Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Gifts and supplies for the musician
SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) Pianoteq
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
Ad (Piano Sing)
How to Make Your Piano Sing
Who's Online
167 registered (accordeur, ando, Anita Potter, ABC Vermonter, activee, 45 invisible), 1696 Guests and 18 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Pianos
Topic Options
#1860982 - 03/13/12 10:32 AM Liebestraume, help!!!
Beethoven747-400 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/24/11
Posts: 126
Loc: Perth, Australia
Hi guys! I'm learning Liebestraum (the third one), and I was going fine until I encountered this long chromatic like passage coming down in 3rds. It's at bar 61, I'm okay playing the right hand but playing the left hand is... not working for me. How would you practice this? My teacher suggested playing each note double.


So... Any suggestions??

Brandon.
_________________________
YouTube Channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/brandonscherrer?feature=mhee

Top
Ad 800 (Pearl River)
Pearl River World's Best Selling Piano
#1860992 - 03/13/12 10:49 AM Re: Liebestraume, help!!! [Re: Beethoven747-400]
LadyChen Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/25/12
Posts: 521
Loc: Canada
Hi Brandon,
I don't have the score near me, so I'm not sure of the exact passage, but I kind of recall it. Your teacher's suggestion of playing each note twice will help. Some other practice techniques are:

- Breaking down the passage into small groups of notes -- for example, you could work on each group of 4 notes separately. Play the first four notes, pause, play the next four notes, pause, etc, until the end of the passage. Once this is feeling easier, make your groups bigger -- play 6 or 8 notes in a row before pausing. Keep doing this until you are able to play the whole passage without stopping.

- Applying different rhythms to the passage. Instead of all equal values, play the passage as half-note quarter quarter. Then change it up -- quarter quarter half-note. Or quarter half-note quarter. As you work up speed, you can think of the rhythms in sixteenths instead of quarters (two sixteenths followed by an eighth, and other variations).

Two important things are:
- SLOW practice -- get it right at a speed you can handle instead of fumbling through the passage at the prescribed speed.
- consistent fingering -- work out the best fingering for the passage and then always practice using the exact same fingering

Top
#1861013 - 03/13/12 11:24 AM Re: Liebestraume, help!!! [Re: Beethoven747-400]
zrtf90 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/29/12
Posts: 2458
Loc: Ireland (ex England)
What do you mean by "each note double"?
LadyChen has understood it to be a condensed version of the old 4-3-2-1 trick, playing four of each note, then three, etc.
My immediate response would be each pair played as a double third (either repeated with each RH note or every alt. RH note). This is a simple minor third chromatic scale perhaps with altered fingering.
If LadyChen's advice isn't helping, you might try amplifying what you mean by "not working for me".

Edit: by a 'simple' minor third chromatic scale I mean an unaltered one!


Edited by zrtf90 (03/13/12 11:26 AM)
_________________________
Richard

Top
#1861031 - 03/13/12 11:47 AM Re: Liebestraume, help!!! [Re: zrtf90]
Mark_C Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19873
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: zrtf90
What do you mean by "each note double"?....

I think I know because it's a tool that one of my teachers recommended (which I find very helpful) and she used the same term.

It meant striking each note or chord twice.
_________________________
"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)

Top
#1861037 - 03/13/12 12:05 PM Re: Liebestraume, help!!! [Re: Mark_C]
LadyChen Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/25/12
Posts: 521
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: Mark_C

It meant striking each note or chord twice.


That was my understanding as well.

Top
#1861040 - 03/13/12 12:15 PM Re: Liebestraume, help!!! [Re: Beethoven747-400]
bennevis Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5562
It's been a long time since I last played it, but I remember that passage, and how I mastered it (without asking my teacher - it was one of the pieces I learnt to play for myself simply because I liked it). I treated it as a purely technical exercise, like scales, at first accenting all the notes on the beat using a fingering that suited me, then practising just that passage endlessly (while thinking of dinner...) at a slow speed until it was fully ingrained into my muscle memory, when I then speeded it up gradually, and put it together with the RH.

This is the way I approach all similar passages of this nature: others might have methods that work better for them.
_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

Top
#1861067 - 03/13/12 01:07 PM Re: Liebestraume, help!!! [Re: Beethoven747-400]
zrtf90 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/29/12
Posts: 2458
Loc: Ireland (ex England)
Mark C and Lady Chen,
Yep! That's what I went on to say. smile

A condensed version of the old 4-3-2-1 trick.

Perhaps I should have I have learned it as an extended version of the 'double' trick!

But thank you, never-the-less.
_________________________
Richard

Top
#1861072 - 03/13/12 01:21 PM Re: Liebestraume, help!!! [Re: zrtf90]
Mark_C Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19873
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: zrtf90
....Yep! That's what I went on to say. smile....

I know! Just adding a vote. smile
_________________________
"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)

Top
#1861073 - 03/13/12 01:21 PM Re: Liebestraume, help!!! [Re: zrtf90]
LadyChen Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/25/12
Posts: 521
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: zrtf90
Mark C and Lady Chen,
Yep! That's what I went on to say. smile

A condensed version of the old 4-3-2-1 trick.

Perhaps I should have I have learned it as an extended version of the 'double' trick!

But thank you, never-the-less.


I've actually never heard of the 4-3-2-1 trick. Or.. it's possible that my teacher mentioned it to me when I was a teenager and i failed to "hear" her because it sounded like too much work! lol

Really, we all know what it's like to struggle with a difficult passage. There is a LH scale passage in one my my sonatas that gets me every time. I spent hours using all the techniques mentioned here and others (my husband was ready to throw me and the piano out of the house..), and then went to my lesson and of course messed it up again. And then my teacher says, "You need to break it down into different little rhythms.. blah blah blah" and I tried not to explode with rage and frustration mad. Oh the joys of this wonderful instrument...

Top
#1861412 - 03/13/12 10:00 PM Re: Liebestraume, help!!! [Re: LadyChen]
Mark_C Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19873
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: LadyChen
I've actually never heard of the 4-3-2-1 trick....

Me neither, and it strikes me as mostly a waste of time (and needlessly complex), compared to just "doubling."

I've sometimes done a tiny bit of "tripling" or "quadrupling" to help making a tough passage extra-secure, but even in those cases "doubling" is most of what I do, and I think in most instances doubling is plenty.
_________________________
"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)

Top
#1861418 - 03/13/12 10:15 PM Re: Liebestraume, help!!! [Re: LadyChen]
Damon Online   happy
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6251
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: LadyChen

Two important things are:
- SLOW practice -- get it right at a speed you can handle instead of fumbling through the passage at the prescribed speed.
- consistent fingering -- work out the best fingering for the passage and then always practice using the exact same fingering


What she said.

This is the most important thing IMO. Resist the urge to play it up to tempo. Always play it at a speed you can do accurately. Always practice it under tempo. The speed will come.
_________________________
It's been scientifically proven that Horowitz sucks.

Top
#1861533 - 03/14/12 04:30 AM Re: Liebestraume, help!!! [Re: Beethoven747-400]
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4263
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
Liszt Consolation 3 ... m63

Sorry chaps ... but must question the doubling of notes to m63 ...
presumably to avoid having to play the full small chord.

Splitting the measure into 8 ... the method works for
F, Db and Bb but comes unstuck at the next “doubling”
which doesn’t line up ... the notes being Gb and Ab.

Top
#1861536 - 03/14/12 04:47 AM Re: Liebestraume, help!!! [Re: btb]
currawong Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5976
Loc: Down Under
Originally Posted By: btb
Liszt Consolation 3 ... m63
Sorry chaps ... but must question the doubling of notes to m63 ... presumably to avoid having to play the full small chord.
The thread is about the 3rd of the Liebesträume, not the Consolations.
_________________________
Du holde Kunst...

Top
#1861539 - 03/14/12 05:21 AM Re: Liebestraume, help!!! [Re: Beethoven747-400]
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4263
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
Thanks currawong ... as usual I've gone off half-cocked ... must check my specs ... duck everybody!!

Top
#1861541 - 03/14/12 05:34 AM Re: Liebestraume, help!!! [Re: btb]
currawong Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5976
Loc: Down Under
Originally Posted By: btb
... must check my specs ...
Here, try mine smile
~O^O~
_________________________
Du holde Kunst...

Top
#1861575 - 03/14/12 08:14 AM Re: Liebestraume, help!!! [Re: Beethoven747-400]
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4263
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
Liebestraume no. 3 by Liszt ... measure 61

Minor third chromatic passage (cascade) in both hands (thanks zrtf90) ... but a bit tricky, in that the meshing product of LH and RH hands (looks a bit like my electric hedge clippers ... mind your fingers)

although consistent in pattern, has the RH chiming alternately at a spread of 4.5 and 1 whole tones to the LH ... sadly the only way to get the dratted passage right is to do what the other chaps suggest and slowly build up a separate hand action to eventually mesh the two hands.

http://www.pianoworld.com/Uploads/files/m61liebestraume.JPG

Top
#1861654 - 03/14/12 10:58 AM Re: Liebestraume, help!!! [Re: Mark_C]
zrtf90 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/29/12
Posts: 2458
Loc: Ireland (ex England)
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
...the 4-3-2-1 trick...strikes me as mostly a waste of time...compared to just "doubling."

It does seem a waste of time but it is more active than VERY slow playing (which I also use) and helps memorising. smile
_________________________
Richard

Top
#1862403 - 03/15/12 09:27 AM Re: Liebestraume, help!!! [Re: Beethoven747-400]
Beethoven747-400 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/24/11
Posts: 126
Loc: Perth, Australia
Thank you all! I've tried all the points suggested and gradually found myself playing the passage easier. Good points LadyChen! I always have to fight the tendency to speed up and try to get it quickly, I guess slow practise in this passage will be the best option.

What exactly is the 4-3-2-1 trick?

Maybe when i'm confident enough i'll record my playing and post it here!


Edited by Beethoven747-400 (03/15/12 09:28 AM)
_________________________
YouTube Channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/brandonscherrer?feature=mhee

Top
#1862519 - 03/15/12 01:25 PM Re: Liebestraume, help!!! [Re: Beethoven747-400]
Mark_C Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19873
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Beethoven747-400
What exactly is the 4-3-2-1 trick?

Don't worry about it. grin
BTW it's not a 'trick,' just a method, and IMO not one worth worrying about.

Just do the doubling.
_________________________
"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)

Top
#1862621 - 03/15/12 04:06 PM Re: Liebestraume, help!!! [Re: Beethoven747-400]
LadyChen Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/25/12
Posts: 521
Loc: Canada
Glad to hear you're making progress and I look forward to hearing a recording some day!

Top
#1862783 - 03/15/12 09:07 PM Re: Liebestraume, help!!! [Re: Beethoven747-400]
ps1 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/24/12
Posts: 12
This is quite a difficult passage and takes a lot of practice to get. The LH is playing descending chromatic minor thirds, and the RH descending chromatic major thirds.

I practice this by going both directions hands separately.. IOW, down and up with the left hand, then the right. Then I change the LH to major thirds and the right to minor... IOW, reversing roles, so to speak. And I do short little groups of 4, then five, both up and down. Then on top of this, you should learn to play non-broken chromatic thirds (which is the same fingering as the broken), both major and minor,both hands up and down.

Since the passage starts in an awkward position for the LH, first learn it in a lower register so you get the correct feel and momentum of it.

This thing just takes a lot of time and effort. But once you have it, especially if you practice all the permutations I mention, then if you ever encounter this or something similar in any piece, you really won't have to practice it much.

Liszt LOVED these types of passages, and his works are full of all sorts of complicated chromatic articulated passages.

Top

Moderator:  Brendan, Kreisler 
What's Hot!!
Christmas Header
Christmas Lights at Piano World Headquarters in Maine 2014
-------------------
The December Free Piano Newsletter
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
-------------------
PIANO BOOKS
Interesting books about the piano, pianists, piano history, biographies, memoirs and more!
(ad) Yamaha CP Music Rest Promo
Yamaha CP Music Rest Promo
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Knabe Pianos
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
Sheet Music Plus (125)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
New Topics - Multiple Forums
is my piano tunable
by d3c0
12/22/14 05:45 PM
SSHD running VST
by daz100
12/22/14 05:01 PM
do you recommend further service?
by ShannonG
12/22/14 04:34 PM
Is this now real enough?
by Philip_Johnston
12/22/14 04:21 PM
Quick question
by Phil Greenough
12/22/14 03:51 PM
Forum Stats
77396 Members
42 Forums
160065 Topics
2350600 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
Gift Ideas for Music Lovers!
Find the Perfect Gift for the Music Lovers on your List!
Visit our online store today.

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
|
Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission