part sounds far-fetched to me:

Quote:

[...] the popular Kawai CN23 digital piano ($1799 internet price) will get stiff competition from this new CE220 for only $100 more.


1. $1800 for the CN23? Where did he get those figures? Should not it be a few hundred lower?

(But OTOH, I am working from the European prices, so my guess might be totally wrong.)

2. "competition" between CN23 and CE220? There is no competition; the CE220 is in a completely different category...

Kristof

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#1834104 - 01/29/12 08:33 AM Re: Availability [Re: Kawai James]
Csillag Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/22/10
Posts: 249
Loc: Hungary, Europe
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Originally Posted By: Csillag
About the price: how does this model relate to CA13?


- CE200: $1700 (Musician's Friend)
- CA13: €1555 (Thomann)


So, bringing it to common currency:
  • Lowest entry point for Kawai wooden action in the USA: CE200, 1699 USD
  • Lowest entry point for Kawai wooden action in western Europe: CA13, 2034 USD (converted from 1555 EUR, Thomann's current price)
  • Lowest entry point for Kawai wooden action in Hungary (Central Europe): CA13, 2404 USD (converted from 539 000 HUF, today's price from Hungary's one and only Kawai dealer.)

The bottom line is, to get a Kawai wooden action, Europeans need to pay 20% more than their American peers - and if you are from Central/Eastern Europe, then the number is even higher, about 40%.

Can anybody offer a rational explanation for this?

Thank you for your help:

Kristof

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#1834107 - 01/29/12 08:37 AM Re: Availability [Re: Csillag]
ONfrank Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/27/11
Posts: 98
Originally Posted By: Csillag
The bottom line is, to get a Kawai wooden action, Europeans need to pay 20% more than their American peers - and if you are from Central/Eastern Europe, then the number is even higher, about 40%.

Can anybody offer a rational explanation for this?

Thank you for your help:

Kristof


The listed European prices include up to 20% VAT.

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#1834109 - 01/29/12 08:44 AM Re: Availability [Re: ONfrank]
Csillag Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/22/10
Posts: 249
Loc: Hungary, Europe
Originally Posted By: ONfrank
The listed European prices include up to 20% VAT.

Actually, the level of VAT is not the same across the EU; it's changing between 15% and 27%.
(But yes, that explains almost all the difference ... not that it makes it all that easier to swallow it.)

Kristof

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#1834114 - 01/29/12 08:57 AM Re: Availability [Re: Csillag]
Kawai James Online   content
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 8388
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By: Csillag
The bottom line is, to get a Kawai wooden action, Europeans need to pay 20% more than their American peers - and if you are from Central/Eastern Europe, then the number is even higher, about 40%.


- European women are 20% more beautiful than American women.
- Central/Eastern European women are 20% even more beautiful again.

James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1847555 - 02/18/12 10:26 PM Re: Availability [Re: Fun2Learn]
NatFL Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/11/12
Posts: 19
Is the CE220 a comparable alternative to the CN33? I've had my eye on the CN33 but the CE220 is getting rave reviews, and at a $400 lower cost. The biggest difference I can see between the two is:

- AWA ProII action (CE220) vs. RH with letoff (CN33)
- 22 sounds (CE220) vs. 36 sounds (CN33)
- satin black cabinet finish (CE 220) vs. multiple finishes (CN33)

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#1847615 - 02/19/12 02:10 AM Re: Availability [Re: Fun2Learn]
Kawai James Online   content
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 8388
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
NatFL, yes, the CE220 and CN33 are quite similar. I definitely prefer the cabinet design of the CN33 over the CE220, however in terms of specifications, the wooden key action is arguably the winner.

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

Top
#1847620 - 02/19/12 02:24 AM Re: Availability [Re: Fun2Learn]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3474
Loc: Pennsylvania
I think I'd probably go with the CE, even if they were the same price.

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#1847626 - 02/19/12 02:32 AM Re: Availability [Re: NatFL]
fnx Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/12/12
Posts: 5
Loc: Belmont, CA
A couple more things:
[*]192 (CE220) vs. 92 notes of polyphony (CN33)
[*]CN33 has Concert Magic (88 Songs) & built-in Alfred lessons
_________________________
Phoenix Tong :: Programmer :: Belmont, CA :: Piano dad :: Kawai MP10, Grotrian Model 189

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#1847714 - 02/19/12 08:43 AM Re: Availability [Re: Fun2Learn]
NatFL Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/11/12
Posts: 19
Thank you everyone! I see positive points to both instruments. Unfortunately my budget is low enough that anytime I think of buying the CN33, I freak out and tell myself, "You cannot afford a $2000+ instrument!"

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#1847733 - 02/19/12 09:42 AM Re: Availability [Re: NatFL]
shgmd Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/25/11
Posts: 34
Loc: NY
I haven't been able to find a store with a CE220 to try out yet. My local Kawai store in Long Island (Frank and Camille's) still has the CE200 and isn't sure when they will be getting the CE220 in stock. Since my old Clavinova 300 is turning 25 years old this year, I had wanted to get a new digital piano. I had liked the keyboard action on the CE200 but wasn't impressed with the sound. I had been leaning towards the Yamaha YDP-181, which has decent key action and a good sound (and in my under $2,000 price range), but I really want to wait to try out the CE220. Hopefully they'll be in stores soon. Does anyone know if they will only be in Kawai piano stores? My local Sam Ash used to stock the CE200, but they don't have either the CE200 or the CE220 at this point. Thanks.

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#1847745 - 02/19/12 10:07 AM Re: Availability [Re: Fun2Learn]
Kawai James Online   content
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 8388
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
shgmd, if your local Sam Ash stocked the CE200, they should stock the CE220 too...once the back orders are cleared.

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1847793 - 02/19/12 11:48 AM Re: Availability [Re: Fun2Learn]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3474
Loc: Pennsylvania
The 220 has the second generation harmonic imaging, which is a pretty significant step up from the original version. I mean, it's the same basic sound, but better. You might like it better.

The YDP 181 (or 161) is a pretty decent piano too, though.

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#1847881 - 02/19/12 02:56 PM Re: Availability [Re: gvfarns]
shgmd Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/25/11
Posts: 34
Loc: NY
Thanks, Kawai James and gvfarns. I believe that either the YPD-181 or CE220 will be significant steps up from the original Clavinova that I have used all these years - both in the actions and in the sounds smile!

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#1847932 - 02/19/12 04:42 PM Re: Availability [Re: gvfarns]
Kawai James Online   content
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 8388
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By: gvfarns
The 220 has the second generation harmonic imaging, which is a pretty significant step up from the original version. I mean, it's the same basic sound, but better. You might like it better.


Actually, the main piano sound(s) are different - the CE220 utilises 88-key sampling, and therefore draws upon audio data from a more modern recording session.

A brief history of Kawai's (recent) piano sound:

- Harmonic Imaging
- Harmonic Imaging (HI), 88-key sampling *
- Progressive Harmonic Imaging (PHI), 88-key sampling *
- Ultra Progressive Harmonic Imaging (UPHI), 88-key sampling *

* = utilise audio data from same recording session

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

Top
#1847958 - 02/19/12 05:26 PM Re: Availability [Re: Fun2Learn]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3474
Loc: Pennsylvania
Interesting. What I meant is that it has the same basic character (i.e., a Kawai EX piano in the anechoic chamber and the sonic signature of harmonic imaging). Just a newer, improved version (apparently of both the recording session and the technology).

Thanks for giving us the information about the recording sessions. Interesting indeed!


Edited by gvfarns (02/19/12 05:27 PM)

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#1848009 - 02/19/12 06:38 PM Re: Availability [Re: Kawai James]
NatFL Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/11/12
Posts: 19
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
NatFL, yes, the CE220 and CN33 are quite similar. I definitely prefer the cabinet design of the CN33 over the CE220, however in terms of specifications, the wooden key action is arguably the winner.

Cheers,
James
x


Okay, I've looked at detailed pictures of both and I can't really see a difference between the two cabinet designs. The display area looks a little more bulky to me on the CE220. Is this what you mean? P.S. Thanks for all the information you've shared about both models!

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#1848069 - 02/19/12 08:25 PM Re: Availability [Re: Fun2Learn]
Kawai James Online   content
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 8388
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
NatFL, it's just my subjective, personal opinion, however I feel that the CN33 cabinet design is more elegant than the CE220.

CN33:


CE220:

(image from Kawai America website)

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

Top
#1849949 - 02/23/12 02:00 AM Re: Availability [Re: Fun2Learn]
fnx Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/12/12
Posts: 5
Loc: Belmont, CA
I've ordered a CE220 at the beginning of the month. I was expecting it this week, but I've heard back from my dealer that it will be delay a couple more weeks. Given the delay I am offered the chance to cancel the order.

Meanwhile I found on craigslist an used MP10 for $1500. MP10 is certainly going to be improvement, all I need is to get a stand and some speakers. Any suggestions on what speakers would go with it?

I do have a home theater amp connected to a pair of B&W Matrix 8.1, perhaps I could just hook them up.
_________________________
Phoenix Tong :: Programmer :: Belmont, CA :: Piano dad :: Kawai MP10, Grotrian Model 189

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#1858060 - 03/07/12 09:18 PM Re: Availability [Re: Fun2Learn]
NatFL Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/11/12
Posts: 19
Has anyone picked up a CE220 yet? I'm anxious to see some pictures of it and read reviews. I'm seriously considering this model. After getting reacquainted with piano during a visit to my family's place this weekend, I am *itching* to finally make my DP purchase! :-)

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#1859000 - 03/09/12 01:42 PM Re: Availability [Re: NatFL]
shgmd Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/25/11
Posts: 34
Loc: NY
I am also very anxiously waiting for the CE220 to be available to try it out. I had previously tried out the CE200 and liked the action, but wasn't too impressed with the sound. As I am looking in the $1500-$2000 max. range, I have also included on my "short" list the Yamaha YDP-181 and the Roland RP-301. When I recently tried out the latter, I was actually surprised by how much I liked the "ivory-feel" touch and the piano sounds. As a classically-trained pianist, I am most interested in good piano action and sound, not needing other bells and whistles.
My local Kawai dealer wasn't quite sure how soon the CE-220 was going to be coming in, and at my local Sam Ash store, which had previously stocked the CE200, the salesperson I had spoken with had not even heard about the CE220. Hope it's here soon!

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#1860746 - 03/12/12 10:16 PM Re: Availability [Re: NatFL]
shgmd Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/25/11
Posts: 34
Loc: NY
My local Kawai salesperson (Frank and Camille's of Long Island, NY) called me today to tell me that she doesn't expect to get the CE220 in store until April or May.

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